Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Barrister]

I am a non union member.  Can I work for General Motors, not join UAW, receive lower wages than union members, and survive?

I work in the German auto industry and I am not a member of IG Metall (the German UAW) and I am certainly not required to join them either (that would violate the freedom of occupation and association). However, the bargaining on work conditions (hours, salary, etc.) they make applies to me too unless I get promoted to a management position.

I have a 35 hour work week.

I am in the same position.  Under something called the Rand Formula I can choose to not become a union member - however the union will still negotiate my working conditions for me, and I still get to pay union dues.

[Josquius]

Unions are linked to organised crime?

[crazy canuck]

Unions are linked to organised crime?

I am going to assume that is a sarcasm.

[Zanza]

and I still get to pay union dues.

I don't pay them a dime as I am not a member.

[Barrister]

Thanks for rubbing that in. 

[The Brain]

Unions are bad as a concept. In practice they are horribly damaging and suck man ass like it's going out of style. They are organized crime, even if in Sweden they aren't in name. Since the fucking Reds made their protection racket legal.

[Zanza]

4) The one thing most union members dont understand about being in a union is that they give up all their individual rights to sue or take any action in the employment realm.  If the union doesnt support them they are out in the cold.  Unfortunately this happens more then union supporters would like to admit.

That's interesting. I am fairly certain that's not the case here. I can sue my employer for whatever I want. I am not sure if my employer is allowed to, but I would be allowed to negotiate my own work conditions if I felt inclined to do so. I guess their contract with the union forbids them to make special conditions for individual employees, but that's a limitation they entered voluntarily.

[crazy canuck]

That's interesting. I am fairly certain that's not the case here. I can sue my employer for whatever I want. I am not sure if my employer is allowed to, but I would be allowed to negotiate my own work conditions if I felt inclined to do so. I guess their contract with the union forbids them to make special conditions for individual employees, but that's a limitation they entered voluntarily.

Then your system is very different.  What is a union for in your system?  Do they not handle grievances?  Do employers have to deal with both the union and you?  Sounds a bit chaotic to me.

[Savonarola]

Unions are linked to organised crime?

  Say it ain't so! 

One of my favorite tales of good old fashioned union organization comes from Detroit of the 1920's, related by the Detroit News:

With their numbers swelled by the influx of mobsters from other cities who came to Detroit to cash in on the golden harvest of Prohibition, the Purple Gang prospered. The mob soon branched out into other rackets. During a period of strife in the Detroit area cleaning industry, the Purple Gang was used as terrorists by corrupt labor leaders to keep union members in line and to harass non-union independents. This conflict became known as the Cleaners and Dyers War. Bombings, thefts, beatings, and murder were all methods employed by the Purples to enforce union policy. They were paid handsomely for their services. The labor war ended with the Purple Gang Trial of 1928 in which all of the Purple Gangster defendants were eventually acquitted. The gang emerged from the trial unscathed and became the dominant power in the Detroit underworld. The Purples ruled the Detroit underworld for approximately five years from 1927 to 1932.

The conflict started over something like a 5 cent per shirt price raise the union shops wanted to enforce and ended up with The Purple Gang bombing non-union shops. 

[Sheilbh]

Unions are linked to organised crime?

I am going to assume that is a sarcasm.

Not at all.  It's totally alien to the British experience of trade unions


I'm very pro

[The Brain]

Unions are linked to organised crime?

I am going to assume that is a sarcasm.

Not at all.  It's totally alien to the British experience of trade unions

Yeah that's why Maggie had to break them.

[Zanza]

Then your system is very different.  What is a union for in your system?  Do they not handle grievances?  Do employers have to deal with both the union and you?  Sounds a bit chaotic to me.

As far as I know it works like this: if you have a grievance with your employer you can sue them. We have specific administrative courts that solely work on employment issues. If you are a union member, the union will help you with their own lawyers, give you advice and may even finance your court costs. If you aren't a union member, you fight for yourself.

The unions are mainly there for wage bargaining and general conditions like work hours or so. My work contract just states: "All conditions from the wage bargaining agreement apply."

[Zanza]

Not at all.  It's totally alien to the British experience of trade unions

I haven't heard about a relation between the unions and organized crime in Germany either.

[vinraith]

The fundamental idea of labor organizing to avoid abuse by management is good. The way it's presently manifest in this country isn't. Or, to borrow from the Simpsons:

You can't treat the working man this way.  One day, we'll form a union
   and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve!  Then we'll go
   too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!

[crazy canuck]

Zanza, in the Canadian system all workplace disputes are worked out between the Union and the Employer.  The worker in question is a mere witness to what occurred.  The Union has a duty to fairly represent the worker but fair representation does not go as far as doing what the worker wants.  The union is free to tell the worker that it will not arbitrate the workers grievance if the union believes that is the best course for the collective of all the workers.