Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[DontSayBanana]

Seems like we're solidly anti-union in the gay marriage thread; wanted to get a better idea of where we stand on this.

I'm against. My rationale is that, while Strix is claiming that to be against unions is to be against free market, I think it's the other way around: unions subsist by restricting the market, and if their collective bargaining agreements are ever threatened, their recourse is to restrict it further by striking. Unions also encourage disparate pay practices, citing the United Auto Workers' recent grandstanding as an extreme example.

Honestly, I'm stymied as to how unions have managed to keep going; even those unions that offer apprenticeships aren't cost effective for employers or when their training is matched up against comparable outside education.

Summary: I'm against unions because they're mob rule getting in the way of free market.

[citizen k]

 

[Razgovory]

Actually that was me.

It would seem to me that a Union is at it's most basic an independent, non-government agency which creates a contract with a business.  This seems fairly free market.  I don't see how this can viewed as "anti-free market" any more then if two business created a contract.  Now a lot of people confuse "free-market" with "pro-business" which might be the problem here.  A Union can make a business less profitable (thereby restricting it) but lots of stuff in the free-market does that.  For instance another business competing with the first business will "restrict it".  But it's not anti-free market.

In fact the only real way to get rid of Unions would be coercion or legal prohibition.  These both seem fairly "non-free market" solutions.

[Monoriu]

Actually that was me.

It would seem to me that a Union is at it's most basic an independent, non-government agency which creates a contract with a business.  This seems fairly free market.  I don't see how this can viewed as "anti-free market" any more then if two business created a contract.  Now a lot of people confuse "free-market" with "pro-business" which might be the problem here.  A Union can make a business less profitable (thereby restricting it) but lots of stuff in the free-market does that.  For instance another business competing with the first business will "restrict it".  But it's not anti-free market.

In fact the only real way to get rid of Unions would be coercion or legal prohibition.  These both seem fairly "non-free market" solutions.

I am a non union member.  Can I work for General Motors, not join UAW, receive lower wages than union members, and survive? 

[Razgovory]

Actually that was me.

It would seem to me that a Union is at it's most basic an independent, non-government agency which creates a contract with a business.  This seems fairly free market.  I don't see how this can viewed as "anti-free market" any more then if two business created a contract.  Now a lot of people confuse "free-market" with "pro-business" which might be the problem here.  A Union can make a business less profitable (thereby restricting it) but lots of stuff in the free-market does that.  For instance another business competing with the first business will "restrict it".  But it's not anti-free market.

In fact the only real way to get rid of Unions would be coercion or legal prohibition.  These both seem fairly "non-free market" solutions.

I am a non union member.  Can I work for General Motors, not join UAW, receive lower wages than non-union members, and survive?

You are pretty cheap.  I think you can live on the lower wage.

[Admiral Yi]

It would seem to me that a Union is at it's most basic an independent, non-government agency which creates a contract with a business.  This seems fairly free market.  I don't see how this can viewed as "anti-free market" any more then if two business created a contract.

When a business is offered goods or services by another business on terms it doesn't like they are free to decline and turn to another business.  The same is often not true of the employer/union relationship.

Neither is the market free, as Mono already pointed out, for employees who want to work but not join the union.

[Slargos]

I think the Union is a conceptually good idea.

In practice though, they seem to often cause more trouble than they fix.

[Habbaku]

It would seem to me that a Union is at it's most basic an independent, non-government agency which creates a contract with a business.  This seems fairly free market.

It is very free-market and no one in their right mind would ever consider banning all unions.  The trouble comes when the union uses its position of representation to attain political power and gets the government to mandate things on its behalf.  That is when it goes out of the realm of the free market and into the realm of mercantilism, which is why unions are so reviled by many.

Union are not inherently bad, just as businesses aren't.  They are mere entities.

[Alatriste]

What do we mean by 'Union'? Because the term is applied to at least three different concepts. To quote the Wikipedia:

"Unions may organize a particular section of skilled workers (craft unionism), a cross-section of workers from various trades (general unionism), or attempt to organize all workers within a particular industry (industrial unionism)."

Unions in Britain are completely different from French or Spanish unions, which are completely different from US unions, etc, etc... In Spain, for example, workers can't be forced to join a union, closed shops and union shops are illegal (our main problem with unions is their tendence to enter politics).

Regarding the original question my own opinion is a bit like Churchill's on democracy. Unionism is the worst form of workers defence except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time... and unions can be royal pain in the ass, but without them what could we workers rely on? The good will, humanitarian feelings and stern honesty of bosses, entrepreneurs and businessmen?

@Habbaku

And how is that different from business associations and lobbies trying to influence official policy and "get the government to mandate things on its behalf"?

[Admiral Yi]

Regarding the original question my own opinion is a bit like Churchill's on democracy. Unionism is the worst form of workers defence except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time... and unions can be royal pain in the ass, but without them what could we workers rely on? The good will, humanitarian feelings and stern honesty of bosses, entrepreneurs and businessmen?

The profit motive. 

[The Larch]

Going out on a limb, I'd say that, roughly, European posters will vote pro union and American posters anti union. But as Alatriste said, unions are very different from one country to another.

Personally I think they're necessary, even if at some points they're pin headed in the way they negotiate and act.

[Martinus]

You have to remember that the US model of trade unions is not the only one.

For example, here, most of the employee rights are regulated by labour law, which is universally applicable. Unions present in individual companies serve mainly as a watchdog of these laws being observed, and when they negotiate, they negotiate on behalf of all employees (i.e. they can't strike a sweet deal just for union members at a given company, and leave non-unionized employees out in cold). This makes them much less influential and there is much less corruption involved, I guess.

[Martinus]

That being said, only an idiot would claim that a free unrestricted market is able to adjudicate fairly and genuinely between an employer and a single employee. The difference in economic power is so great then it is simply impossible to expect the relationship be anything else but a dictate of the employer (unless the employee is extremely qualified/unique).

It's the same argument as with antitrust law and consumer protection - only by restricting absolute economic freedom of undertakings, you are able to preserve free market in the long run - otherwise unrestricted freedom quickly leads to monopolization.

[Martinus]

When a business is offered goods or services by another business on terms it doesn't like they are free to decline and turn to another business.

Ever heard of monopolies?

[Admiral Yi]

Ever heard of monopolies?

Interesting you should mention monopolies.  I was just on the verge of responding to your previous post by pointing out that it's based on company town thinking.  IF employees realize that they don't have to work in the mine just because their father and grandfather did, and IF they realize they don't have to live in the same town forever, then the fantastic economic power of the employer is meaningless.  If the mean old mine owner tries to pay them less than the market value of their labor, they can shop their services elsewhere.

As to actual modern day monopolies, I weep for the poor oppressed workers at Microsoft,  but I can't think of many other monopolies.