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Victoria 2

Started by Liep, August 19, 2009, 02:04:54 AM

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alfred russel

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 19, 2009, 01:49:13 PM


I know that is why some fans favor it, but I don't recall the designers ever using that rationale.

If so, it is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea as the ahistorical attemtps to create Great Powers from pygmies is hardly something that should be encouraged by the game structure if avoidable.

Perhaps the major failing of Paradox in all the games I've played since EU1 is that they try to make minor countries playable to a point they can become great powers. The original concept of EU1 was that you could only play great powers, and even at the outset with EU2 the concept was that you can play the minors, but there were no assurances about gameplay. Now it seems a world conquer needs to be possible with every playable country.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

The Minsky Moment

At least with EU the timescale is such as to give a surface plausibility to the notion that e.g. a little duchy of Brandenburg could evenutally work itself up to be a major player.

But Victoria covers a much shorter period, and one where the bigger powers tended to augment their advantages over the smaller ones rather than the other way around.  The Dutch were still big players in the 18th century but simply couldn't keep up in the 19th because of lack of scale.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Barrister

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 19, 2009, 06:16:50 PM
At least with EU the timescale is such as to give a surface plausibility to the notion that e.g. a little duchy of Brandenburg could evenutally work itself up to be a major player.

But Victoria covers a much shorter period, and one where the bigger powers tended to augment their advantages over the smaller ones rather than the other way around.  The Dutch were still big players in the 18th century but simply couldn't keep up in the 19th because of lack of scale.

Even in the Victoria timeframe some degree of consolidation was possible.   Savoy went on to unify Italy and gain a few minor colonies, for the biggest example I can think of.  Tiny Belgium managed to gain some significant colonies for another.

It should be possible for a small country to gain in power and influence.  But yes, world conquest as a concept should be right out.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

dps

In all fairness, in EU2 and EU3, most WC with minor countries is done by very experienced players doing some very gamey, explotative things.

Can't comment on the situation in Vicky, 'cause I never got into it enough to bother with reading AARs.


PRC

#64


Jaron

Winner of THE grumbler point.

PRC


garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Fate

An artist's rendition of Victoria 2 after 10 patch iterations.

Syt

Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2009, 04:22:37 PM
I'll certainly apply for the beta this time round, I'm sitting on top of a treasure trove of Victorian historical material. :w00t:

What use would that be for a Clausewitz engine Paradox game?

I was ecstatic when Vic1 was announced; unfortunately the design was in parts, uhm, flawed (black hole world market, useless excess of trade goods, pop micro madness, etc.). Vic:R adressed some of those, but after seeing the EU3 initial release, the Rome initial release and now the HoI3 release with a joke of a map and some IMO questionable design decisions I'll be verz, verz weary about getting this; in fact I have more faith in AGEOD's turn based offering for the era.

I was beta for Vic (you can thank me for the idea of flavor events  :blush: ), and a mod for half a year, but I was always very lukewarm to the finished product. And I'm also not sure if the team will enjoy working on this one or rather just churn it out to appease the masses (and take their cash, which is a legitimate interest).

I guess if we wanted a truly stellar game from Paradox with all their heartblood in it it would have to be something about the 17th century, i.e. Sweden's most glorious days. Unfortunately I don't trust them to whip up a system that could even remotely recreate the diplomatic intricacies, policies, treacheries (a lot of them character based) etc. of the Thirty Years War, the English or French revolutions or the Holy Roman Empire and periphery (Transylvania, Hungary, Ottomans, Spain, Italy) of the period.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Syt

I look forward to the new EU3 expansion, though.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Warspite

QuoteWhat use would that be for a Clausewitz engine Paradox game?

:huh: Scenario starting data- OOBs, techs, POPs, etc etc
" SIR – I must commend you on some of your recent obituaries. I was delighted to read of the deaths of Foday Sankoh (August 9th), and Uday and Qusay Hussein (July 26th). Do you take requests? "

OVO JE SRBIJA
BUDALO, OVO JE POSTA

Sheilbh

:w00t: Vicky 2 :wub:

The other thing looks good.  Hopefully they move onto CK2 next :mmm:
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

Quote from: Warspite on August 19, 2009, 04:22:37 PM
Hm, I remember doing a lot of work for the Victoria beta (with Hortlund as my immediate supervisor :D). I'll certainly apply for the beta this time round, I'm sitting on top of a treasure trove of Victorian historical material. :w00t:
I was in the Vicky beta.  Did very little and tried to resign because I felt it would be better if they got someone who was actually useful :sadblush:
Let's bomb Russia!

alfred russel

Quote from: Jaron on August 19, 2009, 11:05:27 PM


Very insightful post.

In an odd way. The year is 1836 and we have Italy, Germany, and Turkey on the map. Those could be regions rather than countries, but then we also have Sweden on the map. :huh:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014