Victoria 2

[alfred russel]

I know that is why some fans favor it, but I don't recall the designers ever using that rationale.

If so, it is a terrible, TERRIBLE idea as the ahistorical attemtps to create Great Powers from pygmies is hardly something that should be encouraged by the game structure if avoidable.

Perhaps the major failing of Paradox in all the games I've played since EU1 is that they try to make minor countries playable to a point they can become great powers. The original concept of EU1 was that you could only play great powers, and even at the outset with EU2 the concept was that you can play the minors, but there were no assurances about gameplay. Now it seems a world conquer needs to be possible with every playable country.

[The Minsky Moment]

At least with EU the timescale is such as to give a surface plausibility to the notion that e.g. a little duchy of Brandenburg could evenutally work itself up to be a major player.

But Victoria covers a much shorter period, and one where the bigger powers tended to augment their advantages over the smaller ones rather than the other way around.  The Dutch were still big players in the 18th century but simply couldn't keep up in the 19th because of lack of scale.

[Barrister]

At least with EU the timescale is such as to give a surface plausibility to the notion that e.g. a little duchy of Brandenburg could evenutally work itself up to be a major player.

But Victoria covers a much shorter period, and one where the bigger powers tended to augment their advantages over the smaller ones rather than the other way around.  The Dutch were still big players in the 18th century but simply couldn't keep up in the 19th because of lack of scale.

Even in the Victoria timeframe some degree of consolidation was possible.   Savoy went on to unify Italy and gain a few minor colonies, for the biggest example I can think of.  Tiny Belgium managed to gain some significant colonies for another.

It should be possible for a small country to gain in power and influence.  But yes, world conquest as a concept should be right out.

[dps]

In all fairness, in EU2 and EU3, most WC with minor countries is done by very experienced players doing some very gamey, explotative things.

Can't comment on the situation in Vicky, 'cause I never got into it enough to bother with reading AARs.

[PRC]

[Jaron]

Very insightful post.

[PRC]

Very insightful post.

Try now teacup.

[garbon]

What is that?

[Fate]

An artist's rendition of Victoria 2 after 10 patch iterations.

[Syt]

I'll certainly apply for the beta this time round, I'm sitting on top of a treasure trove of Victorian historical material.

What use would that be for a Clausewitz engine Paradox game?

I was ecstatic when Vic1 was announced; unfortunately the design was in parts, uhm, flawed (black hole world market, useless excess of trade goods, pop micro madness, etc.). Vic:R adressed some of those, but after seeing the EU3 initial release, the Rome initial release and now the HoI3 release with a joke of a map and some IMO questionable design decisions I'll be verz, verz weary about getting this; in fact I have more faith in AGEOD's turn based offering for the era.

I was beta for Vic (you can thank me for the idea of flavor events  ), and a mod for half a year, but I was always very lukewarm to the finished product. And I'm also not sure if the team will enjoy working on this one or rather just churn it out to appease the masses (and take their cash, which is a legitimate interest).

I guess if we wanted a truly stellar game from Paradox with all their heartblood in it it would have to be something about the 17th century, i.e. Sweden's most glorious days. Unfortunately I don't trust them to whip up a system that could even remotely recreate the diplomatic intricacies, policies, treacheries (a lot of them character based) etc. of the Thirty Years War, the English or French revolutions or the Holy Roman Empire and periphery (Transylvania, Hungary, Ottomans, Spain, Italy) of the period.

[Syt]

I look forward to the new EU3 expansion, though.

[Warspite]

What use would that be for a Clausewitz engine Paradox game?

Scenario starting data- OOBs, techs, POPs, etc etc

[Sheilbh]

Vicky 2

The other thing looks good.  Hopefully they move onto CK2 next

[Sheilbh]

Hm, I remember doing a lot of work for the Victoria beta (with Hortlund as my immediate supervisor ). I'll certainly apply for the beta this time round, I'm sitting on top of a treasure trove of Victorian historical material.

I was in the Vicky beta.  Did very little and tried to resign because I felt it would be better if they got someone who was actually useful :sadblush:

[alfred russel]

Very insightful post.

In an odd way. The year is 1836 and we have Italy, Germany, and Turkey on the map. Those could be regions rather than countries, but then we also have Sweden on the map.