Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

Wow. 

It is a good reminder how the currently leading democratic modern states were built, or rather, dominated, by the kind of robber baron state embezzling criminal bastards that you can see in places like Russia or Hungary nowadays.

Also reaffirms my view that such bastards didn't go away in those countries (like the UK) they have just tempered their methods and ambitions to suit the times (unlike, say, Hungary or Russia, where they just attempt and manage to destroy the times and force their countries backwards).

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/jun/09/uk-protests-black-lives-matter-colston-statue-rhodes-live?page=with:block-5edf42878f0883ec2fc1d9f1#block-5edf42878f0883ec2fc1d9f1

Dr Shola Mos-Shogbamimu was on Good Morning Britain a little while ago discussing the removal of the Edward Colston statue. She said:

Properties can be replaced, black lives can't. And it is indefensible for those who suggest otherwise. So what we saw there is an act of resistance and the hypocrisy is palpable. Think about the fact that when Saddam Hussein's statute was destroyed, people in this country hailed it as an act of resistance. But here you have the destruction of the statue of a slave trader condemned as lawless.

[Josquius]

Yeah, just read a piece in the FT that went through most of the examples I mentioned.

Another they mentioned, who you query if they should have a statue is Viscount Melville in Edinburgh:

Slave trader, very successful machine politician who successfully pushed back the abolition of the slave trade by about a decade, huge supporter of the East India Company, scourge of radicals in post-Revolutionary Britain and the last person to be impeached by the House of Lords (for misappropriation of funds - he was acquitted but disgraced and removed from the Privy Council etc). Obviously he was  a minister in the Pitt government, but that is the sort of career that slightly makes you wonder why he ever had such a grand statue in the first place

Whats the odds on that same plinth, in 2050, being topped by a statue of Nicola Sturgeon instead? :p


I'm proud that our focal statue is the far more kosher Earl Grey

[garbon]

And Banksy's idea of what to do with the plinth in Bristol.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBNmTVZsDKS

What should we do with the empty plinth in the middle of Bristol?

Here's an idea that caters for both those who miss the Colston statue and those who don't.
We drag him out the water, put him back on the plinth, tie cable round his neck and commission some life size bronze statues of protestors in the act of pulling him down. Everyone happy. A famous day commemorated.

[Sheilbh]

Weird. I like a Banksy idea

Edit: Also looked up statues in Liverpool and I can't see any slave traders or euphemistic "merchants" which is surprising. In terms of business/philanthropists there's lots of engineers (like Stephenson etc) and lots of bankers.

Also found out that apparently the statue that's considered the most artistically accomplished is of a very controversial 19th century anti-Catholic preacher, Hugh Boyd M'Neile:

I would make it a capital offence to administer the confession in this country. Transportation [to the colonies] would not satisfy me; for that would merely transfer the evil from one part of the world to the other. Capital punishment alone would satisfy me. Death alone would prevent the evil. That is my solid conviction.

Although this is a cracking introduction to a wiki on a cleric:

M'Neile was an influential, well-connected demagogue, a renowned public speaker, an evangelical cleric and a relentless opponent of "Popery", who was permanently inflamed by the ever-increasing number of Irish Roman Catholics in Liverpool. He was infamous for his stirring oratory, his immoderate preaching, his prolific publications, and his inability to accurately construe the meaning of the scripture upon which his diatribes were based (see below). He was just as deeply loved, admired and respected by some, as he was an object of derision and scorn for others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_M%E2%80%98Neile

Ideal candidate for permanent commemoration in a city

[Maladict]

Maybe we should stop putting people on pedestals, both figuratively and literally. At the end of the day they are just people, and somewhat to mostly awful.

[Tamas]

Maybe we should stop putting people on pedestals, both figuratively and literally. At the end of the day they are just people, and somewhat to mostly awful.

Indeed.

[The Brain]

a very controversial 19th century anti-Catholic preacher

[Sheilbh]

So in London:

London statues with slavery links 'should be taken down'
    1 hour ago


Thomas Guy made his fortune through ownership of a large number of shares in the South Sea Company

Statues and street names in London with links to slavery "should be taken down", the city's mayor has said.

Sadiq Khan said he had set up a commission to review the capital's landmarks to ensure they reflect its diversity.

It comes after anti-racism protesters tore down a statue of slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol on Sunday.

The Canal and River Trust has announced it will remove its statue of Robert Milligan, a noted slaveholder.

It follows a campaign to have the statue, which stands outside the Museum of London Docklands, removed.

The Canal and River Trust said it "recognised the wishes of the local community concerning the statue of Robert Milligan".

It said it was working with the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, the Museum of London Docklands and partners in Canary Wharf to have it removed.


Robert Milligan was a noted slaveholder and founder of London's global trade hub, West India Docks

Mr Khan said London had "an uncomfortable truth" with historical links to slavery.

The Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm will review the city's landmarks - including murals, street art, street names, statues and other memorials - and consider which legacies should be celebrated before making recommendations.

Mr Khan said London was "one of the most diverse cities in the world", but said recent Black Lives Matter protests had highlighted that the city's statues, plaques and street names largely reflect Victorian Britain.

"It is an uncomfortable truth that our nation and city owes a large part of its wealth to its role in the slave trade," he said.

"While this is reflected in our public realm, the contribution of many of our communities to life in our capital has been wilfully ignored."

During a Black Lives Matter protest in central London on Sunday, a statue of Sir Winston Churchill in Parliament Square was sprayed with graffiti.

But Mr Khan said he did not consider statues of the likes of Churchill to be included in the review.

He said pupils needed to be educated about famous figures "warts and all" and that "nobody was perfect", including the likes of Churchill, Gandhi and Malcolm X.


A statue of Sir Winston Churchill was sprayed with graffiti during a Black Lives Matter protest

Mr Khan told BBC Radio 4's Today programme he did not have ownership of the statues and the land they are on.

He also said it would be "inappropriate" to single out which statues and street names he thinks should go.

Instead a number of new memorials in the capital have been pledged by Mr Khan, including ones for Stephen Lawrence, the Windrush generation, a National Slavery Museum or memorial and a National Sikh War Memorial.

Campaigns calling for the removal or amendment of monuments celebrating controversial figures have increased in volume around the UK in recent days.

In Oxford, 26 councillors and an MP have called for a statue of imperialist Cecil Rhodes to be removed from an Oxford University college.

A plaque is to be added to a Henry Dundas monument in Edinburgh to "reflect" the city's links with slavery, while the leader of Cardiff Council said he would support the removal of a statue of slave-owner Sir Thomas Picton from the city's civic building.


Sir John Cass (1660-1718) did business with slave agents in Africa and the Caribbean

    Sir Thomas Guy made his fortune through ownership of a very large number of shares in the South Sea Company, whose main purpose was to sell slaves to the Spanish Colonies
    Robert Milligan was a noted West Indian merchant, slaveholder and founder of London's global trade hub, West India Docks.
    Aside from founding an educational charity, Sir John Cass was a major figure in the early development of the slave trade and the Atlantic slave economy, directly dealing with slave agents in the African forts and in the Caribbean

Incidentally I found, what I think is a really good example of using other public art to sort of contest this public space and provide context/argument - which is better than a plaque. It was temporary installation about modern day slavery, but underneath the Colston statue were hundred bodies in the form of a ship (the outline of the ship listed roles linked with modern slavery such as nail bar worker, sex worker, farm worker etc).


Edit: And with that addition it reminds me of the stolpersteins as you might stand in front of the statue or try to read the plaque.

[Syt]

I like that some Tories pulled a publicity stunt where they're seen cleaning paint off Churchill's statue. Of course monument protectors stopped them, pointing out that they were doing more damage and had the statue cleaned by an expert. A black guy. Called Winston.

[The Brain]

Many moons ago a group of people were blowing up statues in Stockholm. IIRC they were just nihilists though.

[celedhring]

There was a slaver statue in Barcelona's seafront. Dude was a patron of the arts and industry, etc, etc... it was finally removed a couple years ago.

Now if they only renamed the street named after a progrom...

[garbon]

I saw Milligan was supposed to be taken down today but there was something about the truck to remove it being too heavy.

[The Brain]

I saw Milligan was supposed to be taken down today but there was something about the truck to remove it being too heavy.

What was his crime? Did he eat a sandwich funny?

[Sheilbh]

Milligan brought down - less spontaneous joy and a lot more health and safety
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/1270420656023314432?s=20