Many killed in Ankara bomb blast

[viper37]

that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow. 

and each of these times, the army kept power for themselves and did not return it until another bloodbath to depose them?
I was rather under the impression that they return power to civilian authorities every time.  Considering that the alternative is a rise in power of religious extremist, I think it was a good thing. But I know, you don't care about these things. Religious extremism has never been a problem for you, no matter where it leads to.

[Razgovory]

that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.

And again you're making this up.  The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there.  The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become.  That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.

No, I didn't make this up.  Erdogan did suppress the military, the military has overthrown the government there several times.  I did not say that defanging the military is what this is about.  I was refuting that.

If he is a fascist dictatorship why did he lose the referendum?  If is he flaming Islamic extremism, where are the are the suicide bombers at Erdogan's command? Where are the fanatical armies of Turkish Islamists invading Israel?  Where are the beheading?  Where is the Sharia law that he has implemented?  Where is the theocracy you told me was coming back in 2013?  Show me!  Show me something solid.

[Razgovory]

You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt.  Go look at the old Egypt thread.  Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street.  Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies.  When people were convicted for their own brutalization.  When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government.  Who spoke up?  Who was happy with it?  Go look at your own goddamn statements.

Egypt and Turkey are totally separate situations.

Eygpt is a third world country without a history of democracy that is quite unstable at the moment and has a series of unappealing factions vying for power.

Turkey has been (albeit tenuously) a first world country attempting to integrate into european institutions.

Okay, then why talking about the same solution for both countries?

[Razgovory]

You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt.  Go look at the old Egypt thread.  Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street.  Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies.  When people were convicted for their own brutalization.  When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government.  Who spoke up?  Who was happy with it?  Go look at your own goddamn statements.

You don't need to give us the benefit of the doubt.  We'll live without it. 

It would help us tremendously though if you did give this issue some deep thought.  Under your currently stated principles, wishing that Wehrmacht overthrew Hitler makes you a horrible human being.  Hitler was popularly elected after all, whereas German junta would most certainly not be.  Then again, Germany did get a pretty good democracy after Hitler, so maybe you have a point.

A Hitler comparison? Seriously.  Erdogan has been President for 13 years.  In that time Hitler passed an enabling act, outlawed opposing political parties, waged war on most of the world, killed 10 million people in camps, committed suicide and was burned up by gasoline.  How far along that road are we with Erdgoan?

[Razgovory]

that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow. 

and each of these times, the army kept power for themselves and did not return it until another bloodbath to depose them?
I was rather under the impression that they return power to civilian authorities every time.  Considering that the alternative is a rise in power of religious extremist, I think it was a good thing. But I know, you don't care about these things. Religious extremism has never been a problem for you, no matter where it leads to.

And where has his "religious extremism" led too?  He's been charge for over a decade.  Is he actually a religious extremist?  I ask you what I asked DG.  Where is the Sharia law?  Where is his cadres of Suicide bombers?  I'm not seeing it.  Show me.  As far as I can see he's mostly a dingbat who lives in fantasy world of Neo-ottomaism.  The military installed governments did kill people.  They did imprison people with out just cause.  They torture people.  This is on record.  Let me ask you this?  How many murders are justified in preventing a pious Muslim from being elected?  100?  1,000?  100,000?  Give me a number.

[alfred russel]

Okay, then why talking about the same solution for both countries?

We are?

[viper37]

And where has his "religious extremism" led too?  He's been charge for over a decade.  Is he actually a religious extremist?  I ask you what I asked DG.  Where is the Sharia law?  Where is his cadres of Suicide bombers?  I'm not seeing it. 

Look at Venezuela.  Is it better a country now that Chavez and his successor have remodeled it?

[Razgovory]

And where has his "religious extremism" led too?  He's been charge for over a decade.  Is he actually a religious extremist?  I ask you what I asked DG.  Where is the Sharia law?  Where is his cadres of Suicide bombers?  I'm not seeing it. 

Look at Venezuela.  Is it better a country now that Chavez and his successor have remodeled it?

No, No.  You ain't going to dodge this one.  Where is the Sharia law?  He's been President for 13 years, where is Islamic fundamentalism?  Where has his oppression led?  Is the country richer or poorer then it was before?

[Razgovory]

Okay, then why talking about the same solution for both countries?

We are?

Military overthrow has been brought up here, so yes.

[Eddie Teach]

Not all military coups are created equal.

[Razgovory]

Not all military coups are created equal.

Well I would like to know exactly how many murders and imprisonments are acceptable to you guys before we move forward.

[Eddie Teach]

Well I would like to know exactly how many murders and imprisonments are acceptable to you guys before we move forward.

Situationally dependent.

[Admiral Yi]

I am willing to move forward without any murders or imprisonments.

[DGuller]

A Hitler comparison? Seriously.  Erdogan has been President for 13 years.  In that time Hitler passed an enabling act, outlawed opposing political parties, waged war on most of the world, killed 10 million people in camps, committed suicide and was burned up by gasoline.  How far along that road are we with Erdgoan?

Depending on the situation and the strength of institutions, the speed of subversion of democracy is going to be different.  Hitler came into much more favorable conditions for what he was planning to do.  People like Putin, not as much.  And I imagine that Erdogan had even more of the work cut out for him. 

It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up, and it wasn't until 2014 that the Russian society has been whipped into a nationalistic fervor of truly scary magnitude.  And yet I was writing in 2002 on Paradox that Putin was very bad news, and that he was on an apparent course to create a dictatorship.  So, yes, sometimes it takes a while, but that doesn't mean you can't see it coming.  In fact, because you have to erode democracy gradually is precisely why you can see it coming, if you're willing to look.

And here is another part that you're ignoring.  What Putin and Erdogan are touching off is dangerous, and can survive and evolve after them.  That's the biggest reason why they're very dangerous people, even more so that the destruction of democratic institutions by them.

[Razgovory]

A Hitler comparison? Seriously.  Erdogan has been President for 13 years.  In that time Hitler passed an enabling act, outlawed opposing political parties, waged war on most of the world, killed 10 million people in camps, committed suicide and was burned up by gasoline.  How far along that road are we with Erdgoan?

Depending on the situation and the strength of institutions, the speed of subversion of democracy is going to be different.  Hitler came into much more favorable conditions for what he was planning to do.  People like Putin, not as much.  And I imagine that Erdogan had even more of the work cut out for him. 

It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up, and it wasn't until 2014 that the Russian society has been whipped into a nationalistic fervor of truly scary magnitude.  And yet I was writing in 2002 on Paradox that Putin was very bad news, and that he was on an apparent course to create a dictatorship.  So, yes, sometimes it takes a while, but that doesn't mean you can't see it coming.  In fact, because you have to erode democracy gradually is precisely why you can see it coming, if you're willing to look.

And here is another part that you're ignoring.  What Putin and Erdogan are touching off is dangerous, and can survive and evolve after them.  That's the biggest reason why they're very dangerous people, even more so that the destruction of democratic institutions by them.

Okay, so what exactly has Erdogan touched off?  What fruits are there of his alleged Islamic fundamentalism?  I'm not seeing anything.  Are you going to show me something real?  After a while (and it has been a while), people might suspect that this Fascist/Islamic is but a figment of your imagination.