Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Admiral Yi]

Stop the War Statement on Ukraine 22/02/22

Stop the War condemns the movement of Russian forces into eastern Ukraine and urges that they immediately withdraw, alongside the resumption of diplomatic negotiations to resolve the crisis.

This dispute could and should be resolved peacefully, and that remains the only basis for a lasting settlement, rather than the imposition of military solutions.  That it has not been resolved is not, however, the responsibility of the Russian or Ukrainian governments alone.

The conflict is the product of thirty years of failed policies, including the expansion of NATO and US hegemony at the expense of other countries as well as major wars of aggression by the USA, Britain and other NATO powers which have undermined international law and the United Nations.

The British government has played a provocative role in the present crisis, talking up war, decrying diplomacy as appeasement and escalating arms supplies and military deployments to Eastern Europe.

If there is to be a return to diplomacy, as there should be, the British government should pledge to oppose any further eastward expansion of NATO and should encourage a return to the Minsk-2 agreement, already signed by both sides, by all parties as a basis for ending the crisis in relations between Ukraine and Russia.

Beyond that, there now needs to be a unified effort to develop pan-European security arrangements which meet the needs of all states, something that should have been done when the Warsaw Pact was wound up at the end of the Cold War.  The alternative is endless great power conflict with all the attendant waste of resources and danger of bloodshed and destruction.

We send our solidarity to all those campaigning for an end to the war, often under very difficult conditions, in Russia and Ukraine.  Stop the War can best support them by demanding a change in Britain's own policy, which can be seen to have failed.

Quick show of hands: who's more awesome, Bernie or Jeremy?

[Jacob]

I thought this article in the Texas National Security Review on hybrid warfare in Estonia was pretty interesting: https://tnsr.org/2022/01/countering-hybrid-warfare-mapping-social-contracts-to-reinforce-societal-resiliency-in-estonia-and-beyond/ (and IMO has some interesting wider implications).

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - there is a huge gulf between Bernie and Corbyn.

It's just old school Trot anti-imperialism. America is the hegemon, therefore increasing its influence and power is imperialism either by America or by its local elites who benefit from its hegemony, for example, leaders of Eastern European countries who, for some inexplicable reason, are keen on joining NATO. Any state that opposes that is, by definition, anti-imperialist. It might be problematic in regards to human rights or some participation in a war (for example, massing 200,000 troops on the border of a weaker neighbour who you say has no right to exist as a state) - but as an anti-imperialist the priority should be to support/protect their struggle.

[PJL]

I'm fine with NATO not expanding eastwards as long as it's allowed to expand westwards. After all, if you keep going west of the USA, you eventually get to Ukraine.

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah - there is a huge gulf between Bernie and Corbyn.

It's just old school Trot anti-imperialism. America is the hegemon, therefore increasing its influence and power is imperialism either by America or by its local elites who benefit from its hegemony, for example, leaders of Eastern European countries who, for some inexplicable reason, are keen on joining NATO. Any state that opposes that is, by definition, anti-imperialist. It might be problematic in regards to human rights or some participation in a war (for example, massing 200,000 troops on the border of a weaker neighbour who you say has no right to exist as a state) - but as an anti-imperialist the priority should be to support/protect their struggle.

That's very close, if not identical to what US peaceniks think. 

[FunkMonk]

Bernie put out a statement on Twitter going hard on sanctions and putting all the blame on Putin and it seems like a lot of his followers are just not on board with that kind of pro-American imperialist propaganda

[Sophie Scholl]

I consider myself quite far to the Left politically and I absolutely cannot understand the dominance of the pro-Putin/Tankie/Anything but America mob. I think all imperialism is bad. American *and* Russian. That being said, as fucked up as America is and with all of the problematic things that have really been kicking into high gear of late aimed at people like me, the US is still far, far behind Russia in terms of total collapse of rights, freedoms, and being an open society. It is embarrassing and disgusting to watch these people who supposedly desire tolerance, peace, and socialist and leftist idea and ideals bowing before Putin and cheering on his actions. The things they fight so loudly and hard against (for the most part) in the US are all established and cemented into being in Russia, primarily due to their buddy Putin and his cronies. Russia is the endgame for Trumpism in America and apparently a large chunk of the Left is completely fine with supporting that abroad while claiming to fight it at home. The enemy of my enemy is *not* my friend.

[jimmy olsen]

The West should start playing our own propaganda game.

I think casting a Russian-Chinese alliance as the modern Axis would be a good start. And not terribly inaccurate either.

That's not really an alliance, though.

China can and will dictate terms to Russia.

Germany dictated positions to Italy all the time. How is that different?

[Sheilbh]

What are the US internal politics like on this? Is the GOP lining up to support the nation in this moment of crisis? Are they arguing that Biden is "too weak"? Or are they chafing to kiss and make up with Putin sempai once they call the shots again?

I've seen some comments from the right over recent weeks that brought up Biden's supposed collusion with Ukraine and that his constant talking about Russia going to invade would just lead to unnecessary destabilization (or serve to distract from his abysmal approval ratings), but not sure if it's mainstream.

As ever Tucker Carlson has quite the take:
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1496290844797992960?s=20&t=iOij4eqfSg_9zcLgxzi-3g

[FunkMonk]

I consider myself quite far to the Left politically and I absolutely cannot understand the dominance of the pro-Putin/Tankie/Anything but America mob. I think all imperialism is bad. American *and* Russian. That being said, as fucked up as America is and with all of the problematic things that have really been kicking into high gear of late aimed at people like me, the US is still far, far behind Russia in terms of total collapse of rights, freedoms, and being an open society. It is embarrassing and disgusting to watch these people who supposedly desire tolerance, peace, and socialist and leftist idea and ideals bowing before Putin and cheering on his actions. The things they fight so loudly and hard against (for the most part) in the US are all established and cemented into being in Russia, primarily due to their buddy Putin and his cronies. Russia is the endgame for Trumpism in America and apparently a large chunk of the Left is completely fine with supporting that abroad while claiming to fight it at home. The enemy of my enemy is *not* my friend.

And now we have right wing tankies like Tucker Carlson convincing Republican voters that Putin is just a normal politician so why should we even care about Russia and Ukraine???

The connections between the far left and far right are bewildering.

[Sophie Scholl]

And now we have right wing tankies like Tucker Carlson convincing Republican voters that Putin is just a normal politician so why should we even care about Russia and Ukraine???

The connections between the far left and far right are bewildering.

The Red-Brown Nazbol concept has been growing big time. Especially now that "leftist" grifters like Glenn Greenwald, Jimmy Dore, and the like are realizing there is *so* much money to be made on the Right. They're crossing over and bringing a lot of their faithful with them.

[HVC]

Jimmy Dore has gone conservative?

[Sophie Scholl]

Jimmy Dore has gone conservative?

Definitely some wrap around. He's almost just an agent of chaos trying to get everyone on the Left to go for each other's throats. The Greenwald pull is definitely bringing him toward the Right though.

[Jacob]

And now we have right wing tankies like Tucker Carlson convincing Republican voters that Putin is just a normal politician so why should we even care about Russia and Ukraine???

The connections between the far left and far right are bewildering.

So what's the deal with Tucker Carlson?

Is he just in the pocket of Russia? Is it that there's a Democrat in power, so foreign enemies are good because they're against Democrats? Is it just "fuck whatever makes sense because I want the clicks"? Or does he have some sort of actual political philosophy, and what is it?

[DGuller]

If I had to bet on Tucker Carlson being an active asset of Russian intelligence, on the condition that the true answer is known and will be revealed at some point, then I would be pretty comfortable betting on it at even odds, even at the risk of grumbler thinking that I'm a fool.  The coordination of propaganda is just too strong to readily write off his useful idiocy as just a hobby.