Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Gups]

Rewards? They are all dead

Three European countries recently recognized the Palestinian state.

What's that got to do with whether the Hamas leadership is alive or not?

[Gups]

I mean do you really think anyone in Palestine is saying "Yay, France recognized our statehood. Makes it all worthwhile. Hell, I hope they do it again."

[Razgovory]

Hamas hides among civilians.  We both know this, and they gain benefit from doing so.  There is no reason for them not to do this.

[Razgovory]

I mean do you really think anyone in Palestine is saying "Yay, France recognized our statehood. Makes it all worthwhile. Hell, I hope they do it again."

Yes.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/hamas-official-recognising-palestine-victory-112830076.html

A senior Hamas official has welcomed Sir Keir Starmer's promise to recognise Palestine, saying that "victory and liberation are closer than we expected".

Basem Naim, a former minister in the terror group's government of Gaza, said: "International support for Palestinian self-determination shows we are moving in the right direction."

His announcement comes after Sir Keir was accused by Israel of rewarding Hamas by promising to recognise a Palestinian state in the absence of a peace process.


On Wednesday, the Prime Minister also faced criticism from the families of hostages held by Hamas for failing to make their release a precondition to recognising Palestine.

One British hostage freed earlier this year after 471 days in captivity said "shame on you", in comments directed at Sir Keir, for "rewarding terror".

"This move does not advance peace – it risks rewarding terror. It sends a dangerous message: that violence earns legitimacy," Emily Damari said.

"By legitimising a state entity while Hamas still controls Gaza and continues its campaign of terror, you are not promoting a solution; you are prolonging the conflict. Recognition under these conditions emboldens extremists and undermines any hope for genuine peace. Shame on you."

Downing Street is under growing pressure to explain its approach, with some warning that it incentivises Hamas to avoid a ceasefire by keeping hostages in order to secure recognition.


On Tuesday, the Government said it would join France in declaring recognition at the UN General Assembly in September.

Unlike Emmanuel Macron, Sir Keir said the UK would act unless Israel agreed to a ceasefire in Gaza, allowed the UN to restart aid supplies, committed to annexation in the West Bank, and to a long-term peace based on a two-state solution.

The announcement was immediately condemned by Israel.

Hamas yet to comment officially
Dr Basem Naim, who served as minister for health in Gaza between 2007 and 2012, welcomed the move.

"A time will come when those who played a role in this glorious epic will take pride – in the history of our nation and our cause," he wrote, referring to the current Gaza war, which has seen approximately 60,000 deaths – although the figures are disputed.


Hamas has not yet commented officially. Dr Naim now lives in Turkey but remains close to the group. His words risk fuelling claims that the UK government has emboldened Hamas by its promised declaration.


His comments come as the main group representing families of former and present Hamas hostages in Gaza criticised Sir Keir's move.

Bring Them Home Now said: "Recognising a Palestinian state while 50 hostages remain trapped in Hamas tunnels amounts to rewarding terrorism. Such recognition is not a step toward peace, but rather a clear violation of international law and a dangerous moral and political failure that legitimises horrific war crimes.

"The abduction of men, women, and children, who are being held against their will in tunnels while subjected to starvation and physical and psychological abuse, cannot and should not serve as the foundation for establishing a state."


it added: "Recognition of a Palestinian state before the hostages are returned will be remembered throughout history as validating terrorism as a legitimate pathway to political goals."

Adam Wagner KC, a barrister who has represented families of hostages taken by Hamas, said Sir Keir's plan "risks delaying" the release of hostages.

"This is because the UK has said that it will recognise a Palestinian state unless Israel agrees a ceasefire," he said. "But the risk is that Hamas will continue to refuse to a ceasefire because if it agrees to one this would make UK recognition less likely."

The Downing Street statement on Tuesday said Sir Keir had "reiterated that there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas and that our demands on Hamas remain, that they must release all the hostages, sign up to a ceasefire, accept that they will play no role in the government of Gaza, and disarm".

However, these demands were not explicitly linked to the declaration of Palestinian statehood, meaning they do not need to happen for recognition to take place.


Heidi Alexander, the Transport Secretary, was repeatedly pressed on the point on Sky News on Wednesday morning, but would not say the release of the hostages by Hamas was a necessary step that had to be taken before recognition of Palestine.

She said: "We have always said right from day one that the hostages needed to be released.

"We're absolutely clear that Hamas is a vile terrorist organisation, it has committed heinous crimes and the wounds of October 7 will live forever in Israel and in the consciousness of the Israeli people.


"This isn't about Hamas. This is actually about delivering for the Palestinian people and making sure that we can get aid in."


The UK-based Campaign Against Antisemitism described Sir Keir's declaration as "morally indefensible".

"This announcement sends the worst possible message: that mass murder, rape, and hostage-taking are legitimate paths to diplomatic gain," the group said.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel entirely
Eager to portray itself as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people, Hamas has a history of making statements intended to suggest that international condemnation of Israel amounts to support for its actions.

However, proponents of a two-state solution, such as Britain, do not envisage a role for Hamas. The terror group wants to destroy Israel entirely.


International hopes for a sustainable peace are mainly invested in the Palestinian Authority, based in Ramallah in the West Bank, which has formally accepted Israel's right to exist for decades and is an enemy of Hamas.

In a significant move, the Arab League of 22 nations has this week put its weight behind a statement calling for Hamas to be disbanded and condemning its atrocity on Oct 7 2023, the first time many countries in the group have explicitly done so.

"In the context of ending the war in Gaza, Hamas must end its rule in Gaza and hand over its weapons to the Palestinian Authority, with international engagement and support, in line with the objective of a sovereign and independent Palestinian State," reads the declaration.

[Zoupa]

Raz, I urge you to read the articles you post. They contradict your point.

[Admiral Yi]

I mean do you really think anyone in Palestine is saying "Yay, France recognized our statehood. Makes it all worthwhile. Hell, I hope they do it again."

Yeah, probably at least one or two. 

Hamas spent a decade planning a terrorist attack that would maximize shock value.  An attack that would invariably cause a massive, violent response.  So that leaves us with two possibilities: Hamas leadership is stupid, or the Palestinian casualties they knew would result were part of the plan.

European recognition is a reward for civilian suffering.  I personally would not consider it a net reward, but I think it's safe to say my cost/benefit calculus is different than Hamas'.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Azerbaijan achieved a decisive victory in Nagorno-Karabach. Ethnically cleansed it and immediately set about destroying anything Armenian (note that the Armenians weren't much nicer in the 90s though. another presence of the Russians). No one speaks about this, no one gives a shit (other than the Armenians) and everyone continues to deal with Azerbaijan because they have gas.

How could you possibly know what is happening if no one speaks about it or gives a shit?

I suspect that you are engaging in emo hyperbole here. That's never been convincing, except to other emos.

not interested in the game you're playing. I'll consider the snarkyness a confirmation of what I was pointing at, and that you're aware of it.

[Tamas]

Rewards? They are all dead

Three European countries recently recognized the Palestinian state.

What's that got to do with whether the Hamas leadership is alive or not?

Well somebody in Qatar recently refused the latest ceasefire offer so some of the leadership must be alive and willing to fight on despite the famine

[crazy canuck]

Fight on? How is someone in exile, eating all they want, fight on?

The notion of a cease-fire at this point is ridiculous. There is no fire coming from Gaza. There is just Israeli atrocities.

[Grey Fox]

That's where Hamas leadership is located. For some reason Hamas in Gaza still listens to them.

[crazy canuck]

That's where Hamas leadership is located. For some reason Hamas in Gaza still listens to them.

If there is still a Hamas in Gaza, there are very few. Not only is the Israeli strategy a war crime. It is strategically stupid. Why would they ever bow to what the Hamas leadership in exile wants. The more Israel commits war crimes, the more the Hamas leadership wins.  Only a fool would not recognize that truth.

[Razgovory]

Fight on? How is someone in exile, eating all they want, fight on?

The notion of a cease-fire at this point is ridiculous. There is no fire coming from Gaza. There is just Israeli atrocities.

  Seriously?

https://www.gov.il/en/pages/swords-of-iron-idf-casualties#July%202025

Seems like someone is shooting back.

[celedhring]

I find it disheartening that we see an objective evil unfolding in our eyes - children starving - which is also entirely avoidable, and still people tie themselves into knots so we are collectively absolved from it and even justify it ("Hamas could stop it if they wanted!" "It has happened before and we did it!"). What happened to moral clarity? We can't be so cynical. There's no justification for this, no advantage to be gained, no good for Israel will come from it.

(I know I'll regret posting in this thread, like I always do whenever I wade into Middle East threads...)

[Razgovory]

Moral clarity died when I saw people celebrating Oct 7th.

[Grey Fox]

That's where Hamas leadership is located. For some reason Hamas in Gaza still listens to them.

If there is still a Hamas in Gaza, there are very few. Not only is the Israeli strategy a war crime. It is strategically stupid. Why would they ever bow to what the Hamas leadership in exile wants. The more Israel commits war crimes, the more the Hamas leadership wins.  Only a fool would not recognize that truth.

Well, yeah. It's what religious right wing people do.