Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Neil]

Since this should have been a police operation and not a military one, 0:1. And the 1 is not "military aged men", it's "Oct 7th perpetrators".

How would a police operation have worked in a territory where Israel didn't have any control of the territory, and where the government is at war with them?  I can see the argument that Israel could have responded with a wave of more precise killings rather than a full-blown invasion, but this doesn't seem like a job for the police.

[Zoupa]

You're right. Police operation is the wrong word. Military actions were always going to be needed.

[crazy canuck]

Tell you what CC, I'll make a deal with you.  Let's put your money where your mouth is.  I'll agree to on the genocide in Gaza/need to exterminate the Jews/whatever thing you are on about, if you give me 50 bucks (American), for every Israeli killed in Gaza.  Since no fire is coming from child-people of Gaza and Hamas is gone and there is no need for a cease fire this is a win/win for you.  You shouldn't have to pay anything.

We are done.  I have never said that, nor will I ever say that. 

Goodbye Raz

[Razgovory]

I'll take that as a concession that Hamas is in fact still there and that your previous statements about a ceasefire are erroneous.  It's amazing how when money is the table people making weaking arguments clam up.  I use that on Trumpers all the time, never fails.

[Razgovory]

You're right. Police operation is the wrong word. Military actions were always going to be needed.

Okay, so what is a good ratio for women and children to military aged men.

[Zoupa]

What a weird metric. Shouldn't you ask what the ratio should be between combatants and civilians?

[Iormlund]

What a weird metric. Shouldn't you ask what the ratio should be between combatants and civilians?

Sure. But how are you going to ascertain whether someone was a militant or not? They don't use uniforms or any formal identifier.

[Tamas]

Not that it matters or justifies anything at this stage, but it was glaring how Gaza authorities never reported militant deaths. Go by their reports and nobody actually fighting Israel died in this conflict, or nobody has ever fought Israel in this conflict.

[grumbler]

Okay, please explain oh teacher.  Is it okay to fight among civilians with nothing to distinguish yourself from the civilians?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7gasuq-438
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-israel-at-war/january-24-pr/exposed-video-footage-of-hamas-operational-methods/ 

Of course it is not okay to "fight among civilians with nothing to distinguish yourself from the civilians." I am not sure why you would even question that.

But the LOAC does not allow the murder of civilians because Israel is frustrated that Hamas (a terrorist organization) doesn't follow the rules.

Israel's position is "surrender or we kill the hostages." I don't understand how you are okay with that, even if you claim the fig leaf that Hamas is not a terrorist organization but rather a government.  Infants are dying from Israeli-imposed starvations as I type this and, unlike you, I find that absolutely reprehensible.

[grumbler]

Fact is Grumbler is both a teacher and a former member of the military.  There is some chance you would learn something from what he is saying.

The Grumbler of old would also teach us about appeal to authority. 

He would also explain to you what that term means.  He might even do that now.

Nah.  Lead a horse, and all that. 

[Razgovory]

Okay, please explain oh teacher.  Is it okay to fight among civilians with nothing to distinguish yourself from the civilians?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7gasuq-438
https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-israel-at-war/january-24-pr/exposed-video-footage-of-hamas-operational-methods/ 

Of course it is not okay to "fight among civilians with nothing to distinguish yourself from the civilians." I am not sure why you would even question that.

But the LOAC does not allow the murder of civilians because Israel is frustrated that Hamas (a terrorist organization) doesn't follow the rules.

Israel's position is "surrender or we kill the hostages." I don't understand how you are okay with that, even if you claim the fig leaf that Hamas is not a terrorist organization but rather a government.  Infants are dying from Israeli-imposed starvations as I type this and, unlike you, I find that absolutely reprehensible.

No, Israel's position is 'surrender or we keep fighting you."

I'm tired of playing these stupid games.  I'm tired of the bad guys winning.  Why should we let them win by committing war crimes?  Hamas delibratly works to get civilians killed, and rather than outrage, it turns people to their side.  You want to give them what they want, the Israelis out of Gaza.  Hamas manipulation is working.

Origin of Hamas's human shield strategy Hamas's human shield strategy dates back to 2006, soon after Hamas took control of the Palestinian Legislative Council. After a rocket was fired at Israel from the residential home of Popular Resistance Committee member Mohammed Baroud, local Hamas leader Nizar Rayan called on residents to crowd the rooftop of the building with the expectation that Israel would not strike the location of the rocket fire, given the presence of many civilians. The strategy worked and the IDF called off the strike, despite an advance warning it gave to Baroud of an impending airstrike. Al Jazeera reported the incident, openly admitting to Hamas's human shield strategy in the title of its article: "Palestinians form human shield: Hundreds of Palestinians form a human shield against Israeli airstrikes in the Gaza strip". The article noted that "Israel routinely orders residents out of their homes ahead of airstrikes on suspected weapons-storage facilities, saying it wants to avoid casualties." The article quotes Nizar Rayan, a local Hamas leader who joined the protest:

"We came here to protect this fighter, to protect his house and to prove that we are capable of defeating this Zionist policy."

In this manner, asymmetric combatants aim to exploit the Law of Armed Conflict to prevent attacks from conventional opponents. This human shield action was lauded by Ismail Haniyeh, who at the time was the Palestinian Prime Minister and would later go on to lead Hamas. He said:

    We are so proud of this national stand. It's the first step toward protecting our homes, the homes of our children... This strategy was decided by our people. [It] was decided by our leaders, who were here from all the factions... and so long as this strategy is in the interest of our people we support this strategy.

The human shield strategy evolved, eventually encompassing all aspects of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza. Palestinian humanitarian activist Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, who grew up in Gaza over this time period, explained how this military strategy expanded, and that local dissent was brutally suppressed:

 Partly due to the urban nature of Gaza, and partly by embedding its activities and assets among the civilian population, Hamas's infrastructure grew increasingly intertwined with civilian infrastructure and populations. This despite numerous occasions in which people in Gaza would object to rocket launches firing near their homes, tunnels being dug underneath their properties, or hidden stockpiles being placed close to their businesses and houses. Hamas mostly used the stick approach to silence opposition to its militant encroachment upon civilian areas and neighborhoods.

 Hamas leaders admit to using human shields Hamas leaders have encouraged and lauded the human shield strategy over the 17 years of Hamas rule in Gaza leading up to 7 October. There are many documented examples. In 2008, soon after Hamas took control of Gaza, Hamas official Fathi Hammad delivered a speech on Al-Aqsa TV:

[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

[/b]

   During the 2014 Gaza war, Hamas spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri, speaking on Al-Aqsa TV, specifically encouraged the use of human shields. After being asked to comment on how civilians went up to the rooftops of buildings that the IDF had warned it would strike, Zuhri said:

   

This attests to the character of our noble, Jihad-fighting people, who defend their rights and their homes with their bare chests and their blood. The policy of people confronting the Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation. Also, this policy reflects the character of our brave, courageous people. We in Hamas call upon our people to adopt this policy, in order to protect the Palestinian homes.

  Now deceased Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar admitted to hiding military bases in civilian areas in a statement he made on Al Jazeera Live in June 2021:

 

Regarding the [Hamas] military and security bases that are located among civilian residents [in the Gaza Strip], this was a serious problem in the previous stages, and we and the resistance factions made efforts to carry out an operation of gradual movement and transfer of a large number of these bases from among the civilian residents, and we succeeded in carrying out a large portion of it. But there is still a portion that needs to be transferred, and Allah willing this operation will continue.

Another former Hamas leader, Ismail Haniyeh, confirmed the group's readiness to sacrifice the lives of civilians to advance Hamas's war aims in comments made on Lebanon's Mayadeen TV on 26 October 2023:

 

I have said this before, and I say it time again. The blood of the women, children, and elderly... I am not saying that this blood is calling for your [help]. We are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit, so it awakens within us resolve, so it awakens within us the spirit of challenge, and [pushes us] to move forward.

  The open willingness to sacrifice civilian lives in Gaza has been repeated by other Hamas leaders during the current war. According to a June 2024 report in The Wall Street Journal, Sinwar cited civilian casualties as "necessary sacrifices". The day after 7 October, senior Hamas official Ali Baraka told Russia Today TV:

"The Israelis are known to love life. We, on the other hand, sacrifice ourselves. We consider our dead to be martyrs. The thing any Palestinian desires the most is to be martyred for the sake of Allah, defending his land."

[/b]

 In an interview with Russia Today TV, another senior Hamas official, Mousa Abu Marzouk, was asked: "Many people are asking: Since you have built 500 kilometers of tunnels, why haven't you built bomb shelters, where civilians can hide during bombardment?" 26 Marzouk replied:

"We have built the tunnels because we have no other way of protecting ourselves from being targeted and killed. These tunnels are meant to protect us from the airplanes. We are fighting from inside the tunnels."

Marzouk effectively admitted that Hamas had no intention of protecting Gazan civilians, who were thus human shields for Hamas's fighters. As the war continues in Gaza, Palestinian Authority officials have been critical of Hamas's actions in Gaza, calling out its use of human shields. A statement issued by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah Party on 11 January 2025, said that Hamas's decision to launch the 7 October attack on Israel led to "catastrophic" conditions in Gaza and accused Hamas of using Gazan civilians "as human shields instead of protecting them and their homes". The statement added that, "Hamas is now attempting to stir security chaos in the West Bank, thereby continuing its policy that brought disaster upon the Palestinian people." 27 Hamas leadership continued to laud its human shield strategy even as the ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas was announced in January 2025. Senior Hamas leader and key negotiator Khalil Al-Hayya glorified how civilians in Gaza "served as an 'Impenetrable Shield' for the Resistance". He vowed to continue attacking Israel and considered the Hamas attack on 7 October and the overall war as a victory for Hamas.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/HJS-Hamass-Human-Shield-Strategy-in-Gaza-Report-WEB.pdf

Call their bluff.  I say give them what they claim to want.  They claim to love death and desire martyrdom, so let them enjoy it.

[grumbler]

How does a two-year-old girl on the verge of death from Israeli-induced starvation surrender?

[The Minsky Moment]

the fig leaf that Hamas is not a terrorist organization but rather a government

This seems to be a core area of disagreement.  Raz seems to equate Hamas with the "state" of Gaza (always a fiction) and the people of the Gaza taken as a whole, at least as their sole legitimate representative.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'm tired of playing these stupid games.  I'm tired of the bad guys winning.  Why should we let them win by committing war crimes?  Hamas delibratly works to get civilians killed, and rather than outrage, it turns people to their side. 

Yes.
It is incredibly frustrating dealing with terrorist organizations.  And Hamas is one of the worst there has ever been. Terrorists only care about inflicting the worst damage on their enemies and care nothing of the people for whom they purportedly right. Fighting terrorism always forces the opponent to choose between maximum retaliatory effect and maintaining their own sense of decency and humanity. But the party fighting terrorism still maintains moral agency and responsibility, regardless of the terrorist outrage and provocation.  This is a lesson the US had to learn the hard way in the GWOT, and that Israel is refusing to learn now.

[Tamas]

the fig leaf that Hamas is not a terrorist organization but rather a government

This seems to be a core area of disagreement.  Raz seems to equate Hamas with the "state" of Gaza (always a fiction) and the people of the Gaza taken as a whole, at least as their sole legitimate representative.

Who is (or rather, was) in de facto control of Gaza if not Hamas?