Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Some beautiful anti-semitism at work.

https://bsky.app/profile/theandreyx.bsky.social/post/3lu3snpgj322e

[Valmy]

What part of the mixture of Middle Eastern Jews and Eastern European Jews make them "Western"?  By Western do you mean, "perceived as white"?  Because I see a lot of the opposition to Israel framed as "fighting white supremacy".  The Saudis are American allies and they seem to get away with much more.  The Double standard is that Israel gets called out on it and other countries do not.

I think the Saudis are also horrible and I want us to stop using their oil and I want their regime to collapse. And people were calling them out for their genocide in Yemen. Saudi and China face few consequences for their actions, true, but Israel also faces few consequences for their actions. Seems to me the standard is the standard. Russia cannot seem to get away with it, but probably because they had the indecency to invade a European country. When they were just committing atrocities in Chechnya it was different. However, it is a good thing Russia is getting sanctioned. I don't need consistency to applaud a good thing.

But it is interesting to me you consider what the Saudis are doing is equivalent to what Israel is doing. Yet nobody on this board is falling over themselves justifying and defending the Saudis. So who has a double standard? You? Or the rest of us? Just asking questions here.

Whiteness is a fake thing, you get that right? The same way that Italians and Irish can sometimes be white and other times aren't. It is all arbitrary bullshit so pointing out how irrational it is doesn't mean anything. So yes they are supported in the Middle East by racist who see them bringing order to the barbaric Arabs, who are off course all Muslim terrorists to be feared. The fact that plenty of Jewish Israelis are, in fact, Arabs doesn't matter. It doesn't make a super amount of sense, but racism rarely does.

[Razgovory]

What part of the mixture of Middle Eastern Jews and Eastern European Jews make them "Western"?  By Western do you mean, "perceived as white"?  Because I see a lot of the opposition to Israel framed as "fighting white supremacy".  The Saudis are American allies and they seem to get away with much more.  The Double standard is that Israel gets called out on it and other countries do not.

I think the Saudis are also horrible and I want us to stop using their oil and I want their regime to collapse. And people were calling them out for their genocide in Yemen. Saudi and China face few consequences for their actions, true, but Israel also faces few consequences for their actions. Seems to me the standard is the standard. Russia cannot seem to get away with it, but probably because they had the indecency to invade a European country. When they were just committing atrocities in Chechnya it was different. However, it is a good thing Russia is getting sanctioned. I don't need consistency to applaud a good thing.

But it is interesting to me you consider what the Saudis are doing is equivalent to what Israel is doing. Yet nobody on this board is falling over themselves justifying and defending the Saudis. So who has a double standard? You? Or the rest of us? Just asking questions here.

Whiteness is a fake thing, you get that right? The same way that Italians and Irish can sometimes be white and other times aren't. It is all arbitrary bullshit so pointing out how irrational it is doesn't mean anything. So yes they are supported in the Middle East by racist who see them bringing order to the barbaric Arabs, who are off course all Muslim terrorists to be feared. The fact that plenty of Jewish Israelis are, in fact, Arabs doesn't matter. It doesn't make a super amount of sense, but racism rarely does.

Actually I consider what the Saudis do as much worse, they've killed many more people.  But there are no protesters marching every month against Saudi Arabia.  CC doesn't complain constantly that HIS government is supporting genocide, nor does Josq.  People aren't throwing paint on stuff in Britain because of arms being sent to Saudi Arabia.  I've seen very little opposition to what Saudi Arabia does, and what little there is always couched as American imperialism.  Because few people are capable of imaging that Arabs have any sort of agency.

That "Whiteness is fake" is irrelevant.  I think it is the most important factor driving the left on the issue of Palestine.  The problem, is that the Israelis don't belong.  They are the wrong color.  That's why we have the double standard.  That's why the Saudis or Syrians can kill tens of thousands of children and are met with shrugs.  Those people belong in the region, so they are not the problem.  The issue is not that Israelis kill people or bomb civilians (when missiles fall on Israeli civilians it is praiseworthy), it is that they simply don't belong in the area and there will never be peace so long as this foreign disease is there.

[viper37]

CC doesn't complain constantly that HIS government is supporting genocide, nor does Josq.

Well, we do export ACVs to Saudi Arabia, that is true.

Technically, they shouldn't be used for active warfare, but they can be modified by them for that purpose.

In value, it is much more than what we export to Israel.  But it's only 652 vehicles.

With Israel, we exported weapons & ammo, and issued private license exports for various religious "charities" so they could do the same, and send funds to the IDF so Israel could keep on happily murdering and ethnically cleansing civilians.

But it's ok, they're only Palestinians, their lives are worth much, much less than any Jewish-Israeli.

[Neil]

Arms sales to the Saudis were actually kind of controversial in Canada.  There's a deal where we've been selling them some armoured cars.  It was a big deal at first, because it was initially negotiated by a Conservative government.  Of course, the Liberals continued the deal and their partisans mostly dropped their concerns, but there are still a group of activists who still advocate against it using the language of human rights.

[Razgovory]

Arms sales to the Saudis were actually kind of controversial in Canada.  There's a deal where we've been selling them some armoured cars.  It was a big deal at first, because it was initially negotiated by a Conservative government.  Of course, the Liberals continued the deal and their partisans mostly dropped their concerns, but there are still a group of activists who still advocate against it using the language of human rights.

Yeah, I read about that.  There really should be massive demonstrations and sabotage of factories making arms and such.  You know, cause of the genocide.

[crazy canuck]

What part of the mixture of Middle Eastern Jews and Eastern European Jews make them "Western"?  By Western do you mean, "perceived as white"?  Because I see a lot of the opposition to Israel framed as "fighting white supremacy".  The Saudis are American allies and they seem to get away with much more.  The Double standard is that Israel gets called out on it and other countries do not.

I think the Saudis are also horrible and I want us to stop using their oil and I want their regime to collapse. And people were calling them out for their genocide in Yemen. Saudi and China face few consequences for their actions, true, but Israel also faces few consequences for their actions. Seems to me the standard is the standard. Russia cannot seem to get away with it, but probably because they had the indecency to invade a European country. When they were just committing atrocities in Chechnya it was different. However, it is a good thing Russia is getting sanctioned. I don't need consistency to applaud a good thing.

But it is interesting to me you consider what the Saudis are doing is equivalent to what Israel is doing. Yet nobody on this board is falling over themselves justifying and defending the Saudis. So who has a double standard? You? Or the rest of us? Just asking questions here.

Whiteness is a fake thing, you get that right? The same way that Italians and Irish can sometimes be white and other times aren't. It is all arbitrary bullshit so pointing out how irrational it is doesn't mean anything. So yes they are supported in the Middle East by racist who see them bringing order to the barbaric Arabs, who are off course all Muslim terrorists to be feared. The fact that plenty of Jewish Israelis are, in fact, Arabs doesn't matter. It doesn't make a super amount of sense, but racism rarely does.

Actually I consider what the Saudis do as much worse, they've killed many more people.  But there are no protesters marching every month against Saudi Arabia.  CC doesn't complain constantly that HIS government is supporting genocide, nor does Josq.  People aren't throwing paint on stuff in Britain because of arms being sent to Saudi Arabia.  I've seen very little opposition to what Saudi Arabia does, and what little there is always couched as American imperialism.  Because few people are capable of imaging that Arabs have any sort of agency.

That "Whiteness is fake" is irrelevant.  I think it is the most important factor driving the left on the issue of Palestine.  The problem, is that the Israelis don't belong.  They are the wrong color.  That's why we have the double standard.  That's why the Saudis or Syrians can kill tens of thousands of children and are met with shrugs.  Those people belong in the region, so they are not the problem.  The issue is not that Israelis kill people or bomb civilians (when missiles fall on Israeli civilians it is praiseworthy), it is that they simply don't belong in the area and there will never be peace so long as this foreign disease is there.

I am not sure I complain about anything constantly.

[grumbler]

I've never understood the argument that, because people don't protest against, say Syrian attacks on civilians, that they are evil when they protest against, say, Israeli attacks on civilians. That's pure bullshit whataboutism, designed to distract from the real issue. The fact that one set of actions is indefensible doesn't at all relate to the fact that another set of actions is indefensible.

People demonstrate when they think that their demonstrations might make a difference. You don't see mass demonstrations against cancer, even though it kills more civilians than Israel, Syria, and Saudi Arabia combined.

[garbon]

I've never understood the argument that, because people don't protest against, say Syrian attacks on civilians, that they are evil when they protest against, say, Israeli attacks on civilians. That's pure bullshit whataboutism, designed to distract from the real issue. The fact that one set of actions is indefensible doesn't at all relate to the fact that another set of actions is indefensible.

People demonstrate when they think that their demonstrations might make a difference. You don't see mass demonstrations against cancer, even though it kills more civilians than Israel, Syria, and Saudi Arabia combined.

I wouldn't undersestimate the factor of people protesting against things that are en vogue to protest about. I think western governments could certaing by their own civilians to take firmer stances on China (Uighurs), Saudi Arabia, even say starvation and homelessness in their own countries. But those aren't causes that draw as much attention as something emotive like Israel-Palestine. Those other items also don't draw as many clicks as say articles and photographs of Gazan anguish.

[Sophie Scholl]

A lot of this...
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[DGuller]

I've never understood the argument that, because people don't protest against, say Syrian attacks on civilians, that they are evil when they protest against, say, Israeli attacks on civilians. That's pure bullshit whataboutism, designed to distract from the real issue. The fact that one set of actions is indefensible doesn't at all relate to the fact that another set of actions is indefensible.

People demonstrate when they think that their demonstrations might make a difference. You don't see mass demonstrations against cancer, even though it kills more civilians than Israel, Syria, and Saudi Arabia combined.

The issue with selective protesting is the same as with selective law enforcement.  It raises questions as to whether the law is being enforced out of principle, or because it is a convenient tool to achieve an unrelated end.  It's not always whataboutism to dig into why things are done selectively.

[HVC]

I've never understood the argument that, because people don't protest against, say Syrian attacks on civilians, that they are evil when they protest against, say, Israeli attacks on civilians. That's pure bullshit whataboutism, designed to distract from the real issue. The fact that one set of actions is indefensible doesn't at all relate to the fact that another set of actions is indefensible.

People demonstrate when they think that their demonstrations might make a difference. You don't see mass demonstrations against cancer, even though it kills more civilians than Israel, Syria, and Saudi Arabia combined.

I wouldn't undersestimate the factor of people protesting against things that are en vogue to protest about. I think western governments could certaing by their own civilians to take firmer stances on China (Uighurs), Saudi Arabia, even say starvation and homelessness in their own countries. But those aren't causes that draw as much attention as something emotive like Israel-Palestine. Those other items also don't draw as many clicks as say articles and photographs of Gazan anguish.

That's true, but I also think it's tied to how many in a Society defend an action. No one, or at least not in appreachable numbers, defends China or Saudi Arabia's actions, but there a significant number of people who defend Israel's.

If enough people go "oh that's fine" or even "that's a good thing" then theres an impetus to protest that view. You don't protest against views share your outlook.

[Admiral Yi]

That's true, but I also think it's tied to how many in a Society defend an action. No one, or at least not in appreachable numbers, defends China or Saudi Arabia's actions, but there a significant number of people who defend Israel's.

If enough people go "oh that's fine" or even "that's a good thing" then theres an impetus to protest that view. You don't protest against views share your outlook.

Our very own Jake attended a protest about Ukraine.  That somewhat invalidates your point.

[HVC]

That's true, but I also think it's tied to how many in a Society defend an action. No one, or at least not in appreachable numbers, defends China or Saudi Arabia's actions, but there a significant number of people who defend Israel's.

If enough people go "oh that's fine" or even "that's a good thing" then theres an impetus to protest that view. You don't protest against views share your outlook.

Our very own Jake attended a protest about Ukraine.  That somewhat invalidates your point.

If you want to use languish as an example I have one too we've had posts about the Chinese horrendous mistreatment of the uyghurs. Everyone agrees it's a heart breaking horrible situation and we moved on. Not because the actions were acceptable, but because there's no argument. We also have a thread about Israel that won't die because Raz vociferously defends Israel's actions against Palestinian civilians. Continuous dialogue (or protest as the case may be) isn't always tied to the nature of what's being discussed but also because of the side that defends those actions. The stronger the defence the stronger the counter protest.

[Admiral Yi]

If you want to use languish as an example I have one too we've had posts about the Chinese horrendous mistreatment of the uyghurs. Everyone agrees it's a heart breaking horrible situation and we moved on. Not because the actions were acceptable, but because there's no argument. We also have a thread about Israel that won't die because Raz vociferously defends Israel's actions against Palestinian civilians. Continuous dialogue (or protest as the case may be) isn't always tied to the nature of what's being discussed but also because of the side that defends those actions. The stronger the defence the stronger the counter protest.

Yeah, Jake's thing was one and done.  You may have a point.