[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[HVC]

Viper, I feel like you get your information from some very strange alternate view of reality.  I really couldn't even begin to respond to all of that.

Apparently the same reality than I live in because this is one of the few times where Viper and I agree.

So, I guess, Quebec.

Ontario too.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I feel like you get your information from some very strange alternate view of reality.  I really couldn't even begin to respond to all of that.

Apparently the same reality than I live in because this is one of the few times where Viper and I agree.

So, I guess, Quebec.

I think Viper's points are universal outside of BB's bubble.

Or maybe BB just has very selective memory, and has repressed the positions PP has taken in the past.  Like his position on crypto.

It shows just how unpopular Justin is that people are prepared to hold their nose and vote for PP despite all of his flaws.

[Neil]

Viper, I feel like you get your information from some very strange alternate view of reality.  I really couldn't even begin to respond to all of that.

Apparently the same reality than I live in because this is one of the few times where Viper and I agree.

So, I guess, Quebec.

I think Viper's points are universal outside of BB's bubble.

Or maybe BB just has very selective memory, and has repressed the positions PP has taken in the past.  Like his position on crypto.

It shows just how unpopular Justin is that people are prepared to hold their nose and vote for PP despite all of his flaws.

Some of viper's points are valid concerns.  Others are less so.  I rag on Polievre's Bitcoin adventure all the time and hold it against him, but it was years ago and he seems to have dropped it.  And then there's things like 'acting like a child', which is very subjective.  Finally, the implicit idea that the opposition party should support the government's foreign policy is weird. 

[viper37]

Finally, the implicit idea that the opposition party should support the government's foreign policy is weird. 

In times of war, we should be united.  This is war.

Wilfrid Laurier did not adopt a pro-German stance during WW1.  The Conservatives did not adopt a pro-German stance during WW2.

Even the Democrats did not call for peace with Iraq during both Gulf Wars.

Listening to PP, you'd swear he's inviting Trump to trounce on Canada on the tariffs issue.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I feel like you get your information from some very strange alternate view of reality.  I really couldn't even begin to respond to all of that.

Apparently the same reality than I live in because this is one of the few times where Viper and I agree.

So, I guess, Quebec.

I think Viper's points are universal outside of BB's bubble.

Or maybe BB just has very selective memory, and has repressed the positions PP has taken in the past.  Like his position on crypto.

It shows just how unpopular Justin is that people are prepared to hold their nose and vote for PP despite all of his flaws.

Some of viper's points are valid concerns.  Others are less so.  I rag on Polievre's Bitcoin adventure all the time and hold it against him, but it was years ago and he seems to have dropped it.  And then there's things like 'acting like a child', which is very subjective.  Finally, the implicit idea that the opposition party should support the government's foreign policy is weird. 

Oh, I agree that the points can be debated.  That's a very different point than the one BB made.

I agree the descriptions of PP's character are debatable. He has made great efforts over the last year or two to change the perception of him.  But for me, he's always going to be that immature attack dog who never had a real job and entered politics at a very young age.

He's goung to have to demonstrate to the Canadian public that he is more than that. We'll have to see.  His performance during the protest in Ottawa makes me think he's not up to the task.

But again, the alternative is Trudeau.

[Josephus]

Forgive me - but why not?

BB come on, you know I will not vote Çonservative. Will be like me asking you to vote NDP.

I don't support P's brand of populism, and as others have pointed out he has put forward many wacky ideas.  I'm not going to vote for someone and hope he doesn't do what he says.

[crazy canuck]

Forgive me - but why not?

I'm not going to vote for someone and hope he doesn't do what he says.

Yeah, he has said so many wacky things in the last 5 years.  This nicely summarizes the concern.

[Barrister]

Forgive me - but why not?

BB come on, you know I will not vote Çonservative. Will be like me asking you to vote NDP.

I don't support P's brand of populism, and as others have pointed out he has put forward many wacky ideas.  I'm not going to vote for someone and hope he doesn't do what he says.

But I have voted NDP.

Also, personal preference, but I have the criticism of "populism".  Populism is a style, not a set of policy positions.  You can have both left and right populists.  Both within right and left populists you can have a wide range of different policy positions.

I know we're right now in a moment where Trump=bad and Trump=populist, therefore populist=bad - but I don't think that's necessarily true.

[Neil]

Finally, the implicit idea that the opposition party should support the government's foreign policy is weird. 

In times of war, we should be united.  This is war.

Wilfrid Laurier did not adopt a pro-German stance during WW1.  The Conservatives did not adopt a pro-German stance during WW2.

Even the Democrats did not call for peace with Iraq during both Gulf Wars.

Listening to PP, you'd swear he's inviting Trump to trounce on Canada on the tariffs issue.

We're not actually at war, and whether or not we should be or what level of support we should be offering to countries facing Russian aggression are political questions.  If you want to use an example from American history, consider the difference between stated policies for Nixon and McGovern over the Vietnam War.  French history will show you a significant difference between how Reynaud and Laval expressed themselves. 

I think he's looking to use the reason that Trump stated for his threats to drive Canadian policy in the direction that he already wanted it driven, which is to say further restrictions on immigration. 

[Neil]

Oh, I agree that the points can be debated.  That's a very different point than the one BB made.

I agree the descriptions of PP's character are debatable. He has made great efforts over the last year or two to change the perception of him.  But for me, he's always going to be that immature attack dog who never had a real job and entered politics at a very young age.

He's goung to have to demonstrate to the Canadian public that he is more than that. We'll have to see.  His performance during the protest in Ottawa makes me think he's not up to the task.

But again, the alternative is Trudeau.

That's fair, but I think that to characterize anybody who takes issue with viper's points as being in some kind of bubble is not fair at all.  Sometimes, our dislike for a particular person (or our perception of that person) makes it difficult to look at them as the general public does. 

You are right though in that it doesn't take much right now to look better than the other party leaders. 

[Neil]

I know we're right now in a moment where Trump=bad and Trump=populist, therefore populist=bad - but I don't think that's necessarily true.

The problem with populism is that it can lead to jumping on some poorly-considered bandwagons.  Consider Polievre's statements about Bitcoin, an idea that was all the rage with a certain kind of 'finance bro', but which had pretty serious flaws that a moment of consideration would expose.  You can adopt the style of populism while having sound, well-considered policy.  That's what Polievre needs to prove to me before I can be enthusiastic about him. 

[crazy canuck]

Oh, I agree that the points can be debated.  That's a very different point than the one BB made.

I agree the descriptions of PP's character are debatable. He has made great efforts over the last year or two to change the perception of him.  But for me, he's always going to be that immature attack dog who never had a real job and entered politics at a very young age.

He's goung to have to demonstrate to the Canadian public that he is more than that. We'll have to see.  His performance during the protest in Ottawa makes me think he's not up to the task.

But again, the alternative is Trudeau.

That's fair, but I think that to characterize anybody who takes issue with viper's points as being in some kind of bubble is not fair at all.  Sometimes, our dislike for a particular person (or our perception of that person) makes it difficult to look at them as the general public does. 

You are right though in that it doesn't take much right now to look better than the other party leaders. 

This is what BB said "Viper, I feel like you get your information from some very strange alternate view of reality.  I really couldn't even begin to respond to all of that."

As you and I have already agreed, at least some of what Viper said was valid.  For someone to say that Viper must be getting his information "from some very strange alternate view of reality" leads to the conclusion that the person making that statement is in their own bubble.

How else does one deny all the things Viper said that are factually true?

There is a big different between debating whether one should be concerned about the things PP has said in the past, and trying to claim there is no valid criticism at all.

[Barrister]

Recent poll from Mainstreet Research showed Conservatives at 47%, Liberals and NDP tied at 17%, BQ7%, Green 6%, PPC 4%.

That's a 30 point lead in the polls.

Obviously - just one poll.  But damn.

(and what's with people voting Green or PPC at this point?)

[Josephus]

Forgive me - but why not?

BB come on, you know I will not vote Çonservative. Will be like me asking you to vote NDP.

I don't support P's brand of populism, and as others have pointed out he has put forward many wacky ideas.  I'm not going to vote for someone and hope he doesn't do what he says.

But I have voted NDP.

Also, personal preference, but I have the criticism of "populism".  Populism is a style, not a set of policy positions.  You can have both left and right populists.  Both within right and left populists you can have a wide range of different policy positions.

I know we're right now in a moment where Trump=bad and Trump=populist, therefore populist=bad - but I don't think that's necessarily true.

I didn't say populism, I said his brand of populism

[crazy canuck]

Recent poll from Mainstreet Research showed Conservatives at 47%, Liberals and NDP tied at 17%, BQ7%, Green 6%, PPC 4%.

That's a 30 point lead in the polls.

Obviously - just one poll.  But damn.

(and what's with people voting Green or PPC at this point?)

One poll in a whole series of polls over that year that have the same results.

Why green and PPC. Well I suspect for the same reason you supported Reform.  You believed in their policies even though they would never form government.