[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Grey Fox]

It does seems to be a poor idea for us to do. Let's not insert ourselves even more into domestic Indian politics.

[crazy canuck]

It does seems to be a poor idea for us to do. Let's not insert ourselves even more into domestic Indian politics.

If their activities were not being carried out in Canada, I would agree.  But that May 2023 report from the CBC makes it pretty clear they are active in Canada.  The question I have is why our government did not take their activities here more seriously earlier.

The cynic in me thinks that if the government was not forced to have this foreign interference inquiry, this would have continued unchallenged.

[Barrister]

Strange that you could not find any other mention of the group.  Concerns about the groups activities in Canada populated the first page of a search I did of just that name.  If you do the same you will see that amongst other things, there is an in depth CBC report from May 2023 describing a number of concerns, including acts of intimidation here in Canada.  You will also see that it has been banned in India on a number of occasions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/rss-hindutva-india-report-1.6764114

Good grief.

No mention of RSS arising from the RCMP reports this week about Indian government involved in crimes in Canada.

Can I find reference to RSS using google?  Sure I can.  Same as you.  But nothing from this past week.

You should look closer at your "in depth CBC report from May 23" however, because it is anything but.  Instead it is reporting on a report prepared by a third party.  Nothing wrong with that - it certainly is news worthy - but CBC didn't do any reporting other than talking to the authors of the report, and then getting a response from RSS.

But who are the parties that authored this report critical of the pro-Hindu RSS?  None other than the National Council of Canadian Muslims and the World Sikh Organization of Canada.

This is like Protestants and Orthodox groups getting together to say that some pro-Catholic group. I dunno, the Knights of Columbus, should be banned.  And goes right to my critique of Jagmeet Singh - while he can and should be a voice for Sikhs in Canada, he's got to be very careful about not just repeating pro-Sikh points like banning RSS.

So look - if the RCMP or CSIS are implicating this group in crimes being committed in Canada then that should be taken seriously.  The Muslim/Sikh critique of this organization may very well have a lot of merit.  But you have to be skeptical given the authors.

By the way, the bans on the organization in India?  That would be in 1947 by the colonial government, 1948, 1975 and 1992.  So not exactly recently.

I swear - you're so eager to score internet points dunking on me you don't think critically about what you're posting.

[Grey Fox]

You are doing it again.

[Barrister]

You are doing it again.

I know.

[crazy canuck]

Strange that you could not find any other mention of the group.  Concerns about the groups activities in Canada populated the first page of a search I did of just that name.  If you do the same you will see that amongst other things, there is an in depth CBC report from May 2023 describing a number of concerns, including acts of intimidation here in Canada.  You will also see that it has been banned in India on a number of occasions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/rss-hindutva-india-report-1.6764114

Good grief.

No mention of RSS arising from the RCMP reports this week about Indian government involved in crimes in Canada.

Can I find reference to RSS using google?  Sure I can.  Same as you.  But nothing from this past week.

You should look closer at your "in depth CBC report from May 23" however, because it is anything but.  Instead it is reporting on a report prepared by a third party.  Nothing wrong with that - it certainly is news worthy - but CBC didn't do any reporting other than talking to the authors of the report, and then getting a response from RSS.

But who are the parties that authored this report critical of the pro-Hindu RSS?  None other than the National Council of Canadian Muslims and the World Sikh Organization of Canada.

This is like Protestants and Orthodox groups getting together to say that some pro-Catholic group. I dunno, the Knights of Columbus, should be banned.  And goes right to my critique of Jagmeet Singh - while he can and should be a voice for Sikhs in Canada, he's got to be very careful about not just repeating pro-Sikh points like banning RSS.

So look - if the RCMP or CSIS are implicating this group in crimes being committed in Canada then that should be taken seriously.  The Muslim/Sikh critique of this organization may very well have a lot of merit.  But you have to be skeptical given the authors.

By the way, the bans on the organization in India?  That would be in 1947 by the colonial government, 1948, 1975 and 1992.  So not exactly recently.

I swear - you're so eager to score internet points dunking on me you don't think critically about what you're posting.

You said this:

"I think it is active in Canada, but nothing (at least in public) tying it to any violence in Canada.  Most importantly though - it has close ties to India's ruling BJP Party."

I said I was surprised you found nothing because a simple google search turned up a number of hits indicating a great deal of publicly expressed concern that the group is tied to violence in Canada.

Your post was incorrect, and I corrected it.  If that is a problem for you, I am not sure what I can do.   I am not surprised that you might not have heard about all the concerns being expressed in the last couple of years, since you live in Edmonton.  But you should not assert there is nothing in the public sphere linking the group to violence in Canada by way of criticism of what Singh did simply because you are unaware of what has been happening and publicly commented on.

[Barrister]

You said this:

"I think it is active in Canada, but nothing (at least in public) tying it to any violence in Canada.  Most importantly though - it has close ties to India's ruling BJP Party."

I said I was surprised you found nothing because a simple google search turned up a number of hits indicating a great deal of publicly expressed concern that the group is tied to violence in Canada.

I have gone through your article at length.  It says RSS is tied to violence in India, and the authors are concerned it is active in Canada.

Your post was incorrect, and I corrected it.  If that is a problem for you, I am not sure what I can do.   I am not surprised that you might not have heard about all the concerns being expressed in the last couple of years, since you live in Edmonton.  But you should not assert there is nothing in the public sphere linking the group to violence in Canada by way of criticism of what Singh did simply because you are unaware of what has been happening and publicly commented on.

Fuck you.

I spent all afternoon yesterday dealing trying to help this rather nice Sikh fellow and his family get a compensation order as a result of being the victim in a dangerous driving incident.  There's a huge south asian community in Edmonton.  Don't try to act like Edmonton is Mayberry.

[viper37]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-testify-foreign-interference-inquiry-1.7353342

Too long to quote - just go read it.

Cole's Notes:
-CSIS has warned of foreign interference in Canadian elections
-Trudeau attacks the Conservatives, saying he knows of Conservative politicians who are somehow involved with foreign intelligence
-under questioning by Conservative lawyer, Trudeau admits some Liberal politicians are also implicated
-Poilievre has declined to get security clearance so he can view this intelligence

It really feels like both sides are playing politics on a topic way too important to be a political football.

I mean Trudeau I think has a point that Poilievre should get that clearance.  Poilievre's argument has been it would prevent him from being able to comment on any of these issues.  Maybe so, but for someone who could be our Prime Minister in 12 months he should know what's going on.

But Trudeau is clearly trying to make political attacks on this as well when his party is just as implicated, if not more so.  As Poilievre says - release the names - all the names.

PP was briefed by the National security adviser on the subject the day before Trudeau came out publicly about it.
Source: Dimitri Soudas, former advisor to Stephen Harper and personal friend to Pierre Poilièvre, October 16th and October 17th, Mordus de Politiques, RDI between 12:30 and 13:30.

PP didn't make any steps to get his clearance after that to know who's being compromised and that's irresponsible of him.  He has no reason to not get it.

Yes, Trudeau was political about it.  He is the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada and he scored some political points on an important issue.  Just like the Conservatives are doing.  He isn't Saint-Justin.  That does not make PP and the Conservatives right.

Someone in their party is compromised. More than one someone.  Voluntarily or involuntarily.  The leader of His Majesty Loyal Opposition has to know before the election, before he has a chance to become Prime Minister.  He his either loyal to Canada, or loyal to his party's financial contributors.

[Barrister]

Someone in their party is compromised. More than one someone.  Voluntarily or involuntarily.  The leader of His Majesty Loyal Opposition has to know before the election, before he has a chance to become Prime Minister.  He his either loyal to Canada, or loyal to his party's financial contributors.

So there is nothing in the public that would support anyone being "compromised".  Maybe they are - but it hasn't been made public.

I'll direct you to this reporting from today:

Wark pointed to the report the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians (NSICOP) released in June, which suggested some parliamentarians had been "'semi-witting or witting participants" in foreign interference activities.

CSIS officials testifying before the inquiry called into question some of the conclusions in the NSICOP report. One CSIS official, in an interview behind closed doors, specifically questioned the use of the word "witting."

There's definitely foreign intelligence going on directed at MPs of multiple parties.  But that's all we know.

Edit: forgot the link

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-release-names-poilievre-security-clearance-1.7355350

[Grey Fox]

He's not getting it because he will be denied.

[viper37]

since you live in Edmonton

There are large South Asian communities in the Western Provinces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Canadians

In case you haven't heard, there has been a lot of immigration in Canada in the last few years...

I live way outside Admiral Yi's map ( ) and my city has a lot of immigrants.  Mostly Hispanic-speaking workers on farms (temporary workers), but also a lot of people of African origins (now before you ask, it's the accent combined with the skin colour that makes the origin obvious; and their name on Facebook).  There's a Muslim community large enough to have their own Mosque (well, cultural centre) now, too.


Back to the subject at hand, it's one of the reasons why PP does not want his security clearance: he derives his political support from one such community, a different one than the LPC.

[viper37]

'semi-witting or witting participants" in foreign interference activities.

CSIS is unwilling to divulge their sources publicly.

PP is unwilling to compromise one of his electoral base and lose financial support.

All he has to do is get the clearance, get the list of compromised or targeted MPs, Senators, candidates and clean up his party.  He will simply not sign their documents pertaining to their candidacy for the next election and they will go out quietly.  End of story.

[viper37]

He's not getting it because he will be denied.

He already has a high clearance as a former cabinet minister.  He does not have the highest one like a Prime Minister.

The PM could designate him as an exception though, in his role as a Opposition leader, and he could then see the names.  But PP won't want that.

[Barrister]

'semi-witting or witting participants" in foreign interference activities.

CSIS is unwilling to divulge their sources publicly.

As well they shouldn't.

PP is unwilling to compromise one of his electoral base and lose financial support.

All he has to do is get the clearance, get the list of compromised or targeted MPs, Senators, candidates and clean up his party.  He will simply not sign their documents pertaining to their candidacy for the next election and they will go out quietly.  End of story.

So are you suggesting that part of Poilievre's base is either Chinese voters, or Indian(or Sikh) voters?  While the Conservatives have support in both groups, so do the Liberals and I don't see either as possibly being a "electoral base".

Otherwise - spell this out more literally for me please.

[Grey Fox]

He's not getting it because he will be denied.

He already has a high clearance as a former cabinet minister.  He does not have the highest one like a Prime Minister.

The PM could designate him as an exception though, in his role as a Opposition leader, and he could then see the names.  But PP won't want that.

Yes but somethings change since. Most especially, he got married.