Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Tamas]

Lebanese health ministry reports almost 500 dead after recent Israeli air strikes: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3wy8kpy3eo

This is all gonna get a lot worse before it gets better, doesn't it?

Bibi making the world burn to avoid prison aside, I wonder if the Israeli leadership has taken a good look at the world's reaction to 7th October and rightfully concluded they have a closing window of opportunity to deal with their enemies, and want to take it.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Opening a second front while your economy is struggling.... what could possibly go wrong?

[Razgovory]

You are free to quote what I wrote.  You said that Palestine has always existed.  That is not true.  Zionism is the right of Jews to have their own state.  Not exactly a right-wing idea.  Antizionism says no!, Jewish people don't deserve this.  This is typically a far right claim.

I live on stolen land, remember?  I don't have the Blood and Soil thing that a modern European or Arab has.  From whence does my right to live on this land come?

[PJL]

Lebanese health ministry reports almost 500 dead after recent Israeli air strikes: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3wy8kpy3eo

This is all gonna get a lot worse before it gets better, doesn't it?

Bibi making the world burn to avoid prison aside, I wonder if the Israeli leadership has taken a good look at the world's reaction to 7th October and rightfully concluded they have a closing window of opportunity to deal with their enemies, and want to take it.

I was thinking that, sounds like they're trying to pull a Nixon and go to the peace talks from a position of strength.

[Josquius]

You are free to quote what I wrote.  You said that Palestine has always existed.  That is not true. 

You said:

Just like how the Gilead and Airstrip One have always existed.

You're not even trying to make sense here.

"Palestine" has not always existed anymore than Airstrip One always existed. 

Palestine hasn't *literally* always existed. Obviously. Even the universe hasn't. But you were clearly finding fault beyond this nitpicking.
In a human time scale the origins of the name Palestine in the Gaza area date back 3000 years. Which....Yeah. "Always" is a fair colloquialism. Especially when you consider this was pretty uninterrupted over that time, in contrast to Israel.

Syrians aren't Palestinians because one day in the future some of their decedents will claim a new identity based on new political borders.

Syrians aren't Palestinians because they don't live in Palestine.
If in some wacky bizzaro future Palestine were to conquer Syria then it would be accurate to say Syrians are Palestinians- but barring we make this scenario any wackier and add some 1984 style obliteration of identity they could also be Syrians, Aleppans, etc...

Though Palestine was long a part of Syria, it still remained Palestine. Palestine was specifically marked on maps as a region of Syria named Palestine.

Zionism is the right of Jews to have their own state.  Not exactly a right-wing idea.  Antizionism says no!, Jewish people don't deserve this.  This is typically a far right claim.

Zionism a century ago was about the right of Jews to have their own state. It had a lot of left wing links up through the mid-20th century.
Zionism today is about the right of Jews to create a religious state covering the whole of historic Palestine, the Palestinians having zero right to live there. Its a very firmly conservative-at-best ideology.
The bulk of the far right these days tend not to think much about Jews. Its Muslims who they see as enemy number one.

I live on stolen land, remember?  I don't have the Blood and Soil thing that a modern European or Arab has.  From whence does my right to live on this land come?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I never said you live on stolen land.
You have the right to live where you live because you were born there. This is a increasingly uncommon way of approaching citizenship in our globalised world as its very open for abuse (Ireland is the main case that comes to mind), but the basic idea remains intact, only there are usually extra requirements of having parents who are citizens.
Strange though you argue this when it completely destroys your stance on Israel-Palestine?

[Razgovory]

No, Palestine ceased to exist a long time ago.  It was not a territory of the Ottoman empire.  It was in the province of Syria.  It was later subdivided into bunch of little subprovinces.  Simply because something existed in the past, it doesn't exist now.  Prussia does not exist.  It existed in the past, but no more.  There isn't a Prussian identity anymore.  Only a few very old people are left that were once Prussian are left alive.  After they are gone nobody can make any plausible claim to be a Prussians.  Likewise, nobody talked about Palestinians except Europeans who liked history until about the 20th century.  The people there thought of themselves as Syrians cause they lived in Syria.  Now these Syrians have decided they are now Palestinians, but their ancestors 170 years ago didn't.  They couldn't predict that Europeans would declare them Palestinians a century later.  Just as you aren't Birigantiyyi even though the Greater Arab Co-Propsperity sphere will declare your home land Birigantiyya a 179 years from now (spoilers!).

Both Israeli and Palestinian identity are modern creations.

I am surprised that you believe that Palestinians have zero right to live in Israel.  The Palestinians and their supporters are rather ardent on this issue.  

You have a personal definition of Zionism which is somewhat at odds with the world.  

But I do live on stolen land.  My anti-colonialist fellow citizens are always quick to remind us of that.  The campus protests are rooted in this idea.  Israel is on stolen land, and should be given back to the indigenous inhabitants. I understand that, as a European, you have the blood and soil thing going on, so you don't have people questioning your right to live where you do.  What you probably don't realize that a movement about throwing out the refugees, settlers and their descendants is disconcerting to people are the descendants of refugees and settlers.

If I have the right to live where I live because I was born there don't the Israelis born on West Bank have the same right?  And could not any conquest and settlement be justified after the fact be the decedents of the conquerors and settlers who were born on the new territory.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Hateful antisemitic Hamas advocate Rashida Tlaib is on a rampage lately, attacking Michigan's Jewish Attorney General for her religion:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/michigan-attorney-general-calls-rashida-tlaibs-criticism-of-her-antisemitic/

Michigan attorney general calls Rashida Tlaib's criticism of her 'antisemitic'

Dana Nessel, who is Jewish, calls out pro-Palestinian Democrat congresswoman for suggesting she's biased in prosecuting student protesters for 'violence and criminal behavior'

Michigan's Jewish attorney general has accused the state's Palestinian-American congresswoman of antisemitism, in a war of words between two prominent Democrats that could upend an already tense battleground state.

The exchange between Attorney General Dana Nessel and Rep. Rashida Tlaib, formerly friends, stems from Nessel's decision to file charges this month against 11 pro-Palestinian protesters at the University of Michigan. In a September 12 statement, Nessel emphasized the right to free speech but accused the 11 protesters at the university's encampment last spring of "violent and criminal behavior," including obstructing police and trespassing.

In an interview with a local paper the following day, Tlaib likened the campus protests to other demonstrations against racism and for immigrant rights. She told the Detroit Metro Times that Nessel chose to prosecute the 11 because of "possible biases."

"It seems that the attorney general decided if the issue was Palestine, she was going to treat it differently, and that alone speaks volumes about possible biases within the agency she runs,"  she said.

Nessel's office confirmed to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency that she took that remark as a reference to her Jewish identity. In a social media post on Friday, she condemned a political cartoon that suggested Tlaib was affiliated with Hezbollah — and also called out the congresswoman for antisemitism.

The Detroit News cartoon depicted Tlaib looking at a smoking device on her desk, and saying "Odd, my pager exploded," a reference to last week's attacks on the Hezbollah terror group's communications devices in Lebanon. Thousands of pagers and walkie-talkies used by operatives exploded in an attack that Hezbollah blamed on Israel, which has not claimed responsibility.

"Rashida's religion should not be used in a cartoon to imply that she's a terrorist. It's Islamophobic and wrong," Nessel said on X. "Just as Rashida should not use my religion to imply I cannot perform my job fairly as Attorney General. It's antisemitic and wrong."

Tlaib's office declined to comment. In the wake of the furor, the Detroit Metro Times ran an article entitled "Fact-check: Tlaib did not say Nessel charged pro-Palestinian protesters because she's Jewish."

The article, by the same reporter who initially interviewed Tlaib, noted that the congresswoman did not explicitly reference Nessel's being Jewish and said that "Tlaib was referring to anti-Palestinian attitudes" when she alleged there was bias in Nessel's office.

Tlaib's defenders have cast doubt on the idea that she was commenting on Nessel's identity.

Anti-Defamation League CEO Jonathan Greenblatt in a tweet reproached Tlaib for accusing "the attorney general of prosecuting protestors simply because she's Jewish."

Tlaib's defenders said that was a distortion.

"This is just a lie," tweeted Dylan Williams, vice president for governmental affairs at the Center for International Policy, a progressive think tank, quoting Greenblatt's tweet. "Falsely accusing a Congresswoman who is a frequent target of bigotry of doing something she didn't isn't just defamatory — it risks inciting more hatred and even violence against her."

The public spat between the two officials comes as the state's top Democrats are seeking to tamp down debate over Israel and Gaza as a tight presidential and Senate election nears. Democrats are relying on Michigan's large Jewish and Arab populations if they are to win.

On Sunday, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer did not answer directly when CNN anchor Jake Tapper asked her if Tlaib's statement was antisemitic.

"I'm not going to get in the middle of this argument that they're having," she said. "I can just say this. We do want to make sure that students are safe on our campuses, and we recognize that every person has the right to make their statement about how they feel about an issue, a right to speak out, and I'm going to use every lever of mine to ensure that both are true."

The Tlaib cartoon, which also appeared in the National Review Online, has drawn broader condemnation, including from Rep. Elissa Slotkin, the Jewish Democratic nominee for Michigan's Senate seat. She called the cartoon "Islamophobic and downright dangerous" and called for its retraction. A group of Jewish House Democrats from across the country condemned the cartoon in similar terms, calling it a "toxically Islamophobic and anti-Arab affront."

"While none of us always agrees with Representative Tlaib (just as she surely does not always agree with any of us) that is no reason to excuse this," said the statement, issued Sunday.

The exchange is the latest stage in a souring of relations between Nessel and Tlaib, who were once allies. In 2019, Nessel came to the defense of Tlaib when the Trump administration persuaded Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to block her from entering Israel and the West Bank, where Tlaib's grandmother lives.

"As both a Jew and personal friend of Rep. Tlaib, I am outraged that she continues to face vile attacks simply for who she is and for doing her job," Nessel said at the time. "Rashida does not judge a person based on religion, race, national origin, sexual orientation or any other classification."

But as in so many other relationships, the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war last October 7 marked a shift. In November, Nessel took Tlaib to task for defending the phrase "From the river to the sea," which many Jews see as a call for the destruction of Israel, but which supporters of Palestinians assert is a call for equality.

"Rashida Tlaib, I have supported and defended you countless times, even when you have said the indefensible, because I believed you to be a good person whose heart was in the right place," Nessel said then. "But this is so hurtful to so many. Please retract this cruel and hateful remark."

War erupted on October 7 when Hamas led thousands of Palestinian terrorists in a devastating cross-border attack on Israel, killing 1,200 people — mostly civilians — and abducting 251 people who were taken as hostages to Gaza.

Anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian demonstrations spread across college campuses in the US earlier this year, with some Jewish students saying they felt an accompanying antisemitic attitude. There were violent clashes with police at some protest camps.

It is increasingly obvious we need a constitutional amendment barring Muslims from Federal office. It would set the appropriate understanding that Muslims can live here, peacefully, but can never have a say in our government as we are not going to become a Sharia law country. I also suspect it would easily sail to passage in 38 states, the barrier would be getting it through Congress since Democrats have a big Islamic terrorist lobby now.

[Josquius]

 
If we are opening that box then why stop there? Let's just ban all conservatives.

No, Palestine ceased to exist a long time ago

Under whatever metric you're applying here this applies to Israel many times more.

Both Israeli and Palestinian identity are modern creations.

Holy goal post shift.
This is true. And contrary to your points.
But then it's also true of most national identities.
.

I am surprised that you believe that Palestinians have zero right to live in Israel.  The Palestinians and their supporters are rather ardent on this issue. 

How on earth do you get this?
I'd hope any eventual peace deal includes something in this sphere.

You have a personal definition of Zionism which is somewhat at odds with the world   

Not really. This is what zionism means in modern politics and why so many on the left oppose it.

But I do live on stolen land.  My anti-colonialist fellow citizens are always quick to remind us of that.  The campus protests are rooted in this idea.  Israel is on stolen land, and should be given back to the indigenous inhabitants. I understand that, as a European, you have the blood and soil thing going on, so you don't have people questioning your right to live where you do.  What you probably don't realize that a movement about throwing out the refugees, settlers and their descendants is disconcerting to people are the descendants of refugees and settlers.

Oh how little you know.
You seriously think Europe doesn't have any problems like this?
And if you're going to keep insisting you're not far right you really ought to stop going on about blood and soil.

If I have the right to live where I live because I was born there don't the Israelis born on West Bank have the same right?  And could not any conquest and settlement be justified after the fact be the decedents of the conquerors and settlers who were born on the new territory   

It's a complicated issue for sure. Overall though the settler groups cynically try to exploit international convention by intentionally having kids in illegally occupied areas, and considering they've not been there that long then they don't deserve to be there no. Its definitely part of why it's key to sort them ASAP.
Israel overall however absolutely has had long enough as a thing that the idea of just deporting people who've lived their whole lives in Israel is insane.
Yet you guys won't even accept this for the native peoe....

[Razgovory]

Really, who is saying the English must leave England?  Blood and soil is not for me.  It's a European concept, applied to Palestine under a different name.  I posted some stuff on this before.  I'm not surprised you didn't read them.

If Palestine is modern creation how can it have always existed?

The far left has a problem with Zionism because the Soviets told them to.  That is literally the source of the animosity.  The far right, had other problems, which were adopted by the leftists when non-white nationalists became honorary leftists.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yeah Josq, it is 100% you who is promoting the idea the West Bank and Gaza Arabs have some magical right to the entire region based on the blood that runs through their veins.

[Josquius]

Really, who is saying the English must leave England?  Blood and soil is not for me.  It's a European concept, applied to Palestine under a different name.  I posted some stuff on this before.  I'm not surprised you didn't read them.

Yet you keep going on about blood and soil and how the Jews are the native people of Israel which was there before Palestine...

If Palestine is modern creation how can it have always existed?

Because it isn't a modern creation. Its origins stretch back to 1000BC and it has been the dominant name for the whole of that part of the Levant for most of the past 2000 years.
We've been over this.
Jeez you really love to go round in circles.

The far left has a problem with Zionism because the Soviets told them to.  That is literally the source of the animosity. 

That's just incredibly untrue.
During most of the cold war the left was pretty pro-Zionism.
Things changed when Zionism changed from being about an often oppressed group, a massive underdog, trying to create a homeland where they could live in peace and freedom (with socialism!) and to being about an oppressor throwing about its weight to take more more more.

The far right, had other problems, which were adopted by the leftists when non-white nationalists became honorary leftists.

This is just gibberish. Again we've been over this and you're just looping around in circles. It is far from unprecedented for national liberation movements to have left wing leanings; Ireland for instance.

Yeah Josq, it is 100% you who is promoting the idea the West Bank and Gaza Arabs have some magical right to the entire region based on the blood that runs through their veins.

Nope. Its you guys proclaiming Jews have this right based on their blood and ancient history and all sorts of nonsense.
I am saying this is a bollocks basis of argument, and even within the rules you've setup it isn't the slam dunk you think.

I say the Palestinians have the rights to their land pretty simply because its theirs.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I say the Palestinians have the rights to their land pretty simply because its theirs.

The WB/Gaza Arabs lose land for starting wars, simple formula.

[Razgovory]

Yeah, see I was under the impression you read the articles I posted.  It's clear you don't.

Yes, the far-left was heavily influenced by Soviet turn against Israel and it bled into the regular left-wing politics.  Take for instance the idea of "Zionism is racism".  That came from the Soviets, who got the UN to adopt it.  It is still a major slogan among the left.  The far-left turn from Israel and alliance from with the Arabs is no different than the alliance with Nazi Germany.  You know, just like when the Western far left were anti-war 1939-1941.  The Palestinian resistance is not, for the most part, left-wing.  Fatah tried to market itself to the Soviets and the Western Far-left as socialist, but it is socialist in the same way that Adolf Hitler was socialist.

I'm still fuzzy on the idea that racism from an oppressed people is left-wing.

[Josquius]

I say the Palestinians have the rights to their land pretty simply because its theirs.

The WB/Gaza Arabs lose land for starting wars, simple formula.

Bullshit.
Palestinian civilians get their land stolen from them no matter whether theres a conflict going on or not.
Even if we pretended there was a correlation - this is against international law. You can't seize other countries land in war.

Yeah, see I was under the impression you read the articles I posted.  It's clear you don't.

I give a lot of them a skim at best as it's the same old omfg look at this horrible anti semitic lunatic. They represent anyone with something bad to say about Israel.
It's like when a racist uncle posts something about immigrants. Not worth the time.

Yes, the far-left was heavily influenced by Soviet turn against Israel and it bled into the regular left-wing politics.

Very interesting that this coincidentally happened right about the same time that Israel could no longer rationally be seen as an underdog and made a heel turn.

Take for instance the idea of "Zionism is racism".  That came from the Soviets, who got the UN to adopt it.  It is still a major slogan among the left. 

I have no idea where this expression that isn't too common came from. But quite the ad hom there. The Soviets said something so it can't possibly be true.
Lets just ignore the reality of the Israeli right as Jewish supremacists who regard Palestinians as sub human....

The far-left turn from Israel and alliance from with the Arabs is no different than the alliance with Nazi Germany.
 You know, just like when the Western far left were anti-war 1939-1941.

Learn some history.
It was the right who wanted to surrender to the nazis. It was due to the support of the left that Churchill with a minority of the right was able to become pm.

The Palestinian resistance is not, for the most part, left-wing.  Fatah tried to market itself to the Soviets and the Western Far-left as socialist, but it is socialist in the same way that Adolf Hitler was socialist.

There's a debate there but it's clearly one you're not interested in from the idiotic nazi analogy.
Arab socialism is a thing with a long and complex history and quite some differences from socialism you normally see in the west or in the old eastern block.
Most in the west sympathise with the Palestinians on humanitarian grounds. Not out of some perceived ideological commonality with fatah.

I'm still fuzzy on the idea that racism from an oppressed people is left-wing.

I see what you did there. Twisted desire for self determination into racism.
This dishonesty and lack of interest in actual discussion really bores me.
 

[OttoVonBismarck]

The WB/Gaza Arabs don't want "self-determination" they want to live under the rule of a terror state ala the Taliban and kill every Jew in the levant. You're fucking nuts if you think they want self-determination, they want to kill the Jews.