Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

Yasser Arafat used to go on about how he was descended from Canaanites. He also would rant on about how the Jewish temple was never in Jerusalem, but in Yemen or something.  That was actually a stumbling block at Camp David.  Palestinians typically claim that Jews are in fact of decedents of the Khazars (who they envision as white Europeans) and thus have no real tie to the Israel.  Yes, racist nationalists are pretty weird.

[viper37]

Just out of curiosity, how long does a people have to live in a land before they start to be "native".  How long after they leave it do they lose that status?

How many New Englanders consider themselves natives of England? or Germany? The Netherlands?
Do you often see American politicians referring to Americans as "my fellow Englishmen" ?
Do you think you could go back to the UK, claim you've always been there and request a house for yourself if Trump is elected and his government starts chasing non Republican loyalists?

[Razgovory]

Just out of curiosity, how long does a people have to live in a land before they start to be "native".  How long after they leave it do they lose that status?

How many New Englanders consider themselves natives of England? or Germany? The Netherlands?
Do you often see American politicians referring to Americans as "my fellow Englishmen" ?
Do you think you could go back to the UK, claim you've always been there and request a house for yourself if Trump is elected and his government starts chasing non Republican loyalists?

Are you trying to say I'm indigenous?

[crazy canuck]

Yasser Arafat used to go on about how he was descended from Canaanites. He also would rant on about how the Jewish temple was never in Jerusalem, but in Yemen or something.  That was actually a stumbling block at Camp David.  Palestinians typically claim that Jews are in fact of decedents of the Khazars (who they envision as white Europeans) and thus have no real tie to the Israel.  Yes, racist nationalists are pretty weird.

He was probably right about being a descendant of the Canaanites.  90% of the current Lebanese population are and there is no reason to think the numbers would be very different for Palestine (to use the name of the territory created after the fall of the Ottoman Empire).

He was certainly wrong about the claim that Jews had a different genetic heritage.  As the authors of the genetic study put it:

"You can have genetically similar or indistinguishable populations that are culturally very different and don't get on with one another at all," Tyler-Smith says. This might have been the case with the Israelites and the Canaanites—similar genes, but sworn enemies.

Here is the link describing the research. The bit about the genetic heritage of the Canaanites is itself pretty interesting.

https://www.science.org/content/article/ancient-dna-reveals-fate-mysterious-canaanites

[The Minsky Moment]

Yasser Arafat used to go on about how he was descended from Canaanites.

But not Philistines.

[Razgovory]

As it happens the Muslims of Lebanon do not claim to be decedent's of Canaanites.  They claim to be the decedents of Arab invaders.  They claim the Christians are the decedents of Canaanites.  It's funny how politics can warp national identity.

[Valmy]

As it happens the Muslims of Lebanon do not claim to be decedent's of Canaanites.  They claim to be the decedents of Arab invaders.  They claim the Christians are the decedents of Canaanites.  It's funny how politics can warp national identity.

I hate to break it to you Raz but both of us are probably descendants of the Canaanites.

[viper37]

Just out of curiosity, how long does a people have to live in a land before they start to be "native".  How long after they leave it do they lose that status?

How many New Englanders consider themselves natives of England? or Germany? The Netherlands?
Do you often see American politicians referring to Americans as "my fellow Englishmen" ?
Do you think you could go back to the UK, claim you've always been there and request a house for yourself if Trump is elected and his government starts chasing non Republican loyalists?

Are you trying to say I'm indigenous?

Are you?

[Razgovory]

Responding to viper is never a winning strategy.

[Josquius]

For a lot of reasons, I don't think modern Palestinians think of themselves as the inheritors of the Philistine heritage, despite the name. If I'm wrong about that, it's pretty weird.

I've mostly seen it from the anti-Palestinian side.  Basically "Israelis are totally native and have been there since god gave them the land thousands of years ago whilst the Palestinians are just Philistines, Greek invaders, foreigners, who cares that it was 3000 years ago that makes them foreign"
But Raz was arguing purely about the word itself being a modern creation.
In reality I don't think many people were descendants of the original Philistines, their genetic contribution even in their country was pretty negliable.

My point was that Palestinians were first referenced as invaders, not natives.  They were attacking Egypt.  The Egyptians moved them to Caanan.  Israelites were named as a people already in situ.

Again you're moving the goal posts here. You were arguing the word Palestine didn't exist before the 20th century. Now you're shifting onto which people were there first in ancient history.

Pretty sure the first written record about both is speaking about them as a neighbouring people.

Basically everyone comes from somewhere originally. But lets pretend the Israelis were there in their fully established settled civilization and then in 1000BC the Palestinians invaded.... You're seriously going to pretend this gives modern Israelis more rights to be there?
Literal ancient history?
Long before the vast majority of groups we know today were anywhere near where they are?
This is the same shit the Imperial Japanese used to legitimise their rule over Korea. Only their historic claims go to about 1500 years later.

Consider too the actual history, that the original Philistines were a minority even in their own country and the sheer amount of intermixing that has happened over thousands of years... The Israelis and the Palestinians are the Philistines and the Israelites (and myriad other people besides).

Am I indigenous anywhere?  Are you?  Or does it "not work that way"?

Am I indigenous anywhere? I mean...ish? Most of my grandparents come from round here, a majority of my genetics are from the British Isles.... But to go around and claim I therefore am more entitled to be British than someone whose grandparents come from elsewhere in the world would be daft.
What percentage of foreign blood would render me ineligible for being a native Brit? Could I be indigenous to two places?
What if you've got someone who is totally native american genetically but is brought up in Italy?
People don't slot into neat categories the way the far right would have us believe. We're all a bunch of mud bloods.

But that comes onto an interesting one about genetics and names- the English. There's quite the ongoing debate about the extent to which people in Britain are actually 'English'.
Some studies suggest a massive genocide across most of England with a massive population replacement, others suggest basically nothing has changed in the majority of the British genetic makeup since the stone age.
Regardless of the genetics though, this small group of invaders made sure their name stuck even if they didn't actually impact the local population genetically all that much (I believe this is the current dominant narrative with the English).
That's basically what happened with the Philistines in their corner of the Levant, with the Romans then helping to push it up to being the dominant name for a huge chunk of the place for 2000 years.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I generally only think the concept of indigenous is a useful distinction in the Americas and Australia and some other colonized islands where the original people are now a minority. It gets rather obnoxious in the Old World.

This is correct BTW, and I said so posts ago--focusing on "blood and soil" arguments is immoral, it is literally the same sort of arguments the Nazis made. No one has a bloodborne right to a specific patch of soil, claims to land have to be evaluated on higher principles and each situation is distinct.

People who create antisemitic Nazi narratives like "settler-colonialism" are promoting Hitler ideology in a modern disguise.

[crazy canuck]

As it happens the Muslims of Lebanon do not claim to be decedent's of Canaanites.  They claim to be the decedents of Arab invaders.  They claim the Christians are the decedents of Canaanites.  It's funny how politics can warp national identity.

That's the problem with defining groups through cultural or religious traits rather than genetics.

While it is true that their religion was spread through war and conquest, Genetics tells us that the people are basically the same.

[Razgovory]

For a lot of reasons, I don't think modern Palestinians think of themselves as the inheritors of the Philistine heritage, despite the name. If I'm wrong about that, it's pretty weird.

I've mostly seen it from the anti-Palestinian side.  Basically "Israelis are totally native and have been there since god gave them the land thousands of years ago whilst the Palestinians are just Philistines, Greek invaders, foreigners, who cares that it was 3000 years ago that makes them foreign"
But Raz was arguing purely about the word itself being a modern creation.
In reality I don't think many people were descendants of the original Philistines, their genetic contribution even in their country was pretty negliable.

My point was that Palestinians were first referenced as invaders, not natives.  They were attacking Egypt.  The Egyptians moved them to Caanan.  Israelites were named as a people already in situ.

Again you're moving the goal posts here. You were arguing the word Palestine didn't exist before the 20th century. Now you're shifting onto which people were there first in ancient history.

Pretty sure the first written record about both is speaking about them as a neighbouring people.

Basically everyone comes from somewhere originally. But lets pretend the Israelis were there in their fully established settled civilization and then in 1000BC the Palestinians invaded.... You're seriously going to pretend this gives modern Israelis more rights to be there?
Literal ancient history?
Long before the vast majority of groups we know today were anywhere near where they are?
This is the same shit the Imperial Japanese used to legitimise their rule over Korea. Only their historic claims go to about 1500 years later.

Consider too the actual history, that the original Philistines were a minority even in their own country and the sheer amount of intermixing that has happened over thousands of years... The Israelis and the Palestinians are the Philistines and the Israelites (and myriad other people besides).

Am I indigenous anywhere?  Are you?  Or does it "not work that way"?

Am I indigenous anywhere? I mean...ish? Most of my grandparents come from round here, a majority of my genetics are from the British Isles.... But to go around and claim I therefore am more entitled to be British than someone whose grandparents come from elsewhere in the world would be daft.
What percentage of foreign blood would render me ineligible for being a native Brit? Could I be indigenous to two places?
What if you've got someone who is totally native american genetically but is brought up in Italy?
People don't slot into neat categories the way the far right would have us believe. We're all a bunch of mud bloods.

But that comes onto an interesting one about genetics and names- the English. There's quite the ongoing debate about the extent to which people in Britain are actually 'English'.
Some studies suggest a massive genocide across most of England with a massive population replacement, others suggest basically nothing has changed in the majority of the British genetic makeup since the stone age.
Regardless of the genetics though, this small group of invaders made sure their name stuck even if they didn't actually impact the local population genetically all that much (I believe this is the current dominant narrative with the English).
That's basically what happened with the Philistines in their corner of the Levant, with the Romans then helping to push it up to being the dominant name for a huge chunk of the place for 2000 years.

No, I was trying to point out that Israel was not founded in Palestine, I did not claim that the word Palestine the word didn't exist prior to the 20th century, I claim the Palestinian identity didn't exist in any meaningful way. In the same you don't identify as a Brigantes and if someone claimed to be Brigantes nationalist and decided to throw out refugees and immigrants, you'd think they were daft.

I am heartened that now admit the antizionist movement is "far-right", the idea of indigenousness is very, very important to them.  So you might have the right to live where you do, do I?

[Syt]

Lebanese health ministry reports almost 500 dead after recent Israeli air strikes: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3wy8kpy3eo

This is all gonna get a lot worse before it gets better, doesn't it?

[Josquius]

No, I was trying to point out that Israel was not founded in Palestine,

I mean, leaving aside all morality and taking sides over the current situation...it pretty literally was.

I did not claim that the word Palestine the word didn't exist prior to the 20th century, I claim the Palestinian identity didn't exist in any meaningful way.

Nice goalpost move. But its easy to scroll up and see what you said.

In the same you don't identify as a Brigantes and if someone claimed to be Brigantes nationalist and decided to throw out refugees and immigrants, you'd think they were daft.

I already made that point to rubbish your claims (I used Gauls).

I am heartened that now admit the antizionist movement is "far-right", the idea of indigenousness is very, very important to them.  So you might have the right to live where you do, do I?

You've still yet to admit the key point in here, that the zionist movement is "far right" , and the idea of indigenousness is very, very important to them.

I have the right to live where I live, I assume you do too, do the Palestinians?

Seriously, you have the cheek to claim I'm the one taking this indigenousness is so important stance when you're the one pushing it. Getting on board with the very shifty arguments that 'Israel' was there a few hundred years earlier, thousands of years ago, thus deserves everything.