2024 Paris Olympics megathread

[Barrister]

You find it tired and lazy even though it doesn't even refer to christianity? Ok. 

The French Catholic bishops (and me) thought it referred to Christianity.

My view from over here is the event planners didn't expect the reaction they got and pivoted to "well it has nothing to do with Christianity" afterwards.

What is it with right-wing folks that give them a propensity for always thinking it's a conspiracy or "they're lying"...

I think you're infinitely more familiar with Da Vinci's painting and are also way more receptive to the culture war BS our southern neighbours revel in. As mentioned previously, the director said it was a greek bacchanal. As mentioned previously, the literal blue painted dude representing Dionysos should have been kind of a huge hint, but you guys see what you wanna see I guess.

So there's a huge difference between "it's a conspiracy!" and "they're lying!".

Conspiracies are almost never true.  They're a way for people to ignore the plain truth that's right in front of them.  Let's take Trump's assassination attempt from a couple of weeks ago.  The facts seem pretty clear - a lone wacko took a shot at Trump and missed.  But conspiracy theories immediately sprung up on both the left and the right - either that it was a "deep state" assassination attempt to take out Trump, or that it was a Trump-driven "false flag" to increase sympathy for Trump.

You can almost always discount conspiracies.  You can't get a large number of people to hide a conspiracy of any size.

On the other hand though - people lie all the freaking time.

[Jacob]

Seems more like a desperate cry for relevance from this French Bishop than any kind of slight towards Christianity.

[Sheilbh]

So people sitting on one side of a table is automatically a reference to Jesus, essentially? And a reason to be offended if you disapprove of the type of people sitting at the table?

That's a bit of a stretch IMO.

Maybe not all images of people on one side of the table but in the opening tableau, there were twelve people on one side of the table. The two people nearest the central figure were leaning away from her, and she was in a rich dark blue dress with a crown of stars (Mary in Catholic imagery).

I think da Vinci's Last Supper is one of the most iconic images in Western culture - like Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel. Two fingers almost touching is a reference to that representation of Adam and God even if it's accidental.

It's why I also don't really think the "actually it's referencing this Dutch old master Supper of Dionysus" because Northern European artists toured Italy as part of their education - that is playing (and paganising the Last Supper). But I also think it was both because there were two separate sections. The first was a tableau of twelve which linked into the fashion section I think and then it went back for the performance (with Philippe Katerine). I think it was Last Supper into Dionysus.

These images are so deeply woven into our visual culture there's intertextual plays with them without people even being aware. That's a possibility. But I find the idea that in an events team of well-educated French cultural professionals no-one spotted it a bit implausible.

But personally I'd own it Some Christians can and will be offended. Who cares. This is France (and I think that sometimes admiring sometimes irreverent attitude to "old masters" is as much a part of French culture as staunch laicite). Plus, as we've seen with Charlie Hebdo and others, French culture is in pretty much every respect offensive to Anglo-American standards and approaches. That in itself is part of the opening ceremony celebrating modern France - we just don't realise because we don't see it often.

And literally who cares if it is a deliberate attempt to offend Christians. Again this is France

[Josquius]

On the bmx. That was cool but wow was it fast.
Seems to be all about how you start as if you get stuck behind the others you're screwed.
I wonder if the French 3 had a plan to work together?


The opening ceremony stuff - art history is not an area I am too into.
But it strikes me with the last supper as a renaissance painting wouldn't it be drawing on Roman and Greek imagery itself?
Did it invent the sitcom everyone sits around one side of the table view or was it influenced by something earlier?

Not representative at all but in the wake of the ceremony all I heard from my francophone circle was it was a funny contrast to go from classy can can dancers to mostly nude smurf god Katerin.

[Sheilbh]

The opening ceremony stuff - art history is not an area I am too into.
But it strikes me with the last supper as a renaissance painting wouldn't it be drawing on Roman and Greek imagery itself?
Did it invent the sitcom everyone sits around one side of the table view or was it influenced by something earlier?

I'd guess more Christian imagery - but absolutely, it'll be in conversation with similar images from the past.

Da Vinci's has a special place in the Western imagination because it is so iconic (like Michaelangelo's Adam and God) not because it's unique. I think the only thing that's "unique" about it is that it depicts the moment Christ says one of the disciples will betray him - so it's all about the reactions of everyone else. I think that was the uniquely "what was the moment of most drama" innovation from da Vinci

[Jacob]

Okay, if there were thirteen people seated at the table - with six people arrayed on each side of a central character - then yeah I'll agree that it's a reference the Last Supper.

But ya' know, as is well established - a massive part of Western culture and the Western canon is rooted in Christianity. We're allowed to refer to it as it's part of our heritage.

[Barrister]

Seems more like a desperate cry for relevance from this French Bishop than any kind of slight towards Christianity.

It wasn't "a'" Catholic Bishop - it was the French Conference of Bishops, in a statement released by the Vatican.  And who are the people who actually own the painting (Catholic Church, not French Bishops specifically)

[Jacob]

Seems more like a desperate cry for relevance from this French Bishop than any kind of slight towards Christianity.

It wasn't "a'" Catholic Bishop - it was the French Conference of Bishops, in a statement released by the Vatican.  And who are the people who actually own the painting (Catholic Church, not French Bishops specifically)

Fair enough (though any IP rights from ownership of the painting would have expired a while ago).

[HVC]

So people sitting on one side of a table is automatically a reference to Jesus, essentially? And a reason to be offended if you disapprove of the type of people sitting at the table?

That's a bit of a stretch IMO.

Maybe not all images of people on one side of the table but in the opening tableau, there were twelve people on one side of the table. The two people nearest the central figure were leaning away from her, and she was in a rich dark blue dress with a crown of stars (Mary in Catholic imagery).

I think da Vinci's Last Supper is one of the most iconic images in Western culture - like Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel. Two fingers almost touching is a reference to that representation of Adam and God even if it's accidental.

It's why I also don't really think the "actually it's referencing this Dutch old master Supper of Dionysus" because Northern European artists toured Italy as part of their education - that is playing (and paganising the Last Supper). But I also think it was both because there were two separate sections. The first was a tableau of twelve which linked into the fashion section I think and then it went back for the performance (with Philippe Katerine). I think it was Last Supper into Dionysus.

These images are so deeply woven into our visual culture there's intertextual plays with them without people even being aware. That's a possibility. But I find the idea that in an events team of well-educated French cultural professionals no-one spotted it a bit implausible.

But personally I'd own it Some Christians can and will be offended. Who cares. This is France (and I think that sometimes admiring sometimes irreverent attitude to "old masters" is as much a part of French culture as staunch laicite). Plus, as we've seen with Charlie Hebdo and others, French culture is in pretty much every respect offensive to Anglo-American standards and approaches. That in itself is part of the opening ceremony celebrating modern France - we just don't realise because we don't see it often.

And literally who cares if it is a deliberate attempt to offend Christians. Again this is France

I'd have more respect for them if the producers went ahead and said Cristian sensibilities. The disingenuous act, again from what it appears to me, is more aggregating.

[Sheilbh]

But ya' know, as is well established - a massive part of Western culture and the Western canon is rooted in Christianity. We're allowed to refer to it as it's part of our heritage.

Agreed.

But also I think it's fine if the Catholic Bishops of France get offended at the lack of respect being shown to mother church (plus ca change for the past 200 years).

I've got less time for American evangelicals whose idea of Christian art is Christ protecting Trump getting deeply offended. Let's deal with the 500 years of iconoclasm before you're suddenly pearl-clutching about people disrespecting Christian art

[Zoupa]

   

French people don't care about Christians' feelings, it's true.

You know what we care about even less? Religion itself. Certainly not enough to make it part of our first Olympics in a generation.

Y'all need to grow up.

[HVC]

   

French people don't care about Christians' feelings, it's true.

You know what we care about even less? Religion itself. Certainly not enough to make it part of our first Olympics in a generation.

Y'all need to grow up.

So all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic

[Sheilbh]

So all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic

I very much doubt it was "aimed" at Christians (my own read was more it was about a play of the sacral/high end of the fashion section, to the debauched dionysian - very Olympic Games). I just think da Vinci's Last Supper is part of Western iconography which has been played with and subverted and reinterpreted consciously and not for centuries.

[HVC]

So all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic

I very much doubt it was "aimed" at Christians (my own read was more it was about a play of the sacral/high end of the fashion section, to the debauched dionysian - very Olympic Games). I just think da Vinci's Last Supper is part of Western iconography which has been played with and subverted and reinterpreted consciously and not for centuries.

Sorry, I didn't mean this particular incident was a purposeful dig. Might be, but I don't know their mind. I think at the very least it was a purposeful allusion which could easily be foreseen as offensive to some. My comment was more towards what I feel is a general feeling in French society. See hijabs.

[Jacob]

So all the points of similarity sheilbh brings up are just coincidental. And France has long passed the tippping point of not caring to being actively antagonistic

There's nothing inherently antagonistic about referencing something in the Western cultural canon.