[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

I think it demonstrates how diminished or political class has become.  In my youth the backbenches of both parties were filled with well educated and experienced people.

But they were backbenchers, just like today, they weren't allowed to speak much outside of their ridings, and only to repeat the party line.

I remember André Plourde, our MP when I was a kid during Mulroney's years.  He appears in 3 C-Span videos.  He was an businessman and industrialist, coming from a regional industrialist family involved in forestry.  I can't remember any of his political achievement.

I think you are suffering from misplaced nostalgia.

Our political system was never good, it was always designed to reward sycophants and boot lickers, and give power to the PM, the true representative of the Queen's/King's powers in the colony.

[crazy canuck]

I think it demonstrates how diminished or political class has become.  In my youth the backbenches of both parties were filled with well educated and experienced people.

But they were backbenchers, just like today, they weren't allowed to speak much outside of their ridings, and only to repeat the party line.

I remember André Plourde, our MP when I was a kid during Mulroney's years.  He appears in 3 C-Span videos.  He was an businessman and industrialist, coming from a regional industrialist family involved in forestry.  I can't remember any of his political achievement.

I think you are suffering from misplaced nostalgia.

Our political system was never good, it was always designed to reward sycophants and boot lickers, and give power to the PM, the true representative of the Queen's/King's powers in the colony.

We may be too young to remember a time when cabinet minister were who had doctorate degrees, decades in the private sector, and often both.

I assumed you would know this when I was talking about the back benchers. I mentioned the back bencher because the talent within the political class was significant.  Now we have a bunch of politicians whose biggest claim to fame is that they were in the party club at the University for their undergraduate degree or they are children of former party members or Prime Ministers.

There are a lot of reasons for why we have this shift from an abundance of talent to a dearth of talent. But the fact that a shift has occurred is untenable.

[Sheilbh]

So someone senior in Starmer's team talked about using Citizens' Assemblies under a new Labour government - which kicked off lots of takes (I'm basically: ambivalent ).

But one, which I think has something to it, is that part of the reason there is some demand to move policy formulation, decision-making and enforcement away from politicians to various other bodies is that the stock of elected politicians has fallen so much. And I don't fully know how I feel about it, but the argument is that the incentives haven't really changed dramatically and we've always shit, decent and good politicians - but it does feel like the quality has noticeably fallen in my lifetime.

It's also about the only thing that makes me into a Colonel from the Shires and wondering if there's something to some form of national service, because I think it's very easy in modern Western societies to basically live your entire life without ever touching the sides. Not just, as you say, doing student politics at university but going from upper middle-class childhood, to a good school, to a good university where you do student politics, to party politics with your (upper middle-class) friends from university. Other people are them, not us because you can live a life without ever having to meet them.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, I think there is a lot to that.  We currently have a trust fund PM and a campus club opposition leader.

There a few exceptions but the main criteria for being in cabinet is having been a friend of the PM in either high school or undergrad.

There is one minister who has done meaningful postgraduate work but he has been sidelined.

I am a bit older than you.  When I was doing my undergraduate degree we studied policy papers authored by politicians past and present.

Politicians would come to campus to have debates, real debates about the policy questions of the day.

In the Canadian context I don't recall any politicians authoring a policy paper in the last 10 years, with the exception of Preston Manning.

And policy debate? That has devolved into intellectually dishonest YouTube videos.

[Sheilbh]

I think there's a bit of a vicious cycle as well.

Politicians are held in such contempt and subject to abuse both on social media and (more rarely) in person in their constituency, that it's a really shit job. So even if you put aside pay - I think there was a time when there was a level of status in MPs (including backbenchers).

I think that's gone. So to an extent the only people who are remotely interested in going into it are, for want of a better word, sickos

I am also aware and think I'm very guilty of a sort of survivor bias - we remember the outstanding figures (which I'm about to do) of a time rather than the run of the mill backbencher.

I don't remember or know of policy papers as a big tradiition in the UK (my feeling is MPs associate more with think tanks/traditions like the Fabians or Centre for Policy Studies), but when I was in sixth form doing A-levels, I did politics as an AS. There were big conferences - the one I went to was in Methodist Central Hall on Parliament Square which sits a few thousand. It was basically a few thousand 17-18 year old politics students for a day with various politicians who would not debate but basically do a speech and then open to questions from the mics around the room.

Some of it is nostalgia, no doubt, but the speakers at the event I went to included Ken Clarke who's a very substantial figure (former Chancellor, Health Secretary and Tory leadership candidate - been in the cabinet since the 80s), John Reid who was, I think, Home Secretary at the time (working class Glawegian, former Communist activist, went to university as a mature student and ended up doing a PhD before ending up as a Blairite ultra) and Charles Kennedy who was leader of the Lib Dems (and, I think, one of the most charismatic politicians around that time). And any one of those three seem just vastly more impressive than 90% of the front (or back) benches of either of the main parties.

I should say I think those conferences still happen and they still get very senior speakers.

[HVC]

Cheaper to fly from Calgary for school then to rent in Vancouver

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3YIR0ggin9/?igsh=MWNkdGVkNm9ybzZqdg==

[viper37]

I think it demonstrates how diminished or political class has become.  In my youth the backbenches of both parties were filled with well educated and experienced people.

But they were backbenchers, just like today, they weren't allowed to speak much outside of their ridings, and only to repeat the party line.

I remember André Plourde, our MP when I was a kid during Mulroney's years.  He appears in 3 C-Span videos.  He was an businessman and industrialist, coming from a regional industrialist family involved in forestry.  I can't remember any of his political achievement.

I think you are suffering from misplaced nostalgia.

Our political system was never good, it was always designed to reward sycophants and boot lickers, and give power to the PM, the true representative of the Queen's/King's powers in the colony.

We may be too young to remember a time when cabinet minister were who had doctorate degrees, decades in the private sector, and often both.

I assumed you would know this when I was talking about the back benchers. I mentioned the back bencher because the talent within the political class was significant.  Now we have a bunch of politicians whose biggest claim to fame is that they were in the party club at the University for their undergraduate degree or they are children of former party members or Prime Ministers.

There are a lot of reasons for why we have this shift from an abundance of talent to a dearth of talent. But the fact that a shift has occurred is untenable.

You are talking 19th century, very early 20th century.

I thought you were talking 1980s-1990s.

It was also an era where corruption was legal, and openly written about.

[crazy canuck]

In Quebec, yes

[Barrister]

Poilievre wades into trans rights again.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/poilievre-ban-trans-women-sports-bathrooms-1.7120972

Now reading the article he's answering in response to a question, and not making a major policy announcement.  But I still think it's a mistake and he should know better than to answer this kind of hot-button question.

In his answer Poilievre says "biological males" should be banned from female spaces, like women's sports and bathrooms.

The thing is - none of this is within federal jurisdiction, and sports leagues (and bathroom owners) should be able to do whatever the heck they want and not have the federal government dictating who can use what bathroom.

[Valmy]

I mean it has never been illegal for biological males to use women's bathrooms. Sometimes one of the bathrooms is closed. Moms often bring their little boys in to use the bathroom. Sometimes people just fuck up and use the wrong bathroom by mistake.

I don't really get the big safety issue with bathrooms. I mean if you are a big enough monster to rape somebody and for some reason think a public space is the best place to do that, there is literally nothing stopping you currently from just walking into a woman's bathroom and raping somebody if laws and decency don't dissuade you. What is this law supposed to deter all the law abiding rapists? No. It is just designed to allow the police and the legal system to abuse trans people. Because that is what we do with undesirables regardless of how law abiding they are.

Now apparently there are shower rooms that exist that are just huge open rooms where everybody just walks around naked. That kind of blows me away, since even in the 1960s locker room we used for gym in Middle School they had stalls for the showers. But I guess for people who think walking around naked among strangers is just fine so long as everybody has the same biological sex then...sure. I guess you can ban people from using that creepy shit. Probably doing them a favor anyway. Hell just put stalls in them like normal shower facilities and get rid of those weird open concept shower rooms.

As far as sports are concerned I only think it would be good for gender relations for boys and girls to play each other in sports. It is supposed to build team work and community. That's good. Sure I guess if you have some super competitive league where everybody is fighting for an edge then ok I can see that. But that is a very small minority of sports leagues. Most of them are recreational and I think it is actually good for society for males and females to build community together. Banning it just because you are worried about professional level competition is kind of a crazy over-reaction. So yeah, leave it up to the league and the community how they want to organize their sports.

[Sheilbh]

Total aside - yeah there's definitely still all open showers in gyms etc here - I assume fancy (and/or recently renovated ) ones have stalls.

Same with hospital wards. When I got injured in Georgia I had to come back and was in a room on my own for two days and thought that was normal. Then I discovered there's actually just a different strain of MRSA in continental Europe so you have to be isolation for twenty four hours if you've come from a hospital there, and I was moved into a small ward with three other (occupied) beds.

This was immediately before covid as well which was something I thought about a lot - especially as there was one very old man (who was incredibly difficult but also very needy with the nurses) who had just a huge assortment of his possessions around his bed. While I was there (for about a week) social workers from the council came twice because they'd found social care or sheltered accommodation for him as he was well enough to discharge and he threw what a was basically a massive tantrum both times. He didn't want to move and I think was basically just quite lonely.

There was one other guy who was relatively young - he was basically a scally in his twenties - who, with my very limited knowledge, sounded pretty culpable for the massive car crash that put him in hospital. The other residents were elderly men and I've often thought of the impact covid must have had in that ward. I expect him, who was well enough to go into care was probably forced into a care home to free up a bed - and it was very likely, if anything, even worse in the care system than the hospitals. Except for the young guy I basically doubt if any of the other men in that ward are still alive

[garbon]

When I was with virgin active they had stalls.

[Sheilbh]

When I was with virgin active they had stalls.

Fancy (not council)

Oasis in Holborn (which, on the upside has a great open pool) didn't have stalls last time I was there but that was a while ago. Camberwell gym and pool got renovated while I lived there - maybe 7/8 years ago, so got stalls. But both council leisure centres.

[Barrister]

Hockey rinks all have just open rooms for showers, with 2-8 shower heads depending on the room.

I resisted using them for years, so I'd just go home all sweaty.  But one day I took the plunge - and what the hell was I worried about?  It's not like anyone is looking at anyone else's junk.

I should say I play on a co-ed team (though mostly men).  The women don't use the shower, and the men make sure to not have their junk hanging out when in the dressing room (and not the shower room).

[Josephus]

One of the first things they made us do in high school gym was shower in open showers. Showers after gym class was compulsory. I think the idea was to get us used to male nudity? I remember one guy, we shall call him Gary, used to have a raging hardon