TV/Movies Megathread

[Sheilbh]

And ingnores entirely that Nappy brought academics with him - it certainly plays to English prejudices that he went there to destroy what he found.

I think it's a brilliant moment that captures my sense of him from my (very limited knowledge) - because those are two sides of the same coin with the enlightenment, right? The admired drive to know is part of violent conquest, imperialism - and vice versa. They are intimately bound up in a way that I think is uniquely embodied in Napoleon.

I think you have a side of that in Abel's Napoleon. I think it's why film-makers and everyone else is still so engaged by him.

[Josquius]

Funny how napoleon got rehabilitated. Wasn't he like the hitler before hitler in Europe? The boogeyman name people used to describe bad guys/leaders. Or am I misremembering?

I wonder when that went away. I get vibes insulting people for being little napoleons was a thing up until the 70s or so?
Could be totally misremembering - and purely based off media of the time of course, I wasn't around.

[Tamas]

The difference between Caesar and Napoleon is that one is judged by sources written largely by himself, the other isn't.

[Gups]

I don't think the English are any more anti-Nappy than anyone else (excl. the French). Probably 95% have either never heard of him or have no view one way or the other. There's some fanboys, some consider him responsible for millions of deaths. Personally inclne towards the latter but still find plenty to admire about him.

[HVC]

The difference between Caesar and Napoleon is that one is judged by sources written largely by himself, the other isn't.

I mean he was assassinated, so clearly people had bad opinions about even in his time

[Josephus]

Bah...what do I know. My knowledge of Quebec stuff is based on what I learned in Ontario.

[Sheilbh]

I wonder when that went away. I get vibes insulting people for being little napoleons was a thing up until the 70s or so?
Could be totally misremembering - and purely based off media of the time of course, I wasn't around.

I've never heard "little Napoleon" - only "little Hitler". I think even in the 19th century you have "Napoleon of..." - so I think the press referred to some people on trial as the "Napoleon of crime" then picked up by Conan Doyle for Moriaty. But it's not just negative I think you have it for industrialists too. I think at that stage when there is more of a public sense of him, he is the definitive great man.

I'm with Gups, we're not in the 1820s.

[Josquius]

Just remembered the main place I heard it - Dad's Army.
Could have been 70s folk purposefully being retro. Or that characters own weird quirk.

[Duque de Bragança]

In France, there is or was some kind of distinction made between Bonaparte and Napoléon (from the crowning).

The former being roughly mostly about stabilising and reorganising the country following the French Revolution with the Napoleonic code and with a limited number of offensive wars, while the latter goes full tyrant and invades left and right.

It's one way to review his legacy.

[Sheilbh]

Just remembered the main place I heard it - Dad's Army.
Could have been 70s folk purposefully being retro. Or that characters own weird quirk.

Yeah I think that is taking 70s language of "little Hitler" and applying it to the 40s rather than actual 40s language. So I think it's a deliberate anachronism.

[crazy canuck]

I wonder when that went away. I get vibes insulting people for being little napoleons was a thing up until the 70s or so?
Could be totally misremembering - and purely based off media of the time of course, I wasn't around.

I've never heard "little Napoleon" - only "little Hitler". I think even in the 19th century you have "Napoleon of..." - so I think the press referred to some people on trial as the "Napoleon of crime" then picked up by Conan Doyle for Moriaty. But it's not just negative I think you have it for industrialists too. I think at that stage when there is more of a public sense of him, he is the definitive great man.

I'm with Gups, we're not in the 1820s.

Interesting, the phrase "Napoleon complex" has been used repeatedly in English language popular culture during your lifetime.



I wonder whether it was more of a North American phenomenon.

[crazy canuck]

And ingnores entirely that Nappy brought academics with him - it certainly plays to English prejudices that he went there to destroy what he found.

I think it's a brilliant moment that captures my sense of him from my (very limited knowledge) - because those are two sides of the same coin with the enlightenment, right? The admired drive to know is part of violent conquest, imperialism - and vice versa. They are intimately bound up in a way that I think is uniquely embodied in Napoleon.

I think you have a side of that in Abel's Napoleon. I think it's why film-makers and everyone else is still so engaged by him.

How is a scene that portrayed him as destroying what he brought people to study brilliant cinema?

[Sheilbh]

Interesting, the phrase "Napoleon complex" has been used repeatedly in English language popular culture during your lifetime.

"Little Hitler"/"little Napoleon" isn't about height itself. It's used about jumped up, over-officious types - especially bureaucrats. More a gone mad with a little power. Classic example (especially from sitcoms) are traffic wardens, park keepers etc.

Honestly only time I hear Napoleon complex talked about is in reference to French Presidents

How is a scene that portrayed him as destroying what he brought people to study brilliant cinema?

I meant Napoleon in Egypt was a brilliant moment that captures his contradictions - which are the contradictions of his age. No idea if that scene's good cinema - ahven't seen it.

Also, bluntly, it wasn't a science trip. There was definitely genuine historical, scientific and academic interest - but it was also propaganda (both for Europe and within Egypt) and it was also an expression of imperial power - and specifically of enlightenment, civilising imperialism that came to dominate, particularly, French imperialism in the 19th century. Those are all tangled together.

I'd add that French troops came to be loathed in Egypt for lack of respect for local customs, religion, traditions etc (despite some of Napoleon's gestures - and the mad, untrue story that he converted to Islam, which he might have been encouraging/tolerating ambiguously). There were revolts against them and French troops killed thousands of Egyptians who were not Mamluks. Many took refuge in al-Azhar, one of the oldest universities in the world and by then an almost 1,000 year old mosque - and the French bombarded it with cannon.

Interestingly the contrast of the savants fascinated by Egypt's geography, geology and history, with French contempt for actual living Egyptians and their culture is perhaps reflected in the long debunked story that Napoleon's troops blew the nose of the Sphinx off, or Scott having them fire cannons at the Pyramids. I think both show more respect for long-dead Egyptians than Egypt as it is - and can't help but think of the echo of revolutionary era French troops firing on al-Azhar with the Enlightenment v Islam dichotomy that people still make.

[crazy canuck]

Having a Napoleon complex is also not just about height it means the same things you described. If you have heard of the Napoleon complex, it is essentially the same thing. A derogatory comment about Napoleon that exists primarily, if not exclusively within the English-speaking world and that is the point we are debating.

I'm not sure why you need to be blunt about it not being a science trip. It is indisputable that he did bring academics along with him. It does a complete disservice to history to suggest otherwise in a movie and particularly since we know that a lot of people will understand Napoleon through this movie.

[grumbler]

I think that Sheilbh is write about the dichotomy between the French fascination with ancient Egypt and their contempt for contemporary Egyptians.

And in the US at east, "Napoleon complex" is used to mean short people trying to compensate for lack of height with an overemphasis on demanding the respect that they believe they are owed by their position.  You don't find tall people being accused of having a Napoleon complex.