Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Jacob]

Yeah. Their take on empire is that we're in a US dominated imperialist system. If you're opposed to the US and US interests then you're anti-imperialist and deserve support.

Some people on the left know about and avoid them (there are, believe it or not, other even more problematic issues with them). But if you just turn up to an anti-austerity/war/racism protest you'll find them around selling their papers and offering people their signs (except BLM, interestingly - I think because it happened too quickly). And most people don't pay quite the level of beady attention to the far left that I do

Their North American counterparts are the International Socialists. I have a very strong dislike for them from my own activist days.

[Razgovory]

then indicate to me how this prevented the growth of the organization.

You're right, they should have been harder on Gaza.

[viper37]

then indicate to me how this prevented the growth of the organization.

You're right, they should have been harder on Gaza.

Israel has said they will occupy Gaza after they're done bombing it to smithereens, so you'll get your happy moment too.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

or maybe because it's about the jews.
Which also nicely explains the dancing and the candy-sharing.

If it's a protest at Concordia, it's likely about the Jews, this is a hotbed of anti-semitism in Montreal.
But candy-sharing is normal this time of the year, there are Halloween surplus.

The candy sharing was explicitly done to celebrate the Hamas terror attacks. That's also a tradition

[Josquius]

Yeah. Their take on empire is that we're in a US dominated imperialist system. If you're opposed to the US and US interests then you're anti-imperialist and deserve support.

Some people on the left know about and avoid them (there are, believe it or not, other even more problematic issues with them). But if you just turn up to an anti-austerity/war/racism protest you'll find them around selling their papers and offering people their signs (except BLM, interestingly - I think because it happened too quickly). And most people don't pay quite the level of beady attention to the far left that I do

Their North American counterparts are the International Socialists. I have a very strong dislike for them from my own activist days.

It sucks that these shit bag groups have such hard to disagree with reasonable names.

Does mean as Sheilbh says you really have to pay attention to know.

[Legbiter]

Unless it's their friend Russia that is imperializing.

Yeah. Their take on empire is that we're in a US dominated imperialist system. If you're opposed to the US and US interests then you're anti-imperialist and deserve support.
:

Here locally the biggest Palestine supporters are the almost geriatric/adult diapers wearing Boomer part of the left, who came of age during the Cold War and had Che Guevara and Castro posters on their bedroom walls in their early adult lives. Then there's the much younger part who are the terminally online identitarian part with various untreated mental illnesses which they've rationalized into political ideologies. And the last part are the seething thirdie Muslims who've washed up on our shores through some failure of immigration policy, although thankfully very few in numbers.

All are deeply unlikable if you're not a loser, each in their own unique way.

[Tamas]

Posters of kidnapped Israelis go viral and then there is a big backlash of how dare they support genocide by highlighting that people have been kidnapped:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-red-white-kidnapped-posters-flyers-palestine-conflict

[Josquius]

Have to say, there's rightfully a lot of condemnation of the rise in anti-Semitism off the back of events, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in the rise in shit heads from the other direction too.
Just today stumbled on a few posts about Arab-Americans having to police what they say, then in the UK there's the attempts to try and muddy the waters between the extremists and general Palestine supporters.
Looks like data supports this too

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/muslim-americans-spike-hate-incidents-feels-reminiscent-post-911-islam-rcna122570

[viper37]

or maybe because it's about the jews.
Which also nicely explains the dancing and the candy-sharing.

If it's a protest at Concordia, it's likely about the Jews, this is a hotbed of anti-semitism in Montreal.
But candy-sharing is normal this time of the year, there are Halloween surplus.

The candy sharing was explicitly done to celebrate the Hamas terror attacks. That's also a tradition

Are you referring to this?
Link
I don't see any indication it is a tradition (the candy sharing).

I've seen multiple instance of this over the years:
Crowd chants death to Arabs
Far right Israelis celebrate Gaza kids deahts
Israeli celebrating toddler's death


And we have these nice guys here:
Gaza is a cemetary
Video from 2015.   A group named Lehava.  Ring a bell?  It opposes Christian and Arab presence in Israel.  Totally nice guys.  Purity of form and essence for Jews, I guess.

Fringe movement in Israel, you'll say.

But the attorney for these guys is the current security minister of Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehava

Is it also an age old tradition in Israel to elect members of the Knesset who wish to decapitate the Arab-Israelis or expel the Palestinians from their lands?

So, on one hand, you have people rejoicing in the death of civilian Israelis and that is horrible, obviously.
But on the other, you guys insist on telling me that rejoicing in the death of Palestinian Arabs, specifically Muslims is a-ok.

But Raz and OvB insists I'm the racist one, with OvB insisting I'm committing blood libel against Israel, when they themselves have now admitted their plans is to "temporarily occupy Gaza" (I assume the same way the USSR temporarily occupied Poland).

Go figure.

[viper37]

US secretary of state Antony Blinken says 'far too many' Palestinians have died
Speaking in New Delhi, Blinken has said the US "appreciates" Israel's steps to minimise civilian casualties but that it is not enough, the Associated Press reports.
He said the US has proposed additional ideas to the Israelis, including longer "humanitarian pauses" and expanding the amount of assistance getting into Gaza.
Israel's efforts to formalise pauses in its military operations and the creation of a second safe corridor for them to use to escape harm are appreciated, he said.
The steps, he said "will save lives and will enable more assistance to get to Palestinians in need," but at the same time, "much more needs to be done to protect civilians and to make sure that humanitarian assistance reaches them."
The US diplomat said "far too many Palestinians have been killed, far too many have suffered these past weeks" and that everything possible should be done to prevent them harm and maximise the assistance they need.

Blinken is an idiot.  Questionning Israel's military strategy like that without having their exact targeting coordinates?  How dare he?

We all know they are strictly attacking military targets and any collateral damage is the result of Hamas using human shields.

***

In other news, at the end of October, Hamas proposed a 5 day truce in exchange for the release of 50 hostages, which was flatly refused by Israel.

I don't know if they should have negotiated something more, but it seems to me that, despite Hamas being untrustworthy, some more exploration should have been made in this sense.

As it is now, there's a huge risk of there being 240 more victims.   I don't know, maybe some proof of life should have been asked at least.

The Guardian link

[Barrister]

Blinken is an idiot.  Questionning Israel's military strategy like that without having their exact targeting coordinates?  How dare he?

BIden gave a 100% full-throated support to Israel Immediately after October 7.  For me that was amazing to see, but didn't go down well with certain parts of his party.  So for internal political reasons he's had to be a bit more nuanced.  I think Bibi and Israel "get that".

We all know they are strictly attacking military targets and any collateral damage is the result of Hamas using human shields.

I mean - I assume that's what they're doing.  But as you know certain people do not necessarily give Israel the benefit of the doubt on such matters.

In other news, at the end of October, Hamas proposed a 5 day truce in exchange for the release of 50 hostages, which was flatly refused by Israel.

I don't know if they should have negotiated something more, but it seems to me that, despite Hamas being untrustworthy, some more exploration should have been made in this sense.

As it is now, there's a huge risk of there being 240 more victims.   I don't know, maybe some proof of life should have been asked at least.

The Guardian link

I don't like to second guess leaders in moments of crisis like this.  There may have been god reasons to turn down such a proposal.  But if it literally was "5 day pause in return for 50 hostages" that sounds like a good deal for Israel.  I was expecting more like "we'll return the hostages in exchange for 100s of Hamas prisoners being released", which would only encourage more hostage taking by Hamas.

[Sheilbh]

I'd handle that truce story with a little care. Netanyahu's team briefed that he rejected it out of hand and there would be no truce without hostages being released.

Israel's government have confirmed there'll be a four hour "pause" every day (apparently under US pressure).

I think it won't be the only example but there is a gap between how Netanyahu is spinning it for his own purposes and decisions taken by Israel's goverment. They may have rejected Hamas's proposed terms but I'd expect more in this direction especially and that we might see more gaps between Netanyahu's language/briefings/spin and what the government actually says/does.

[The Minsky Moment]

Five days gives Hamas a lot of time to recuperate, resupply, dig in, and get more traps in place.  I can understand why Israel wouldn't agree to such a long halt absent release of substantially all the hostages.

[Barrister]

Five days gives Hamas a lot of time to recuperate, resupply, dig in, and get more traps in place.  I can understand why Israel wouldn't agree to such a long halt absent release of substantially all the hostages.

I thought about that, but they've had years to dig in, and had to know October 7 was going to cause a big Israeli response.

But like I said, I'm trying not to second guess the Israelis here.  I'm sure they had good reasons.  It just sounded like a worthwhile offer from Hamas for a change.

[Razgovory]

The Israelis have surrounded Al-Shifa hospital.  That's probably why Hamas has asked for a ceasefire.