Israel-Hamas War 2023

[viper37]

How many would have died if ISIS had been allowed to keep killing people?

ISIS wasn't really mass killing people in cities it had control of, it was primarily killing people it was fighting in attempts to take more territory, and religious minorities in areas where they were captured.

ISIS and regular arab mass murdering autocrats also weren't much of a trigger for mass protests like those we're seeing now. You wonder what is different...

I haven't seen many protests against Russia either.  Two protests maybe.

It's like people know some protests are futile, maybe?

[viper37]

Say again.  Did not recieve.

See correction.

[viper37]

You guys keep it up a while longer and you'll end up viper arguing for the complete destruction of Gaza and Raz and others for immediate ceasefire.

Nah.
OvB and Raz feel these kind of actions are perfectly fine and totally justifiable.
Israeli settler violence

Just people getting shot at, beaten up, forced to leave their homes.  Nothing to dramatic.  Any pretention to the contrary would be blood libel.

[viper37]

Shots fired overnight at two jewish schools in Montreal.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/jewish-schools-doors-shot-1.7023759

Followed by the firebombing of a synagogue and racial riots at Concordia U where first, a Pro-Israeli protest was attacked by a pro-Palestinian mob, then the day after a Pro-Palestinian protest was attacked by pro-Israeli mob.

Bibi is happy.  Jews worldwide don't feel secure anymore and are thinking of moving to Israel to displace even more Palestinians.

[Tamas]

Shots fired overnight at two jewish schools in Montreal.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/jewish-schools-doors-shot-1.7023759

Followed by the firebombing of a synagogue and racial riots at Concordia U where first, a Pro-Israeli protest was attacked by a pro-Palestinian mob, then the day after a Pro-Palestinian protest was attacked by pro-Israeli mob.

Bibi is happy.  Jews worldwide don't feel secure anymore and are thinking of moving to Israel to displace even more Palestinians.

So it's the Jews' fault they are being chased away? Come on man.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

How many would have died if ISIS had been allowed to keep killing people?

ISIS wasn't really mass killing people in cities it had control of, it was primarily killing people it was fighting in attempts to take more territory, and religious minorities in areas where they were captured.

ISIS and regular arab mass murdering autocrats also weren't much of a trigger for mass protests like those we're seeing now. You wonder what is different...

I haven't seen many protests against Russia either.  Two protests maybe.

It's like people know some protests are futile, maybe?

or maybe because it's about the jews.
Which also nicely explains the dancing and the candy-sharing.

[Sheilbh]

I haven't seen many protests against Russia either.  Two protests maybe.

It's like people know some protests are futile, maybe?

There absolutely were protests against Russia. This was London:


There are still regular Ukraine solidarity protests and marches. I'd be surprised if there aren't in many other Western countries too, not least Canada.

Although Stop the War did not protest Russia's invasion - they did a "NATO Hands Off Ukraine" protest though. And on Syria as well as ejecting two Syrian refugees from a meeting when they tried to speak in favour of intervention against Assad, they also refused to participate in a protest outside the Russian Embassy over Russia's bombings in Syria as it would only "contribute to jingoism and hysteria". They're heavily involved in the Palestine protests, of course. They tend to have a stop some wars attitude.

On ISIS there were also protests against them. There are very, very regular Kurdish protests in London. But also against ISIS, tens of thousands of Muslims in London (on Ashura so I assume predominately Shia).

Take the point these are bigger but I think in any big international city there will be protests by lots of people about many issues.

[Admiral Yi]

Protest operates on two sets of logic.  One is purely political.  Look at us, we have lots of votes, you better do what we say.  The other is moral.  We support what is right, and if you are a good person, you should support that too.  The problem is when protestors, like Shelf's Stop the War, base their argument not on a universal principle but on a principle that is applied differently to their friends than to their enemies.  In other words, not a principle at all.  Why should a person who is grappling with moral choices pay any attention to people like that?

[Sheilbh]

Well Stop the War are a Socialist Workers Party front. They've got loads of fronts in areas where they'll find well-meaning folks who'll carry their signs not realising who they are - like StW but also, say, Stand up to Racism, Anti-Nazi League etc.

They have a very distinct agenda. And on universal principle would be that it's anti-imperialism in all of those examples.

[Admiral Yi]

And on universal principle would be that it's anti-imperialism in all of those examples.

Unless it's their friend Russia that is imperializing.

[PJL]

And on universal principle would be that it's anti-imperialism in all of those examples.

Unless it's their friend Russia that is imperializing.

At least it made sense when they were still the USSR. Now it's like communists supporting Hitler.

[viper37]

I haven't seen many protests against Russia either.  Two protests maybe.

It's like people know some protests are futile, maybe?

There absolutely were protests against Russia. This was London:


There are still regular Ukraine solidarity protests and marches. I'd be surprised if there aren't in many other Western countries too, not least Canada.

Although Stop the War did not protest Russia's invasion - they did a "NATO Hands Off Ukraine" protest though. And on Syria as well as ejecting two Syrian refugees from a meeting when they tried to speak in favour of intervention against Assad, they also refused to participate in a protest outside the Russian Embassy over Russia's bombings in Syria as it would only "contribute to jingoism and hysteria". They're heavily involved in the Palestine protests, of course. They tend to have a stop some wars attitude.

On ISIS there were also protests against them. There are very, very regular Kurdish protests in London. But also against ISIS, tens of thousands of Muslims in London (on Ashura so I assume predominately Shia).

Take the point these are bigger but I think in any big international city there will be protests by lots of people about many issues.

I said there weren't many.
Compared to climate protests.  Or anti-Iraq war protests there are few.

Montreal has protests every week-end.  Maybe one was about the war against Ukraine.  You would count more protests against government policies on public transit or negotiations with public employees than about anything else.

 Against ISIS, there was solidarity march, some protest against our government so that that we would grand asylum to more people, but generally, people are against military intervention of any kind.

[viper37]

or maybe because it's about the jews.
Which also nicely explains the dancing and the candy-sharing.

If it's a protest at Concordia, it's likely about the Jews, this is a hotbed of anti-semitism in Montreal.
But candy-sharing is normal this time of the year, there are Halloween surplus.

[Sheilbh]

Unless it's their friend Russia that is imperializing.

Yeah. Their take on empire is that we're in a US dominated imperialist system. If you're opposed to the US and US interests then you're anti-imperialist and deserve support.

Some people on the left know about and avoid them (there are, believe it or not, other even more problematic issues with them). But if you just turn up to an anti-austerity/war/racism protest you'll find them around selling their papers and offering people their signs (except BLM, interestingly - I think because it happened too quickly). And most people don't pay quite the level of beady attention to the far left that I do

[viper37]

Shots fired overnight at two jewish schools in Montreal.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/jewish-schools-doors-shot-1.7023759

Followed by the firebombing of a synagogue and racial riots at Concordia U where first, a Pro-Israeli protest was attacked by a pro-Palestinian mob, then the day after a Pro-Palestinian protest was attacked by pro-Israeli mob.

Bibi is happy.  Jews worldwide don't feel secure anymore and are thinking of moving to Israel to displace even more Palestinians.

So it's the Jews' fault they are being chased away? Come on man.

I said, Bibi is happy all of this is happening.