Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Gups]

Pretty clear to see on a low level where a thug beating up a Jewish person for dressing different would differ to one who hates Israel and sees a Jewish person as part of that.

There's absolutely no difference at all. It's disgusting  violent racism in both cases.

[edited on reflection}

[Josquius]

that's pretty glib

Not really. I'm a big believer in seeking root causes and trying to stop problems from even happening rather than continuing the belief that if we just react hard enough problems will somehow stop.

There's absolutely no difference at all. It's disgusting  violent racism in both cases.

[edited on reflection}

A view which ensures it continues to happen.

For instance with anti semitism how many people guilty of it even get that they're actually being racist?

I agree with you entirely that the motive does not matter. 

But what has occurred in this thread is an attempt to ascribe a motive.

I don't think that's right.

That's pretty glib.

Also again I think fundamentally whatever Israel is doing should not have any impact whatosever on the lives of British Jews. I don't think that's difficult.

As I say I don't fully buy the Jews don't count argument but I don't think other forms of bigotry or racism are treated this way. If there were mosques and Muslim schools being closed after a terrorist attack (and Islamophobia has increased too) or because of something Iran did, I don't think we'd be arguing that actually there's an understandable route to that we need to understand. I think we'd simply say it's unacceptable.

And if you've been made aware of the effect and you don't change what you're doing, that's a choice.

That's not true though.
It's pretty common these days to see inter-community outreach programmes and attempts to get kids who might otherwise be prime prey for islamophobes to understand despite what their racist uncle says most Muslims are just regular people and not an issue.

I do think with Jewish people there's a huge amount of ignorance in the UK-it helps that they're largely an invisible super integrated  minority.

I do think core to many refusing to recognise anti semitism is a problem is outside of living near areas with orthodox communities most people don't even know Jews are a thing in the UK.

[Tamas]

A view which ensures it continues to happen.

For instance with anti semitism how many people guilty of it even get that they're actually being racist?

IDK, man. Can you imagine having this discussion about hatred of black people for example? Arguing that we should discover the root cause for it and address it?

[Josquius]

A view which ensures it continues to happen.

For instance with anti semitism how many people guilty of it even get that they're actually being racist?

IDK, man. Can you imagine having this discussion about hatred of black people for example? Arguing that we should discover the root cause for it and address it?

Yes. This is a very valid discussion to have.
I was just thinking about that the other day actually. It is an increasingly common and bizare trend in the UK.

[Tamas]

A view which ensures it continues to happen.

For instance with anti semitism how many people guilty of it even get that they're actually being racist?

IDK, man. Can you imagine having this discussion about hatred of black people for example? Arguing that we should discover the root cause for it and address it?

Yes. This is a very valid discussion to have.
I was just thinking about that the other day actually. It is an increasingly common and bizare trend in the UK.

But I am not sure what you are expecting. Do you think racists/anti-semites have this unexplainable feeling of repulsion/aggression they feel like they don't know where it is coming from? Heck no, ask any, they'll have a root cause system of varying elaborateness (usually but not always starts with "I am not racist but").

[garbon]

Punish and shame the perpetrators. Make it clear their speech and behaviors are unacceptable.

[crazy canuck]

I agree with you entirely that the motive does not matter. 

But what has occurred in this thread is an attempt to ascribe a motive.

I don't think that's right.

Care then to explain all the posts in this thread discussing antisemitism as the reason people are outraged by the actions of Israel?

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/07/royal-mail-loses-360-year-monopoly-on-delivering-parcels-from-post-office-sites

Royal Mail loses 360-year monopoly on delivering parcels from Post Office sites

Customer dissatisfaction with service thought to be reason for expanding remit to Evri and DPD

[Admiral Yi]

I'm not sure why you're playing dumb here.

In hopes that you say something stupid that I can laugh at and feel superior about.

[Tamas]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/07/royal-mail-loses-360-year-monopoly-on-delivering-parcels-from-post-office-sites

Royal Mail loses 360-year monopoly on delivering parcels from Post Office sites

Customer dissatisfaction with service thought to be reason for expanding remit to Evri and DPD

Seriously bloody Hermes getting access to Post Office sites? This is not going to end well.

[Josquius]

L

But I am not sure what you are expecting. Do you think racists/anti-semites have this unexplainable feeling of repulsion/aggression they feel like they don't know where it is coming from? Heck no, ask any, they'll have a root cause system of varying elaborateness (usually but not always starts with "I am not racist but").

I'd be surprised if most grown adult racists when pushed couldn't come up with some excuse.

But what people say is the reason for their behaviour isn't necessarily the actual reasons for their behaviour.

Like a typical one from generic racists is the great replacement nonsense. It obviously isn't the real reason as it isn't true.

But what is it in their life that led them to getting involved with this shit? How could we cut down on the numbers falling into that? What's the usual path that sets someone on the road to extremism?

[Sheilbh]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/07/royal-mail-loses-360-year-monopoly-on-delivering-parcels-from-post-office-sites

Royal Mail loses 360-year monopoly on delivering parcels from Post Office sites

Customer dissatisfaction with service thought to be reason for expanding remit to Evri and DPD

Seriously bloody Hermes getting access to Post Office sites? This is not going to end well.

It does feel very much like the "punishment beatings will continue until morale improves" approach to customer dissatisfaction.

[Josquius]

I'm half asleep and misread this as bloody Hamas getting access to post office sites.

And you know. They would actually do a better job of it. Sure the odds of your parcel exploding would go way up, but at least you'd actually receive it.

[Jacob]

Punish and shame the perpetrators. Make it clear their speech and behaviors are unacceptable.

I prefer a three pronged approach:

1. Protect potential victims and make sure they are safe and unharmed.
2. Punish and shame perpetrators. Make clear their speech and behaviours are unacceptable.
3. Make an effort to understand root causes and design actions to counter them - both to lower the numbers of people being drawn into radical bigotry, and to help pull people out of radical bigotry.

IMO #1 is the highest priority. Typically, I'd rate #2 higher than #3, but they can switch spots depending on context - as long as both are still present and #1 is taken care of.

[garbon]

Punish and shame the perpetrators. Make it clear their speech and behaviors are unacceptable.

I prefer a three pronged approach:

1. Protect potential victims and make sure they are safe and unharmed.
2. Punish and shame perpetrators. Make clear their speech and behaviours are unacceptable.
3. Make an effort to understand root causes and design actions to counter them - both to lower the numbers of people being drawn into radical bigotry, and to help pull people out of radical bigotry.

IMO #1 is the highest priority. Typically, I'd rate #2 higher than #3, but they can switch spots depending on context - as long as both are still present and #1 is taken care of.

I'm not sure I follow the insertion of point 1. I mean that is of course what we all want but if it is already happening, make pariahs out of the perpetrators.

While relevant, I don't really care for point 3. Money and time aren't endless and so allocating budget to the psychology of why people become terrible feels less deserving.