Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

But does the motive matter if the result is Jewish schools being closed for security reasons, visibly Jewish events requiring extra security etc?

And similarly it may not be like for like but there are centuries of anti-semitic discourse in European culture one is secret control - especially since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. So I think we must be alive to how we talk about Jewish control or influence over our states.

I feel like emphasising motive and in effect parking the historical context of a bigotry unless there's a direct link is a standard we just don't apply to other forms of bigotry.

[Admiral Yi]

But does the motive matter if the result is Jewish schools being closed for security reasons, visibly Jewish events requiring extra security etc?

The 600 pound gorilla in the room is whether British anti-Semitism is a British thing (rooted in historical British anti-Semitism) or a Muslim thing or a PC gone mad thing.

[Sheilbh]

The 600 pound gorilla in the room is whether British anti-Semitism is a British thing (rooted in historical British anti-Semitism) or a Muslim thing or a PC gone mad thing.

Well, of course the other side of that is the extent to which Muslim anti-semitism is rooted in historical English anti-semitism - for example, I believe, England is the origin of the blood libel. It's the first place where that is recorded and there are attacks on Jewish communities over it - it is then dispersed across Europe and, later, into the Muslim world. A bit like the very, very long shadow across the world of Russian anti-semitism through the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. 

From what I've read it's not because of specific threats, but a more generalised security risk - from my understanding. So I imagine we're largely talking about young men, quite possibly being egged on by young women (seen at least one report of this experience). I'd guess it is proportionally more Muslim, but I don't think it is solely.

Similarly to the extent there is fear because of the chants like "from the river to the sea" or "there is only one state Palestine 48" again I'd guess marginally more Muslim, but again not particularly.

I think the explicitly pro-Hamas chants or ones calling for jihad are more likely to be basically only Muslims - especially the ones in Arabic for obvious reasons.

[crazy canuck]

But does the motive matter if the result is Jewish schools being closed for security reasons, visibly Jewish events requiring extra security etc?

And similarly it may not be like for like but there are centuries of anti-semitic discourse in European culture one is secret control - especially since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. So I think we must be alive to how we talk about Jewish control or influence over our states.

I feel like emphasising motive and in effect parking the historical context of a bigotry unless there's a direct link is a standard we just don't apply to other forms of bigotry.

I agree with you entirely that the motive does not matter. 

But what has occurred in this thread is an attempt to ascribe a motive. 

[Josquius]

Define does the motive matter.

If you murder someone in cold blood because you want to see what it's like courts will see things a bit differently to if you walk in on them in bed with your wife.

Of course Jewish people as a whole haven't shagged your wife.  But I do think there's a more understandable path to anti semitism of heading down an anti Israel rabbit hole and growing confused vs. Starting with the racist shit baggery from the get go.

As said too. Motive matters a lot when it comes to tackling crime.
Very different approaches will be needed for the idiot who wants to maintain the purity of the white race vs. The one who is super pissed off about Palestine.

[Jacob]

Define does the motive matter.

If you murder someone in cold blood because you want to see what it's like courts will see things a bit differently to if you walk in on them in bed with your wife.

Of course Jewish people as a whole haven't shagged your wife.  But I do think there's a more understandable path to anti semitism of heading down an anti Israel rabbit hole and growing confused vs. Starting with the racist shit baggery from the get go.

As said too. Motive matters a lot when it comes to tackling crime.
Very different approaches will be needed for the idiot who wants to maintain the purity of the white race vs. The one who is super pissed off about Palestine.

Shouldn't the focus be on the folks who are being made to feel unsafe due to anti-semitism, rather than the path by which the person vandalizing Jewish businesses decided it was a good idea to do so?

[Admiral Yi]

Very different approaches will be needed for the idiot who wants to maintain the purity of the white race vs. The one who is super pissed off about Palestine.

This is fascinating.  If the white supremicist kills someone because he's black they should be treated differently than a Palestinian supporter who kills someone because they're Jewish?

[Josquius]

Shouldn't the focus be on the folks who are being made to feel unsafe due to anti-semitism, rather than the path by which the person vandalizing Jewish businesses decided it was a good idea to do so?

The best way to tackle crime is to stop it happening in the first place.

Very different approaches will be needed for the idiot who wants to maintain the purity of the white race vs. The one who is super pissed off about Palestine.

This is fascinating.  If the white supremicist kills someone because he's black they should be treated differently than a Palestinian supporter who kills someone because they're Jewish?

Once they've killed somebody they're probably too far gone. But in theory still yes. There'll be very different motivations behind their hate and it will take different arguments to deprogram these.

[Barrister]

Define does the motive matter.

If you murder someone in cold blood because you want to see what it's like courts will see things a bit differently to if you walk in on them in bed with your wife.

So just to go down this side-angle.

In a criminal trial, on the one hand motive doesn't matter at all.  The prosecution does not need to prove motive.  The prosecution doesn't need to present evidence about why you just murdered your wife.

When it comes time to sentence however, motive can be important.  It becomes a factor to consider on sentencing.  Yes, something done during a period of high emotion might be a little bit differently sentenced than one done calmly (although murder is a bad example here - it's a life sentence either way).

So when it comes to anti-semitism, yes motive matters if you want to determine the moral blameworthiness of the anti-semite.

But anti-semitism is still anti-semitism, no matter the motive.

[Admiral Yi]

Once they've killed somebody they're probably too far gone. But in theory still yes. There'll be very different motivations behind their hate and it will take different arguments to deprogram these.

I would love to hear what these different motivations are.

[Josquius]

Once they've killed somebody they're probably too far gone. But in theory still yes. There'll be very different motivations behind their hate and it will take different arguments to deprogram these.

I would love to hear what thesfoe different motivations are.

I'm not sure why you're playing dumb here.
There's a myriad of specifics and often some shared goals - both Islamic extremists and the right far right see a race /religious war as key to their goals. But generally pretty clear differences.

One common difference is with your KKK sorts it's about white supremacy. Scaring minorities into staying quiet and accepting the domination of the master race.
With extremists  like the 11-9 attackers meanwhile they usually point to specific western misdeeds they are avenging. Often a lot more based in foreign policy - and with the religious element usually a lot more genuine.

Pretty clear to see on a low level where a thug beating up a Jewish person for dressing different would differ to one who hates Israel and sees a Jewish person as part of that.

[Jacob]

The best way to tackle crime is to stop it happening in the first place.

That's pretty glib.

[Jacob]

Pretty clear to see on a low level where a thug beating up a Jewish person for dressing different would differ to one who hates Israel and sees a Jewish person as part of that.

But why should it matter?

I mean, yeah if you're designing prevention or rehabilitation programs and whatever knowing the motivation of criminals is useful.

But if you're the victim, the motivation doesn't really make much of a difference. You'd just like to not be victimized.

[Sheilbh]

I agree with you entirely that the motive does not matter. 

But what has occurred in this thread is an attempt to ascribe a motive.

I don't think that's right.

That's pretty glib.

Also again I think fundamentally whatever Israel is doing should not have any impact whatosever on the lives of British Jews. I don't think that's difficult.

As I say I don't fully buy the Jews don't count argument but I don't think other forms of bigotry or racism are treated this way. If there were mosques and Muslim schools being closed after a terrorist attack (and Islamophobia has increased too) or because of something Iran did, I don't think we'd be arguing that actually there's an understandable route to that we need to understand. I think we'd simply say it's unacceptable.

And if you've been made aware of the effect and you don't change what you're doing, that's a choice.

[Jacob]

If there were mosques and Muslim schools being closed after a terrorist attack (and Islamophobia has increased too) or because of something Iran did, I don't think we'd be arguing that actually there's an understandable route to that we need to understand. I think we'd simply say it's unacceptable.

100% this.