Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Syt]

He always seems to forget how many grants, subsidies, and government loans he's gotten for his companies.

Yeah.  I'm a pretty pro-free-market guy, but both Tesla and Space X absolutely fucking depend on government subsidies and contracts.  Neither would have gone anywhere without pretty significant government intervention.

You see, it's only bad if the money goes to someone else (worst case: the poor).

[Barrister]

He always seems to forget how many grants, subsidies, and government loans he's gotten for his companies.

Yeah.  I'm a pretty pro-free-market guy, but both Tesla and Space X absolutely fucking depend on government subsidies and contracts.  Neither would have gone anywhere without pretty significant government intervention.

You see, it's only bad if the money goes to someone else (worst case: the poor).

OK, so I have to push back a bit.  Tesla has benefitted from various subsidies given to electric cars.  Those are undoubtedly a good idea as they have helped popularize the use of emissions-free electric cars.

Space X benefitted from a bunch of military contracts, and now NASA contracts.  Those have also been a good idea as it freed the US from relying on Russian engines and rockets.

It's just that Musk should show some fucking humility about his success, and not think of himself as some kind of Ayn Rand character.

[Tonitrus]

Maybe a Howard Hughes character would be better.

[Josquius]

Musk definitely ticks a lot of boxes for being an Ayn Rand character - meaning the horrid old bag herself father than her fictional characters.

Just imagine her around in the age of social media, switch the gender and add a bit of basic business and sales competence.

[The Brain]

Do I make you Randian, baby?

[Sheilbh]

OK, so I have to push back a bit.  Tesla has benefitted from various subsidies given to electric cars.  Those are undoubtedly a good idea as they have helped popularize the use of emissions-free electric cars.

Space X benefitted from a bunch of military contracts, and now NASA contracts.  Those have also been a good idea as it freed the US from relying on Russian engines and rockets.

Although both could be read as him stepping in to fulfill functions the state has stepped out of/chosen to abdicate - particularly with Space X, but arguably even Tesla (especially its charging network).

I wouldn't push it too far but it is one of the slightly pre-modern elements that I think are coming back in our society.

[Barrister]

OK, so I have to push back a bit.  Tesla has benefitted from various subsidies given to electric cars.  Those are undoubtedly a good idea as they have helped popularize the use of emissions-free electric cars.

Space X benefitted from a bunch of military contracts, and now NASA contracts.  Those have also been a good idea as it freed the US from relying on Russian engines and rockets.

Although both could be read as him stepping in to fulfill functions the state has stepped out of/chosen to abdicate - particularly with Space X, but arguably even Tesla (especially its charging network).

I wouldn't push it too far but it is one of the slightly pre-modern elements that I think are coming back in our society.

Space X: this is where we see the weakness of modern government.  The US, through NASA, continues to fund the SLS, nicknamed the Senate Launch System, because it employs so many people in so many different jurisdictions, despite the ridiculous cost of it.  Space X came along and pretty much forced the government to give it contracts since it's an order of magnitude less expensive.

Tesla - while vehicles themselves have gotten subsidies (either directly for the purchase of EVs, or though selling credits to legacy auto manufacturers), I don't believe their charging system has been subsidized - it's just Tesla feeling that the charging system gives them a competitive advantage.

[Jacob]

Gentlemen, Musk has his own thread. Please take your discussion of him to that thread. Just because the bloviating penny-villain says something stupid about Ukraine does not make it an appropriate topic for the Ukraine thread.

[Zoupa]

From an ZSU intelligence office on the ground:

a deadly miscalculation of 2022 was that air defense assets would negate the use of jets for both sides. by now, russia is throwing 1000 guided bombs per month, to great effect. orikhiv, the town on the ukrainian side behind robotyne, will be gone soon.
all those red plane symbols? multiple bombs each. a massive strain on UAF

you will see me post some "negative" content from now on, and i promise you i want nothing but the best for ukraine. things need to change, and this miscalculation needs to be talked about (and other ones)
neither side feels comfortable putting air defense forward, because radars are astonishingly bad at detecting slow fixed wing drones. anything you put forward will get spotted and destroyed by a PGM or - surprise - another drone it can't detect.
this gave jets freedom, and the russians were smart enough to exploit it. ukraine does not have the hardware to even remotely do the same OR stop the russians from doing it. it is just Su-34s flying at altitude along the coast all day, dropping glide bombs with next to no worry.
JDAMSKI massively trumped JDAM-ER. nobody cares if JDAM-ER can pinpoint a hamster, we have to dig out PDFs to inform ourselves about esoteric naval mines to find out just how few wing kits exist while russia is churning out 1000 kits a month.
across the board russia is embracing technology. the days of biblical artillery barrages over popasna are gone. and it's working for them.
the footage from some of their recent deep strikes is alarming. the drones evidently have better optics now, the tornado missiles look suspiciously more capable. and iranian and north korean shells are killing europeans.
i invite you to look at the pristine shiny new iranian grad missiles before you make fun of them. the north korean shells? ukraine would kill for them.

iranian ballistic missiles have the potential to trump ATACMS. because of numbers.
so where will the collective west go? freeze the conflict? the same idiots that miscalculated are now saying russia already lost, and i don't know if i should laugh or cry.
the russians will go for kharkiv and odesa as soon as they have the means to do so in a frozen conflict. they are literally calling it holy ground, fucking listen to them. you are saying they already lost because you want convenience. there is nothing else behind it.
we have already been here before. crimea and 2 oblasts in 2014. 2 more in 2022. they will just wait and take another couple in a few years.

and during all this time they will pump your societies full of division and tear you to shreds from the inside.
they only understand strength, wake the fuck up. NATO will be undermined from the inside and it will work. you don't believe me but tucker will say "why would I care about lithuania?", i promise you.
they need to lose. it is the single most important objective for western democracy since WWII.

TL;DR: it's bad. Russian bombers are flying unimpeded. Ukraine needs Patriot batteries on the front line.

[Zoupa]

from Wiki: The US Army operates a total of 1,106 Patriot launchers. In 2010, 483 were in service.

Ukraine would need 20-25 to negate russki bombers.

[Tamas]

I mean, mobile Sam units have too short a range to stsy fsr enough from the front lines to make it hard to find them by drones?

[grumbler]

He always seems to forget how many grants, subsidies, and government loans he's gotten for his companies.

Yeah.  I'm a pretty pro-free-market guy, but both Tesla and Space X absolutely fucking depend on government subsidies and contracts.  Neither would have gone anywhere without pretty significant government intervention.

You see, it's only bad if the money goes to someone else (worst case: the poor).

OK, so I have to push back a bit.  Tesla has benefitted from various subsidies given to electric cars.  Those are undoubtedly a good idea as they have helped popularize the use of emissions-free electric cars.

Space X benefitted from a bunch of military contracts, and now NASA contracts.  Those have also been a good idea as it freed the US from relying on Russian engines and rockets.

It's just that Musk should show some fucking humility about his success, and not think of himself as some kind of Ayn Rand character.

Tesla has received close to $3.4 billion in direct subsides and loan guarantee value. Subsidies tracker

SpaceX much less.  About $110 million Subsidy Tracker

Musk can hardly whine that subsidies are unfair.

[DGuller]

Yesterday I watched the whole 2.5 hour interview with the Russian officer who convinced 11 of his soldiers to give up and then switched sides.  In that interview, Russia came off as a country whose armed forces have totally been rotted out inside and out, even long before the war.  Now it's even worse, and the Russian army in Ukraine is essentially nothing more than a prison gang. 

To be fair, while this guy was a career officer, he was mobilized against his will several years after getting himself fired from the military, and was recruited almost from the start by Ukrainian intelligence.  Obviously he's not going to be impartial, and will definitely not sign the praises of the Russian military in an interview to a Ukrainian Youtuber, but all the details he mentioned rang very true.

[Syt]

In more lighthearted news:



https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-soldier-russian-tech-support-captured-russian-tank-wouldnt-work-2023-10

[Josquius]

Despite my usual sources turning negative I am seeing some articles continuing to popup speaking of a southern breakthrough

Yesterday I watched the whole 2.5 hour interview with the Russian officer who convinced 11 of his soldiers to give up and then switched sides.  In that interview, Russia came off as a country whose armed forces have totally been rotted out inside and out, even long before the war.  Now it's even worse, and the Russian army in Ukraine is essentially nothing more than a prison gang. 

To be fair, while this guy was a career officer, he was mobilized against his will several years after getting himself fired from the military, and was recruited almost from the start by Ukrainian intelligence.  Obviously he's not going to be impartial, and will definitely not sign the praises of the Russian military in an interview to a Ukrainian Youtuber, but all the details he mentioned rang very true.

From something I've read today apparently they're trying to get a handle of things with a very strict slightest break in discipline; hint of booze on your breath, etc... then you're sent off to Storm Z penal units where you're treat as nothing but meat.