[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

Right wing prairie populism in the Manning vein is a far cry from "want[ing] to take things slowly, matching the common sense of the common voter", it was a radical project (something which you claimed is primarily a left wing thing). The anti-vax convoy - which the current Conservative Party embraces somewhere between tacitly to enthusiastically, is absolutely a manifestation of radical politics.

I feel like you're conflating two separate concepts here.  "Prairie populism" was never a radical project - it was just that portrayed that way by the media.

There's been a certain impulse I've seen grow up on the right that really took form under the more recent Trumpy-inspired right.  It's this whole notion of "well they're going to call us racists/sexists/fascists/whatever anyways, so why not just be racists/sexists/fascists/whatever".  So you had the really pretty milquetoast Preston Manning being labeled as scary, which has in time given space for the anti-vax convoy types who actually are scary.

[Barrister]

But reflect on where most of us were when this place started up.  You would have been laughed off this forum if you made that suggestion back then.  Folks like Jacob and Oex patiently explained the other side of the public policy debate.  And we had some interesting public policy debates back in the day.

But now most of us have recognized how vacuous modern right wing politics have become.  As a side note I am shocked (really) that BB of all people would take the position that something called common sense is partly a substantive policy position.

We live in a world in what was considered the fringe of the right wing has become its centre.  And that readily explains the shift of how right wing politics are recieved here.

I am not sure that will soon change when people like BB, who could be calling bullshit within their own party, simply go on the attack and support the party line.

CC, I feel like you've been using versions of this "disappointed dad" line for a few years now with me - that you're not mad, just disappointed, in my politics.   I think you just need to realize I disagree with you on many things.  I try to be respectful of your politics, but perhaps you should try being respectful of mine.

Is there vacuousness on the right?  Of course there is!  But it also exists on the left as well.  Think about "defund the police", calling things "late stage capitalism", and yes, identity-politics "wokeness".  All of which the left spend ample time discussing, all of which has no really meaningful policy suggestions behind them.

I will call out my own side when I see it, and I think I have a fair track record of doing so.  But I think a Conservative government would be easily preferable to the existing Liberal government, and I'm not going to be shy about saying so.

[crazy canuck]

But reflect on where most of us were when this place started up.  You would have been laughed off this forum if you made that suggestion back then.  Folks like Jacob and Oex patiently explained the other side of the public policy debate.  And we had some interesting public policy debates back in the day.

But now most of us have recognized how vacuous modern right wing politics have become.  As a side note I am shocked (really) that BB of all people would take the position that something called common sense is partly a substantive policy position.

We live in a world in what was considered the fringe of the right wing has become its centre.  And that readily explains the shift of how right wing politics are recieved here.

I am not sure that will soon change when people like BB, who could be calling bullshit within their own party, simply go on the attack and support the party line.

CC, I feel like you've been using versions of this "disappointed dad" line for a few years now with me - that you're not mad, just disappointed, in my politics.   I think you just need to realize I disagree with you on many things.  I try to be respectful of your politics, but perhaps you should try being respectful of mine.

Is there vacuousness on the right?  Of course there is!  But it also exists on the left as well.  Think about "defund the police", calling things "late stage capitalism", and yes, identity-politics "wokeness".  All of which the left spend ample time discussing, all of which has no really meaningful policy suggestions behind them.

I will call out my own side when I see it, and I think I have a fair track record of doing so.  But I think a Conservative government would be easily preferable to the existing Liberal government, and I'm not going to be shy about saying so.

Well, yes.  I am disappointed.

And now I am disappointed that you have somehow identified me as a left winger who unthinkingly defends the left.  You need only read a couple of pages back to see I have made the same comments about the Liberals.

I have commented before that you have huge blinders on.  And they have become bigger as the Conservatives lurch more and more to the extreme right. 

Josephus had it right when he said we need a new influx of politicians.  I am not sure how any thoughtful person could defend the ones we currently have.

[Grey Fox]

We do. I like the BQ leader but I won't vote for them.

No, not him, nor anyone like him.

Someone like Paul St-Pierre Plamondon though...

  of course you like the pro bono fascist.

[Barrister]

Well, yes.  I am disappointed.

And now I am disappointed that you have somehow identified me as a left winger who unthinkingly defends the left.  You need only read a couple of pages back to see I have made the same comments about the Liberals.

I have commented before that you have huge blinders on.  And they have become bigger as the Conservatives lurch more and more to the extreme right. 

Josephus had it right when he said we need a new influx of politicians.  I am not sure how any thoughtful person could defend the ones we currently have.

See!

Just to be clear, I never said you "unthinkingly defend the left".  You are certainly capable of criticizing "your side" and I've seen you do it.  But you absolutely are on the left side of the political spectrum.

And since time immemorial people have been disappointed in our politicians.  It's always easy to imagine some perfect politician who would match your political preferences perfectly.

But you vote for the politicians you have, not the ones you wish you had.  And of the ones we have I'd take Pierre over Justin or Jagmeet any day.

[Zoupa]

But you vote for the politicians you have, not the ones you wish you had.  And of the ones we have I'd take Pierre over Justin or Jagmeet any day.

Why?

[crazy canuck]

Well, yes.  I am disappointed.

And now I am disappointed that you have somehow identified me as a left winger who unthinkingly defends the left.  You need only read a couple of pages back to see I have made the same comments about the Liberals.

I have commented before that you have huge blinders on.  And they have become bigger as the Conservatives lurch more and more to the extreme right. 

Josephus had it right when he said we need a new influx of politicians.  I am not sure how any thoughtful person could defend the ones we currently have.

See!

Just to be clear, I never said you "unthinkingly defend the left".  You are certainly capable of criticizing "your side" and I've seen you do it.  But you absolutely are on the left side of the political spectrum.

And since time immemorial people have been disappointed in our politicians.  It's always easy to imagine some perfect politician who would match your political preferences perfectly.

But you vote for the politicians you have, not the ones you wish you had.  And of the ones we have I'd take Pierre over Justin or Jagmeet any day.

Yes, I do see 

[crazy canuck]

1) but the Conservatives don't seem to have any ideas on the topic other than "it's Trudeau's fault!"


2) To be fair, if the Conservatives come out with some genuinely good ideas there may enough time for the Liberals to nick them so maybe that's why they're sticking to their usual empty personality based attacks.

1) It is usually enough to win an election

2) It is how the Liberals win their election.

Maybe, but I am not so sure.  For example the Conservative policy on climate change is that they will remove the carbon tax because that just makes common sense.  But they have been asked repeatedly what they will do instead to address climate change.  Their response is essentially they will do the common sense thing, whatever that means.

Add to that their willingness to mimic the social conservative battles being fought in the US and I am not sure they are going to appeal voters in the GTA (where this election will most likely be decided.)

But they might get wise.  They might do what Harper did.  He realized he could not win elections without keeping Reformers and particularly the social conservatives under wraps.  He did a good job of that.  But I am not sure PP has the ability to do that or even sees the need to do it.  Harper could do it for the same reason only Nixon could have gone to China.

Harper had been a firebrand Reformer.  But he matured in his political thinking which was necessary for him to merge the PCP with Reform (or whatever they were calling themselves at that point).  I am still waiting for any current political leader to show that kind of maturity.  We seem to be stuck with political leaders who have not grown beyond their college campus political clubs.  And with Trudeau and PP, that is most painfully true. 

[Barrister]

Maybe, but I am not so sure.  For example the Conservative policy on climate change is that they will remove the carbon tax because that just makes common sense.  But they have been asked repeatedly what they will do instead to address climate change.  Their response is essentially they will do the common sense thing, whatever that means.

Add to that their willingness to mimic the social conservative battles being fought in the US and I am not sure they are going to appeal voters in the GTA (where this election will most likely be decided.)

But they might get wise.  They might do what Harper did.  He realized he could not win elections without keeping Reformers and particularly the social conservatives under wraps.  He did a good job of that.  But I am not sure PP has the ability to do that or even sees the need to do it.  Harper could do it for the same reason only Nixon could have gone to China.

Harper had been a firebrand Reformer.  But he matured in his political thinking which was necessary for him to merge the PCP with Reform (or whatever they were calling themselves at that point).  I am still waiting for any current political leader to show that kind of maturity.  We seem to be stuck with political leaders who have not grown beyond their college campus political clubs.  And with Trudeau and PP, that is most painfully true. 

So way back in the early 90s I found my first political love in the Reform Party.  At the time we only had 1 MP (the great Deborah Grey), but it was a party on the move.  I not only joined the party, but went to meetings, and was elected to the board of my constituency association.  This was hugely exhilarating as a teenager in high school - this group of mostly older people listened to me and took me very seriously.  The Party held a national convention in Winnipeg in 1992 - and guess who was on the Board to help organize that convention - yours truly.  I got to meet Preston.

Because it was conceived of as a populist party it had a very open policy.  One of the party's biggest selling tools was the "Blue Book" which contained all of the party's policies.  And there was an open process of how to add policies - policies would get introduced in the local constituency, then if approved there get moved up and voted on at a national convention.

So all of this is a lead up to - I was inspired, and in the lead up to a national convention, I introduced a policy at the local constituency.  It was a policy for... pollution pricing.  It wasn't specific to CO2 but certainly contemplated it.  This was the only policy I ever presented in this way.

Anyways - when I introduced this policy to the combined membership of the Reform Party Winnipeg South constituency association - they just didn't get it.  It's entirely plausible that teen-aged me didn't explain it very well.  It was voted down, and never made it any further.

So a tiny part of me wonders if I could have convinced Winnipeg South of the value of pollution pricing, and then in turn the national Reform Party had adopted it as a policy, maybe the future of Canadian Conservative environmental policy would have been different.  But probably not.


All of which is a long way of saying I think CO2 pricing is an excellent, pro-free-market way of tackling climate change, and I have for 30 years.  The climate-change policies the Conservatives do produce tend to be far more beauraucratic and intrusive just to avoid having a carbon tax.

But am I going to give Trudeau a pass because I think he got one thing right, and many other things wrong? 

Fuck no.

[viper37]

of course you like the pro bono fascist.

It's probably the leftmost politician I've ever liked.
He certainly is a nationalist, but he's got nothing of a fascist.  You should revise your definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(insult)

[Grey Fox]

Should I? He won a price in a pro bono category so he knows a thing or 2 about that. He's also expressed opinions that almost everything new is an assault on our cultural distinction.

[crazy canuck]

Maybe, but I am not so sure.  For example the Conservative policy on climate change is that they will remove the carbon tax because that just makes common sense.  But they have been asked repeatedly what they will do instead to address climate change.  Their response is essentially they will do the common sense thing, whatever that means.

Add to that their willingness to mimic the social conservative battles being fought in the US and I am not sure they are going to appeal voters in the GTA (where this election will most likely be decided.)

But they might get wise.  They might do what Harper did.  He realized he could not win elections without keeping Reformers and particularly the social conservatives under wraps.  He did a good job of that.  But I am not sure PP has the ability to do that or even sees the need to do it.  Harper could do it for the same reason only Nixon could have gone to China.

Harper had been a firebrand Reformer.  But he matured in his political thinking which was necessary for him to merge the PCP with Reform (or whatever they were calling themselves at that point).  I am still waiting for any current political leader to show that kind of maturity.  We seem to be stuck with political leaders who have not grown beyond their college campus political clubs.  And with Trudeau and PP, that is most painfully true. 

So way back in the early 90s I found my first political love in the Reform Party.  At the time we only had 1 MP (the great Deborah Grey), but it was a party on the move.  I not only joined the party, but went to meetings, and was elected to the board of my constituency association.  This was hugely exhilarating as a teenager in high school - this group of mostly older people listened to me and took me very seriously.  The Party held a national convention in Winnipeg in 1992 - and guess who was on the Board to help organize that convention - yours truly.  I got to meet Preston.

Because it was conceived of as a populist party it had a very open policy.  One of the party's biggest selling tools was the "Blue Book" which contained all of the party's policies.  And there was an open process of how to add policies - policies would get introduced in the local constituency, then if approved there get moved up and voted on at a national convention.

So all of this is a lead up to - I was inspired, and in the lead up to a national convention, I introduced a policy at the local constituency.  It was a policy for... pollution pricing.  It wasn't specific to CO2 but certainly contemplated it.  This was the only policy I ever presented in this way.

Anyways - when I introduced this policy to the combined membership of the Reform Party Winnipeg South constituency association - they just didn't get it.  It's entirely plausible that teen-aged me didn't explain it very well.  It was voted down, and never made it any further.

So a tiny part of me wonders if I could have convinced Winnipeg South of the value of pollution pricing, and then in turn the national Reform Party had adopted it as a policy, maybe the future of Canadian Conservative environmental policy would have been different.  But probably not.


All of which is a long way of saying I think CO2 pricing is an excellent, pro-free-market way of tackling climate change, and I have for 30 years.  The climate-change policies the Conservatives do produce tend to be far more beauraucratic and intrusive just to avoid having a carbon tax.

But am I going to give Trudeau a pass because I think he got one thing right, and many other things wrong? 

Fuck no.

Why do you give PP a pass on his support of the trucker convoy.

[Barrister]

Why do you give PP a pass on his support of the trucker convoy.

I pour my heart out about carbon taxes and you just ignore it.

But the answer is "because of Max Bernier".

There is a segment of the population that buys into the anti-vax, pro-trucker-convoy sentiment.  And I want those people voting for the Conservatives, not the PPC.  If Polievre tells those people to fuck off, that's where they're going to go.

So I'll put up with Polievre saying nice things about the trucker convoy.

[viper37]

Should I? He won a price in a pro bono category so he knows a thing or 2 about that. He's also expressed opinions that almost everything new is an assault on our cultural distinction.

He is a politician from the Parti Québécois, trying to regain his electorate that migrated to the CAQ because they weren't nationalist enough.  He's got to try something.

Anyhow.  He's still a kid, he'll learn proper manners growing up. 

[Grey Fox]

Bedding with the Nazis makes you a Nazi.

You should want those people to stay with MB and spew their hatred there not infect your party of choice.