The Off Topic Topic

[grumbler]

Love it so much

More Hobsbawmian takes on everything please - God knows we need it in an age of "culture" wars.

And, indeed, we should be looking at the opposite:  supposedly modern things that have disturbing roots.  For instance, "mass media" is a term invented by Joseph Goebbels and used by him in the exact same sense as Faux News presents it today.  The US "Pledge of Allegiance" was invented by an American early fascist as part of a campaign to sell more US flags.

[Sheilbh]

And it is very often the case of diaspora either retaining something, or improving it and re-exporting it.

Edit: Didn't see new post, responding to previous.

[PDH]

The point that traditions arise and become set should not be shocking.  It does seem to be a common belief that a mid-20th century invention that becomes tradition is somehow less authentic than one starting centuries earlier.

[Josquius]

The shocking part is less they arise and become set and more they were artificially created in surprisingly modern times.

One I read about recently was ikebana. It has become set there that you must have flowers at certain precise angles and in certain combinations. It's the proper traditional way... Only it's not. The proper old school Japanese way was to just do something aesthetically pleasing. No rulers necessary.
This was likened to the overall problems with Japan as a whole.

Its also related to the stuff about the cathars I made a thread about not too long ago.

Codification kills acuual organic tradition in order to establish traditions

[PDH]

Codification kills acuual organic tradition in order to establish traditions

There is a whole area of study in Anthropology that studies traditions, rituals, and other societal practices that have both emotional appeal and appeals to past ways.

Codification in no way kills tradition, as by definition they are organic as they are continually practiced by people who believe in them and who have emotional attachment to the tradtion.  It is this part, the emotional/psychological importance of the tradition that makes it organic.  When this is lost, then the tradition is modified, evolved, or allowed to wane.

[grumbler]

The point that traditions arise and become set should not be shocking.  It does seem to be a common belief that a mid-20th century invention that becomes tradition is somehow less authentic than one starting centuries earlier.

I don't think that there is a common belief that a mid-20th century invention that becomes tradition is somehow less authentic than one starting centuries earlier.  Tons of sporting traditions are still deemed authentic though they are less than 100 years old.  Mass candlelight vigils are now traditional lots of places even though they only started a bit more than 20 years ago (in South Korea).

It's when people start defending specific traditions and claim that they cannot be changed because they have been passed down from ancient ancestors or Founding Fathers.  Can't mess with Columbus Day (like allowing gays or American Indians to participate under their own banners) because America has always celebrated it (since 1937) without them.

[PDH]

Oh I have no problem that traditions appeal to the past, these help give legitimacy to them.  My point was that codification doesn't kill a tradition, but you are quite correct that it can ossify them - unsurprisingly, the newer rituals/traditions that arise tend to have more vehement defenders against change as the very nature of being new provides the counter to "we have always done this."

I tend to not think that "real" older traditions are more meaningful, as I somehow think that humans have managed to invent traditions for the past few tens of thousands of years at the very least.

[mongers]

Oh I have no problem that traditions appeal to the past, these help give legitimacy to them.  My point was that codification doesn't kill a tradition, but you are quite correct that it can ossify them - unsurprisingly, the newer rituals/traditions that arise tend to have more vehement defenders against change as the very nature of being new provides the counter to "we have always done this."

I tend to not think that "real" older traditions are more meaningful, as I somehow think that humans have managed to invent traditions for the past few tens of thousands of years at the very least.

Here we have the 'mandatory' Jaron option in polls. Do we have others?

[grumbler]

Here we have the 'mandatory' Jaron option in polls. Do we have others?

Can I be: Ottoman Empire?

Incan Torpedo Boats might be a passe tradition, as might the Giant Ants of Brest-Litovsk.

[Razgovory]

Big protests in Israel.

[Josquius]

Codification kills acuual organic tradition in order to establish traditions

There is a whole area of study in Anthropology that studies traditions, rituals, and other societal practices that have both emotional appeal and appeals to past ways.

Codification in no way kills tradition, as by definition they are organic as they are continually practiced by people who believe in them and who have emotional attachment to the tradtion.  It is this part, the emotional/psychological importance of the tradition that makes it organic.  When this is lost, then the tradition is modified, evolved, or allowed to wane.

It depends what the new official version looks like.
If you live in Rome and your religion codifies along Roman lines then you'll be perfectly happy. The attachment remains even though things are now written down and formalised.

If you live in a far away place that traditionally has quite different practices however and someone from Rome comes in to tell you they're wrong and not part of the proper traditional way of doing things, despite it being the way things have always been done in your area....
In time maybe your grandkids will be brainwashed into accepting the new roman way as the way things have always been. But that won't change the reality of the transition.

Languages are another big one were codification kills off what is truly traditional with all manner of equally valid local varieties becoming lost beneath the one official national language.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. The TUC, tech companies and banks agreed on a general strike.

[The Larch]

Oh I have no problem that traditions appeal to the past, these help give legitimacy to them.  My point was that codification doesn't kill a tradition, but you are quite correct that it can ossify them - unsurprisingly, the newer rituals/traditions that arise tend to have more vehement defenders against change as the very nature of being new provides the counter to "we have always done this."

I tend to not think that "real" older traditions are more meaningful, as I somehow think that humans have managed to invent traditions for the past few tens of thousands of years at the very least.

Here we have the 'mandatory' Jaron option in polls. Do we have others?

The "Who the fuck are you?" welcome, the Thunderdome, TBR sanctity...

[Grey Fox]

Everybody being a YI sockpuppet.

[Duque de Bragança]

A ponderance.
When Americans sing they often sound British. Singing can often mask an accent.
Is this the same in all languages?

No.

I have heard that one about Québécois accent being less pronounced (pun intended) when singing. I am not entirely convinced.