Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Zanza]

The chart above has about 2500 Leo 2 tanks. What happened with the other 1100 that were built according to Wikipedia? 

[Admiral Yi]

Sold into the black market to finance Christian Democrat oppression.

[Legbiter]

The chart above has about 2500 Leo 2 tanks. What happened with the other 1100 that were built according to Wikipedia? 

No idea. 

Seems various European nations will chip in a tank company each or so, giving the Ukrainians a couple of tank battalions. Would be best to just start mass producing them specifically for Ukraine like with artillery ammo and mortars.

[Sheilbh]

The chart above has about 2500 Leo 2 tanks. What happened with the other 1100 that were built according to Wikipedia? 

I'm not sure - the chart doesn't seem to list the Czechs, Slovakians, Indonesians or Qataris. According to Wiki they're all operators as well.

Not sure if that gets us to 1,100 - it seems unlikely though I'd expect Indonesia to have bought a fair few. It may also be a sourcing issue of just how comprehensive the source is. By the looks of it, it's an annual report by IISS on global militaries but I imagine it'll be predominately based on publicly available information which may not be complete?

[Zanza]

So the defence minister, the economy minister, the foreign minister, the Dovial Democrat parliamentary leader all do not rule out allowing Poland to export Leopard 2 tanks, but the chancellor Scholz wants to coordinate it with Joe Biden.

[The Brain]

So the defence minister, the economy minister, the foreign minister, the Dovial Democrat parliamentary leader all do not rule out allowing Poland to export Leopard 2 tanks, but the chancellor Scholz wants to coordinate it with Joe Biden.

You meant Jovial?

[Barrister]

So the defence minister, the economy minister, the foreign minister, the Dovial Democrat parliamentary leader all do not rule out allowing Poland to export Leopard 2 tanks, but the chancellor Scholz wants to coordinate it with Joe Biden.

I read somewhere that when Scholz says "co-ordinate", what he means is he'll only authorize sending Leopard 2 tanks to Germany if the US is also sending M1 Abrams.

Seems cowardly.

[Tamas]

Seems cowardly.

Most excellent summary of post cold war German foreign politics I guess, although perhaps complacent could be a better word.

[Sheilbh]

I read somewhere that when Scholz says "co-ordinate", what he means is he'll only authorize sending Leopard 2 tanks to Germany if the US is also sending M1 Abrams.

I read an article on this. I've made the comment before but I think this description is entirely accurate and has happened at every turn and at every stage of this crisis:

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba told German public broadcaster ARD on Wednesday he was convinced that Germany would sooner or later agree to send Leopards.

"Even if Germany has certain rational arguments for not doing it, Germany will still do it at a later date," Kuleba said. "We have already seen this with the self-propelled howitzers, with the IRIS-T air defense system, and most recently with the Marders and Patriot [air defense] systems."

Kuleba added: "It's always a similar pattern: First they say 'no,' then they fiercely defend their decision, only to say 'yes' in the end. We are still trying to understand why the German government is doing this to itself."

It's really baffling to me - largely because after initially saying "no" there's normally a period, as he says, of German spokespeople defending that decision really strongly. It manages to annoy and alarm many of Germany's allies in Europe so much that they don't get much credit when they eventually u-turn into doing it.

[The Brain]

Maybe a kink?

[Jacob]

It's really baffling to me - largely because after initially saying "no" there's normally a period, as he says, of German spokespeople defending that decision really strongly. It manages to annoy and alarm many of Germany's allies in Europe so much that they don't get much credit when they eventually u-turn into doing it.

I have no special insight, but my guess is that for Scholz this is the best way for him to manage the internal German and internal Social Democrat opposition and Putinversteher crowds. In a better world, he'd stand up and dismiss them as fascist enablers and do the right thing, clearly and decisively. My guess is that he believes he needs to keep those types if not onside, at least buttered up a bit and this is how he does it.

Just a guess, though, based on the limited evidence I have.

[Sheilbh]

I think it could be that and I think if it is, that it's SDP politics that's driving it because his coalition partners seem way out ahead. Alternately it could be that Scholz isn't full Putinversteher but is reluctant and will only move under internal pressure from coalition partners and external pressure from allies.

Regardless I think there is a cost to it in terms of the perception by Germany's European partners - I get the sense Canada, the UK and US are more understanding/sympathetic to Scholz and have only said broadly very positive things as opposed to the at times vocal dissatisfaction from, say, the Poles or Czechs.

[Tonitrus]

And, of course, they are probably very conscious that nothing would bring out the internal Russian "Great Patriotic War" propaganda like some assertive/aggressive German foreign policy.

I think we're already beyond that tipping point myself though.

[crazy canuck]

And, of course, they are probably very conscious that nothing would bring out the internal Russian "Great Patriotic War" propaganda like some assertive/aggressive German foreign policy.

I think we're already beyond that tipping point myself though.

That, and what happens in reality has very little to do with the propaganda Russians see.

[Barrister]

And, of course, they are probably very conscious that nothing would bring out the internal Russian "Great Patriotic War" propaganda like some assertive/aggressive German foreign policy.

I think we're already beyond that tipping point myself though.

That, and what happens in reality has very little to do with the propaganda Russians see.

I keep watching those subtitled Russian propaganda shows with subtitles.  I'm even starting to recognize the hosts, like Vladimir Solovyev.  It's all fairly deranged.

But anyways - Russia has already convinced themselves they are "at war with NATO".  So I'm not sure what is to be feared by including tanks with all the other stuff we have sent.