Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Berkut]

1. Assuming no "Ukrainian" pilots called Sven Borksson, how long would it take to train Ukrainian pilots to operate new fighters?
2. Has training of Ukrainian pilots already started this year hush-hush like?

I would imagine you could get pilots trained pretty quickly - at least to a basic level of competence. Probably 6 months or so, assuming you have somewhere to do it.

I would think getting the infrastructure in place would be the harder part - you can't go off and do that at some "undisclosed" location.

Which infrastructure do you mean? C3 systems?

Fuel, weapons, support, maintenance, all that other stuff.

Basically, identify a airbase somewhere and get it setup to actually service and maintain Western aircraft, and train all the personnel to do so.

[The Brain]

1. Assuming no "Ukrainian" pilots called Sven Borksson, how long would it take to train Ukrainian pilots to operate new fighters?
2. Has training of Ukrainian pilots already started this year hush-hush like?

I would imagine you could get pilots trained pretty quickly - at least to a basic level of competence. Probably 6 months or so, assuming you have somewhere to do it.

I would think getting the infrastructure in place would be the harder part - you can't go off and do that at some "undisclosed" location.

Which infrastructure do you mean? C3 systems?

Fuel, weapons, support, maintenance, all that other stuff.

Basically, identify a airbase somewhere and get it setup to actually service and maintain Western aircraft, and train all the personnel to do so.

My impression is that at least for the Gripen that wouldn't be a major problem. It's designed to be able to operate from road bases and being serviced by conscripts.

[Berkut]

1. Assuming no "Ukrainian" pilots called Sven Borksson, how long would it take to train Ukrainian pilots to operate new fighters?
2. Has training of Ukrainian pilots already started this year hush-hush like?

I would imagine you could get pilots trained pretty quickly - at least to a basic level of competence. Probably 6 months or so, assuming you have somewhere to do it.

I would think getting the infrastructure in place would be the harder part - you can't go off and do that at some "undisclosed" location.

Which infrastructure do you mean? C3 systems?

Fuel, weapons, support, maintenance, all that other stuff.

Basically, identify a airbase somewhere and get it setup to actually service and maintain Western aircraft, and train all the personnel to do so.

My impression is that at least for the Gripen that wouldn't be a major problem. It's designed to be able to operate from road bases and being serviced by conscripts.

I imagine it is designed to be operated from road bases when services by Swedish troops and their road mobile facilities. Does Ukraine have those facilities? It might be serviced by conscripts (I am deeply skeptical of that, btw - at least the implication that it can be serviced by poorly trained conscripts), but those conscripts have to be trained regardless.

None of this is not doable of course. It is all solvable. I just suspect it takes more time then it would take to actually train the pilots, once someone says "Go".

[Legbiter]

My impression is that at least for the Gripen that wouldn't be a major problem. It's designed to be able to operate from road bases and being serviced by conscripts.

Plus conduct standoff strikes and blow away Russian CAS and air patrols....

[celedhring]

IIRC a lot of Ukraine's new gear is already being serviced outside the country. I think that would be the approach if we started sending planes - at least for anything outside first-line servicing.

Training pilots so they are not just sitting ducks seems more of a challenge to me.

[grumbler]

My impression is that at least for the Gripen that wouldn't be a major problem. It's designed to be able to operate from road bases and being serviced by conscripts.

The Gripen is designed to be capable of such operations, but that's not going to be sustainable.  Accident rates are going to be high just based on the fact that wind is going to make it hard to keep to such a narrow landing surface.  And that's for pilots already trained in the aircraft.  Trying to train pilots under such conditions is very dangerous and impractical.

[The Brain]

1. Assuming no "Ukrainian" pilots called Sven Borksson, how long would it take to train Ukrainian pilots to operate new fighters?
2. Has training of Ukrainian pilots already started this year hush-hush like?

I would imagine you could get pilots trained pretty quickly - at least to a basic level of competence. Probably 6 months or so, assuming you have somewhere to do it.

I would think getting the infrastructure in place would be the harder part - you can't go off and do that at some "undisclosed" location.

Which infrastructure do you mean? C3 systems?

Fuel, weapons, support, maintenance, all that other stuff.

Basically, identify a airbase somewhere and get it setup to actually service and maintain Western aircraft, and train all the personnel to do so.

My impression is that at least for the Gripen that wouldn't be a major problem. It's designed to be able to operate from road bases and being serviced by conscripts.

I imagine it is designed to be operated from road bases when services by Swedish troops and their road mobile facilities. Does Ukraine have those facilities? It might be serviced by conscripts (I am deeply skeptical of that, btw - at least the implication that it can be serviced by poorly trained conscripts), but those conscripts have to be trained regardless.

None of this is not doable of course. It is all solvable. I just suspect it takes more time then it would take to actually train the pilots, once someone says "Go".

Service by conscripts was the standard in Sweden for decades. I don't think anyone would consider using poorly trained conscripts. Senior tech specialists can be foreigners at least initially I suspect. Bases have to be set up, but everything that isn't Gripen specific already exists or can be quickly built.

My uninformed guess is that the timescale for all of these things (pilots, service personnel etc) would be roughly equal. What I know even less about is the C3 situation. The Gripen is a NATO fighter, but would it be able/allowed to use NATO C3 systems when fighting for Ukraine? And how able to work with Western fighters are the Ukrainian C3 systems?

[Berkut]

It seems like the upside of providing Ukraine with Western combat aircraft is not balanced by the political cost of doing so.

What is the overriding need? It seems like Ukraine has pretty effectively neutralized the Russian Air Force already....

[The Brain]

My impression is that at least for the Gripen that wouldn't be a major problem. It's designed to be able to operate from road bases and being serviced by conscripts.

The Gripen is designed to be capable of such operations, but that's not going to be sustainable.  Accident rates are going to be high just based on the fact that wind is going to make it hard to keep to such a narrow landing surface.  And that's for pilots already trained in the aircraft.  Trying to train pilots under such conditions is very dangerous and impractical.

You don't use road bases if you have operational normal bases that are not under great threat. I just mentioned it because the Gripen system is designed to be able to live rough. Pilots and others would presumably be trained in Sweden, Sweden has trained foreign Gripen pilots and other personnel in Sweden several times.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

1. Assuming no "Ukrainian" pilots called Sven Borksson, how long would it take to train Ukrainian pilots to operate new fighters?
2. Has training of Ukrainian pilots already started this year hush-hush like?

I would imagine you could get pilots trained pretty quickly - at least to a basic level of competence. Probably 6 months or so, assuming you have somewhere to do it.

I would think getting the infrastructure in place would be the harder part - you can't go off and do that at some "undisclosed" location.

there's been talk for a number of weeks (months even iirc) that there are Ukrainian pilots training on F16s. Not sure if it's true though.

[Berkut]

1. Assuming no "Ukrainian" pilots called Sven Borksson, how long would it take to train Ukrainian pilots to operate new fighters?
2. Has training of Ukrainian pilots already started this year hush-hush like?

I would imagine you could get pilots trained pretty quickly - at least to a basic level of competence. Probably 6 months or so, assuming you have somewhere to do it.

I would think getting the infrastructure in place would be the harder part - you can't go off and do that at some "undisclosed" location.

there's been talk for a number of weeks (months even iirc) that there are Ukrainian pilots training on F16s. Not sure if it's true though.

If that is true, then I would assume parallel to that they would be putting the infrastructure into place as well.

I can't but feel like a squadron of F-16s showing up slinging AMRAAMs and dropping JDAMs is going to be seen as a pretty provocative escalation.

[Zoupa]

It seems like the upside of providing Ukraine with Western combat aircraft is not balanced by the political cost of doing so.

What is the overriding need? It seems like Ukraine has pretty effectively neutralized the Russian Air Force already....

Air support.

Also lol to "we don't want to escalate!!!". What the fuck are they gonna do about it? They're buying cruise missiles from Iran. That's not escalating?

The West is still operating as if the facade of russian bullshit is the real thing. Call their bluff, every single time. They're just gonna be back in 10 years if we don't.

[Jacob]

Kyiv and other urban centres are facing the prospect of having to go through Ukrainian winters with little electricity, heat, and water. In worst case scenarios, that could result in a pretty serious civilian death toll. In my understanding, that is primarily the result of Russian missile / drone / air attacks which could effectively be countered by upgrading Ukrainian airforce and air-defense.

So from my perspective the upside is protection of Ukrainian civilians and pushing Ukraine further towards victory. I don't think there's any escalatory costs (unless we're speaking in American domestic politics, in which case there may be - I don't know). So far it seems that Russia backs down when faced with force and escalates when they see weakness. As such I think giving Ukraine what they ask for as much as possible makes sense.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't understand the hubbub over arms purchases from Iran.

[Jacob]

I don't understand the hubbub over arms purchases from Iran.

What don't you understand?