Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[grumbler]

I think we need to be more precise with defining mobilization.  From what I'm reading, Ukraine doesn't have enough ammo to train its recruits to shoot, so do the mobilized troops with no shooting experience count as part of armed forces?  Maybe they should, you don't need to know how to shoot in order to sit in a trench and hope that the next artillery shell isn't for you, but it's probably not so simple.

so you are saying that Ukraine has vast manpower reserves, which is the argument against their military ceasing to exist in the next year.

[Syt]

Austria's ex-chancellor Kurz was interviewed for Swiss "Blick".

He said that it was right that the West was looking for a negotiated solution before the war, and that if the West had been more resolute in its position it might have accelerated Russia's actions. He says whenever he met Putin, about the first thing he (Putin) talked about was how the West and NATO broke their promises towards Russia.

He repeatedly condemned the Russian attack, though, but pointed out that Austria should remain militarily neutral, i.e. not provide any weapons. He hopes for a negotiated solution, saying that so far "every war was resolved, eventually, through negotiations." 

[Sheilbh]

Plus another interview by Macron on not "humiliating Russia" and France's "essential" role as a mediator. Given the response by the Ukraianian foreign minister, it feels a little like their patience is wearing thin on this:

Dmytro Kuleba
@DmytroKuleba
Ukraine government official
Calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it. Because it is Russia that humiliates itself. We all better focus on how to put Russia in its place. This will bring peace and save lives.

The line on negotiations is a favourite of Corbyn's too - his is always "all wars are ended through negotiations so wouldn't it be nice if we could for once - for once - just skip to that point". Which in his case just seems like a yearning for Ukraine to just lose and be victims that we can send humanitarian aid to or take as refugees, rather than insist on fighting back.

[Jacob]

He repeatedly condemned the Russian attack, though, but pointed out that Austria should remain militarily neutral, i.e. not provide any weapons. He hopes for a negotiated solution, saying that so far "every war was resolved, eventually, through negotiations." 

Indeed. But our preferences are to negotiate the way the Allies negotiated with the Axis, rather than how the Austrians negotiated with the Germans some years prior.

[Josquius]

It seems like the sort of thing that is yes, desirable, probably a good goal in negotiations.
But not something you say like that. It just seems odd. Isnt it kind of humiliating for Russia to have to have other countries saying please think of their feelings?

[Legbiter]

Plus another interview by Macron on not "humiliating Russia" and France's "essential" role as a mediator.

France could of course offer 20% of it's landmass to Putin then. The French, Germans and Austrians sometimes come across as miffed that Ukraine hasn't completely surrendered yet.

[Sheilbh]

I'd disagree on Germany - I think the thinking is right but I think the government's a bit of a mixed bag.

It's a real example of why the leader matters because I've been incredibly impressed by Baerbock and Habeck who I think have been spot on throughout. Scholz, less so.

[Legbiter]

I'd disagree on Germany - I think the thinking is right but I think the government's a bit of a mixed bag.

It's a real example of why the leader matters because I've been incredibly impressed by Baerbock and Habeck who I think have been spot on throughout. Scholz, less so.

The US, UK, the Nordics, and the Eastern Europeans are sending timely military assistance and in some quantities. At least they seem to be doing so. Has Germany even finished sending over those 50 helmets? 

[grumbler]

He repeatedly condemned the Russian attack, though, but pointed out that Austria should remain militarily neutral, i.e. not provide any weapons. He hopes for a negotiated solution, saying that so far "every war was resolved, eventually, through negotiations." 

Indeed. But our preferences are to negotiate the way the Allies negotiated with the Axis, rather than how the Austrians negotiated with the Germans some years prior.

The Allies did not negotiate with the Axis.  They demanded unconditional surrender and got it (though they negotiated with the post-Mussolini, post-Axis Italian government).

[Jacob]

The Allies did not negotiate with the Axis.  They demanded unconditional surrender and got it (though they negotiated with the post-Mussolini, post-Axis Italian government).

That suggests that Kurz was incorrect when he said all wars end through negotiation

[grumbler]

The Allies did not negotiate with the Axis.  They demanded unconditional surrender and got it (though they negotiated with the post-Mussolini, post-Axis Italian government).

That suggests that Kurz was incorrect when he said all wars end through negotiation

Well, the Carthaginians thought that he was correct... which is why there were no Carthaginians after 146 BCE.

[Josquius]

He repeatedly condemned the Russian attack, though, but pointed out that Austria should remain militarily neutral, i.e. not provide any weapons. He hopes for a negotiated solution, saying that so far "every war was resolved, eventually, through negotiations." 

Indeed. But our preferences are to negotiate the way the Allies negotiated with the Axis, rather than how the Austrians negotiated with the Germans some years prior.

The Allies did not negotiate with the Axis.  They demanded unconditional surrender and got it (though they negotiated with the post-Mussolini, post-Axis Italian government).

They did negotiate amongst themselves quite a bit.

[grumbler]

He repeatedly condemned the Russian attack, though, but pointed out that Austria should remain militarily neutral, i.e. not provide any weapons. He hopes for a negotiated solution, saying that so far "every war was resolved, eventually, through negotiations." 

Indeed. But our preferences are to negotiate the way the Allies negotiated with the Axis, rather than how the Austrians negotiated with the Germans some years prior.

The Allies did not negotiate with the Axis.  They demanded unconditional surrender and got it (though they negotiated with the post-Mussolini, post-Axis Italian government).

They did negotiate amongst themselves quite a bit.

Yes, but that nations negotiate among themselves is a mere truism.

[DGuller]

Even if you ignore WW2, I'm sure quite a few wars ended not because of negotiations, but because the winner destroyed the loser as an entity.

[Zanza]

@Sheilbh: Just saw a survey that in the context of the current war, for the first time ever, a majority of Germans is in favor of stationing American nuclear weapons in Germany (52%). The biggest support is among Green voters (64%).