Finland, Sweden + NATO

[DGuller]

It also sounds like Turkey has walked back their objections to Finland and Sweden joining. Not sure if there were concessions involved, whether arms were twisted, or whether the initial objection was primarily a matter of domestic Turkish politics and served its purpose already.

In any case, it seems okay.

Where are you getting this?  I'm getting the opposite on Google News and Twitter:  Erdogan's no is a hard no.

[Sheilbh]

From the Turkish government's translation - this doesn't sound hard, but very transactional:

Republic of Türkiye Directorate of Communications
@Communications
Organisation du gouvernement - Turquie
President @RTErdogan:

"(Sweden and Finland's applications for NATO membership) It is not a matter of discussion as both countries do not take a clear-cut stance against terrorist organizations."
President @RTErdogan:

"(Meeting with the delegations from Finland and Sweden) They are going to come to Türkiye on Monday. Will they come to convince us? If so, take no offense but they should not tire themselves out."
President @RTErdogan:

"First of all, we would not say 'yes' to those seeking to join NATO, a security organization, as they have been imposing sanctions on Türkiye during this process."

List the PKK as terrorists and lift the arms sanctions on Turkey to get him to yes, by the sounds of it.

[Threviel]

Well, the Turks have a point. We should not join an alliance to whose members we refuse to sell weapons, that shit has to stop. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed beforehand.

The PKK are already listed as terrorists.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Alternatively you could 'give' the Turks what they want to get what you want, and then afterwards not give them what they want. Basically take one out of Erdogan's playbook.

[Jacob]

Where are you getting this?  I'm getting the opposite on Google News and Twitter:  Erdogan's no is a hard no.

It was part of my morning news round up... but before Erdogan reiterated. So maybe it's a hard no after all. We'll see.

[Legbiter]

From the Turkish government's translation - this doesn't sound hard, but very transactional:

Late milking yeah. Plus they want some stuff from the Americans.

[grumbler]

Well, the Turks have a point. We should not join an alliance to whose members we refuse to sell weapons, that shit has to stop. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed beforehand.

I don't see a connection between those at all.  You join an alliance because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing it, and you sell arms because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing that.  Those costs and benefits are independent.  You can sell arms to countries you are not allied with, and ally with countries you don't sell arms to. 

[Threviel]

Well, the Turks have a point. We should not join an alliance to whose members we refuse to sell weapons, that shit has to stop. I can't believe this hasn't been discussed beforehand.

I don't see a connection between those at all.  You join an alliance because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing it, and you sell arms because you can see benefits that outweigh the costs of doing that.  Those costs and benefits are independent.  You can sell arms to countries you are not allied with, and ally with countries you don't sell arms to. 

Well, I'll guess we'll have to disagree there, I find it bad manners to expect someone to aid you militarily whilst you have them under a weapons embargo.

[grumbler]

Well, I'll guess we'll have to disagree there, I find it bad manners to expect someone to aid you militarily whilst you have them under a weapons embargo.

National interests do not require good manners.  In fact, I think that it would be moronic to act against your own nation's interests because you got your feelings hurt. 

[Razgovory]

It may be moronic, but it is also extremely common.  There's a reason we call being polite "Being diplomatic".

[Threviel]

Well, I'll guess we'll have to disagree there, I find it bad manners to expect someone to aid you militarily whilst you have them under a weapons embargo.

National interests do not require good manners.  In fact, I think that it would be moronic to act against your own nation's interests because you got your feelings hurt. 

National interests do not require good manners, but diplomacy does. It's bad optics. We are exporting weapons to all kinds of unsavoury states in the Gulf, but not to Turkey and that might look like we are taking sides with the kurds. Which is reasonable due to historical shenanigans where we sided with the kurds in the 80's.

Now, if Erdogan wants a conflict then he can easily manufacture one and be able to actually point to reasonable causes. If a competent Swedish foreign service had brought this up beforehand the reasonable part could have been removed and Erdogan would have had a bigger hurdle to jump over before fucking us over.

Edit: Sweden should have quietly dropped any embargoes on nay Nato country claiming security concerns over Russia thereby disarming Erdogan.

[jimmy olsen]

Where are you getting this?  I'm getting the opposite on Google News and Twitter:  Erdogan's no is a hard no.

It was part of my morning news round up... but before Erdogan reiterated. So maybe it's a hard no after all. We'll see.

They've been flip flopping daily on this for the last week

[Gups]

Also that guy who used to post here.  The one who wanted to fuck a lizardman.

You're going to have to narrow it down a bit.

[Tamas]

Also that guy who used to post here.  The one who wanted to fuck a lizardman.

You're going to have to narrow it down a bit.

Considering its Sweden and Finland, it has to be either Slargos, Hortlund, or that serial-killer-in-the-making Finnish guy in a mask, Oglekvinde or something.

[Josquius]

Yes. Oglekville rings a bell for that.
I imagine he and the confederate weeb are off happily living together.