Finland, Sweden + NATO

[DGuller]

I think "kill them all" is a much more natural reaction than "thou shalt not kill".  It wouldn't surprise me that the more emotional people get about a certain issue, the more likely that sentiment is going to be on their minds. 

Civilization is an exercise of suppressing some of people's innate desires, and democracy is the highest level of civilization we know.  People who are unable to grasp the benefits of democracy are more like to also not grasp the negative policy implications of killing the "bad people".

[Josquius]

Not many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

The Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

Western left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

I can't say I've ever ran into any khmer rouge apologists. That whole time and place in history seems quite sadly a complete unknown all round.
It's notable that the khmer rogue were quite an aberration as Marxist regimes go. It's noteworthy their downfall finally came from picking a fight with the more classically Marxist and famous Vietnam. Add in the whole destruction of cities agriculturalist thing and I'd imagine they're not popular with stalinists.

However I'm sure the khmer rogue themselves even as they were putting babies on stakes didn't see themselves as the baddies and felt what they were doing a necessary evil to get going with their perfect refresh of Cambodia.
Cultists don't know they're cultists.

[Razgovory]

My statement about apologists for the Soviet Union was referring to when the Soviet Union still existed.

[Admiral Yi]

However I'm sure the khmer rogue themselves even as they were putting babies on stakes didn't see themselves as the baddies and felt what they were doing a necessary evil to get going with their perfect refresh of Cambodia.
Cultists don't know they're cultists.

This is the part I disagreed with.  Necessary evil.  Necessary yes, desireable yes, evil not so much.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

They say no to NATO bases though. Is this allowed or will it be a sticking point?

The new NATO members in the east didn't have NATO bases for the longest time.

[Jacob]

Two fun little Twitter threads on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624?t=DC7Siv7dfhYbbABpnjeP4Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525922514173673472?t=hdwZ7Yfzg2qjS8dqfxCxRQ&s=19

... not ideal from a Russian perspective.

[grumbler]

Two fun little Twitter threads on Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624?t=DC7Siv7dfhYbbABpnjeP4Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525922514173673472?t=hdwZ7Yfzg2qjS8dqfxCxRQ&s=19

... not ideal from a Russian perspective.

The stuff about Baltic subs is nonsense.  The Baltic Fleet has one Kilo class submarine for ASW training and zero combat subs.

[Jacob]

The stuff about Baltic subs is nonsense.  The Baltic Fleet has one Kilo class submarine for ASW training and zero combat subs.

Oh.

Well thanks for clearing that up

[HVC]

The second link assumes Sweden and Finland weren't already sharing intel with nato countries. Is that a valid assumption? grumbler?


Edit well I guess it's moot anyway lol

[CountDeMoney]

They say no to NATO bases though. Is this allowed or will it be a sticking point?

Bases aren't important at this stage, those can always be negotiated and discussed later. What is important are commitments to getting interoperability off the ground.

[Razgovory]

Also that guy who used to post here.  The one who wanted to fuck a lizardman.  He'd be an invaluable military asset.

[crazy canuck]

The Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

You're shifting goal-posts here. The question was whether "[t]he Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda" or whether the counterpoint that "[y]es they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that" is.

If you're applying the murderous actions of the Khmer Rouge to understanding the thinking of Western Leftists, then most abandoned any support of the Khmer Rouge once solid evidence of the atrocities emerged.

As for the actions of the Khmer population in supporting and carrying out those atrocities, it is evidence that a totalitarian regime - through propaganda and violence - can enforce enthusiastic participation in atrocity by some proportion of the population, and compliance from a broad section of society. But this is not special property of the left or leftists, but of totalitarianism whether left or right (and of mob rule, whether left or right).

Western left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

If you consider "change society so they don't accumulate a disproportionate share of wealth" to be "owning" (and thus equivalent with "cackling moustache twirling evil", which was the point in contention), then yes. Otherwise no. Also a point of order that corporations are - Mitch Romney notwithstanding - not people, so they don't really belong in this conversation at all.

On the cops thing, the left typically insists on accountability and curbing abuse of power. IMO that is far from "owning" and even further from "cackling moustache twirling evil."

I am afraid it is not just mitt Romney. Unfortunately the United States Supreme Court essentially granted that status when it said a corporation has a freedom of religion. It's nuts of course but that is where the US is right now.

[Jacob]

I'm sure it'll come as a great relief to our Nordic siblings - Denmark, Norway, and Iceland have extended security guarantees, including potential military action, to Sweden and Finland while they wait to join NATO.

[Threviel]

Well, the Nordic countries alone would be enough, so that's nice.

[Jacob]

It also sounds like Turkey has walked back their objections to Finland and Sweden joining. Not sure if there were concessions involved, whether arms were twisted, or whether the initial objection was primarily a matter of domestic Turkish politics and served its purpose already.

In any case, it seems okay.