Finland, Sweden + NATO

[The Brain]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.

I don't follow.

[Threviel]

The fuckers say yes, the Social Democrats go for Nato, we'll join! Tonight we celebrate!

[Josquius]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.

I don't follow.

Not many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

[Threviel]

Lots of people are evil. Abortion in the US, immigration, the war, both the western response and the Russian response, are just a few of the current issues where one side is outright evil and/or bloodthirsty.

The classical response and reaction to democracy is that they had to stop the vicious warmongering that democracy resulted in. Todays democratic
states have limits to the popular will for a reason.

[The Brain]

The Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda.

Yes they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that.

Don't be silly.

I don't follow.

Not many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

If it helps you sleep at night.

[Jacob]

If it helps you sleep at night.

Same to you my friend. Hope you sleep like a baby.

[Josquius]

Lots of people are evil. Abortion in the US, immigration, the war, both the western response and the Russian response, are just a few of the current issues where one side is outright evil and/or bloodthirsty.

The classical response and reaction to democracy is that they had to stop the vicious warmongering that democracy resulted in. Todays democratic
states have limits to the popular will for a reason.

Sure.
But the anti choice side in abortion for instance makes the excuse that it's about dead babies and god doesn't like people messing with his plan and all that sort of thing.
They aren't proposing evil laws specifically to cause bad things to happen. The women dying in back alley abortions is just a side effect they don't see as a priority in the slightest. Not a goal in itself.
And that's a right wing cause where you actually do sometimes to see causing harm to others as a goal in itself (though even there it's less about the harm and more their stupid zero sum world view meaning others suffering is good for them).

]

If it helps you sleep at night.

I've actually known a number of these people and spoken to them. Circles I am in often overlap.
Yours do not.

You should be smarter than swallowing the moustache twirling evil for evils sake simple version.

[Legbiter]

Sweden's ruling party, the Social Democrats, say they back the country joining Nato – this comes a few hours after its neighbour Finland said it planned to apply to join.

Taken from the Beeb.

[Malthus]

Sweden's ruling party, the Social Democrats, say they back the country joining Nato – this comes a few hours after its neighbour Finland said it planned to apply to join.

Taken from the Beeb.

Yup, just read that Sweden has officially said it would apply.

Another coup for Russian diplomacy! /s

[Josquius]

They say no to NATO bases though. Is this allowed or will it be a sticking point?

[Admiral Yi]

Not many people sit around cackling like cartoon villains about how much evil they will sow.
Even the baddest of the bad rarely (want to) realise they're the baddies and will see dark deeds as necessary evils, accidents, actions they were forced into, or exaggerations and lies.
With left wingers especially its rare you run into people who think simply "owning" oppressed groups is a worthy goal in itself.

The Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

Western left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

[Jacob]

The Khmer Rouge, to take one example, did not give the impression of viewing the murder of a third of their population as a necessary evil.

You're shifting goal-posts here. The question was whether "[t]he Western admirers of the Soviet Union didn't believe that the Soviets did all those horrible things.  It was just Capitalist propaganda" or whether the counterpoint that "[y]es they did. Many, many people want oppression and mass murder. It isn't more complicated than that" is.

If you're applying the murderous actions of the Khmer Rouge to understanding the thinking of Western Leftists, then most abandoned any support of the Khmer Rouge once solid evidence of the atrocities emerged.

As for the actions of the Khmer population in supporting and carrying out those atrocities, it is evidence that a totalitarian regime - through propaganda and violence - can enforce enthusiastic participation in atrocity by some proportion of the population, and compliance from a broad section of society. But this is not special property of the left or leftists, but of totalitarianism whether left or right (and of mob rule, whether left or right).

Western left wingers very much give the impression of wanting to own the rich, or faceless corporations, or cops.

If you consider "change society so they don't accumulate a disproportionate share of wealth" to be "owning" (and thus equivalent with "cackling moustache twirling evil", which was the point in contention), then yes. Otherwise no. Also a point of order that corporations are - Mitch Romney notwithstanding - not people, so they don't really belong in this conversation at all.

On the cops thing, the left typically insists on accountability and curbing abuse of power. IMO that is far from "owning" and even further from "cackling moustache twirling evil."

[Threviel]

Well, let's do a vote in Palestine to see if they want to murder all the jews in Israel? Or a vote in Hungary as to whether the Roma should exist? Or if we Swedes should kick out all immigrants?

Lots of evil to go around.

[Eddie Teach]

I think you mean Mitt McConnell. 

[Admiral Yi]

@Jacob: I didn't shift any goal posts.  Squeeze responded to a comment about Stalinist apologists with a non-qualified statement.  He is free to clarify that his statement doesn't apply to the history of actual Communist regimes.

Re the rich, corporations and cops, my point stands.  Along with your watered down points comes a great deal of demonization.  And corporations are not humans, but the people who own them are.  So when lefties demonize corporations are they demonizing a piece of paper in a Delaware office or are they demonizing the shareholders and officers of corporations?