Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[DGuller]

Whether coup story is true or not, ultimately the most important thing is for FSB and military generals to believe that it's true.  Or at least to believe that other generals think that it's true.

[Jacob]

Article from inside Russia, about how people are dealing with the war. Not encouraging, but interesting if you find how people cope a fascinating subject.
 https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/05/03/feeling-around-for-something-human

[DGuller]

It's just fucking depressing.  Psychiatry needs a giant breakthrough, clearly the science of cult-building has advanced far ahead of the science of deprogramming.

[Razgovory]

It's just fucking depressing.  Psychiatry needs a giant breakthrough, clearly the science of cult-building has advanced far ahead of the science of deprogramming.

We'll end up like that in 10 years.

[Jacob]

It's just fucking depressing.  Psychiatry needs a giant breakthrough, clearly the science of cult-building has advanced far ahead of the science of deprogramming.

Actually, I think the science of deprogramming is fairly well understood. What matters is the power and resources being put into the efforts in question.

[DGuller]

It's just fucking depressing.  Psychiatry needs a giant breakthrough, clearly the science of cult-building has advanced far ahead of the science of deprogramming.

Actually, I think the science of deprogramming is fairly well understood. What matters is the power and resources being put into the efforts in question.

By deprogramming, I really meant one that is not forcibly imposed.  We're not going to be sending Trump supporters to Fox-free camps for a month, and however this war ends, we won't be in position to impose anything on the Russian citizens jerking off conflictedly to the reports of Ukrainians being raped and executed.

[Josquius]

Its interesting as you can see a lot of parallels in similarly brain washed people in the west. Exactly the same kind of listing off the propeganda and getting angry when you go off script and ask stuff like how they feel.
They really have been brainwashed. Not just info believing nonsense but into this whole simple us and them, support your side no matter what, lens on the world. Breaking that will be tough as any attempt to break it is clearly the work of them.

[celedhring]

Allegedly Spain has just arrested this dude on the request of the Ukrainian government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy

Going off the wiki page he looks like scum, but not scum that we probably should be arresting? We'll see.

The guy was becoming slightly notorious, he lives in a small rural village and there's been protests in front of his house nearly daily.

[The Larch]

Allegedly Spain has just arrested this dude on the request of the Ukrainian government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy

Going off the wiki page he looks like scum, but not scum that we probably should be arresting? We'll see.

The guy was becoming slightly notorious, he lives in a small rural village and there's been protests in front of his house nearly daily.

Yeah, sounds like quite the blowhard, but I'm not sure if that should be an offence warranting detention and potentially extradition, and I have no idea about the claims of him disseminating pro-Russian disinformation.

I see also that the political party he founded is one of the group that Ukraine banned after the invasion due to potential ties with Russia, which is a topic I think we have not discussed at all and might deserve some consideration. We're all supporting Ukraine in this war, and that should be beyond all doubts, but this kind of political prosecution deserves scrutiny. We don't want to end up enabling authoritarian behaviours by Ukranian authorities because we support them in the war.

[celedhring]

Then again, he's retained the services of Gonzalo Boye (Spain's Saul Goodman) which is a personal red flag of mine that the dude is probably guilty 

Speaking seriously, we'll see what exactly he's been charged with.

Regarding the Pro-Russian parties, IIRC they're just suspended for the duration of martial law. Given the instances of pro-Russian politicians collaborating with the occupation, there's a bit of a case for it. Being invaded is usually not conducive to mantaining high democratic standards, sadly, but hopefully we can help Ukraine along once it survives.

[The Larch]

Then again, he's retained the services of Gonzalo Boye (Spain's Saul Goodman) which is a personal red flag of mine that the dude is probably guilty 

Didn't know that, truly a red flag if there's one. 

Speaking seriously, we'll see what exactly he's been charged with.

Yeah, let's see how it goes. The article I saw mentioned that Spain and Ukraine have a standing agreement of cooperation against organized crime, I wonder if this will be framed through that for a possible extradition.

Regarding the Pro-Russian parties, IIRC they're just suspended for the duration of martial law. Given the instances of pro-Russian politicians collaborating with the occupation, there's a bit of a case for it. Being invaded is usually not conducive to mantaining high democratic standards, sadly, but hopefully we can help Ukraine along once it survives.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, I'm not losing any sleep over this, and wartime is indeed not the best moment for prim and proper governance, but it's something we shouldn't forget and, once peacetime comes back, hopefully soon, there'll be work to be done on this.

[The Larch]

And the guy has been released with charges after testifying to the judge, pending a resolution of the extradition request.

[Malthus]

Article from inside Russia, about how people are dealing with the war. Not encouraging, but interesting if you find how people cope a fascinating subject.
 https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/05/03/feeling-around-for-something-human

The Russian response seems to cry out for a psychological analysis.

The thing that strikes me most is how closely the contradictions believed by Russians tracks the mindset of the abuser in a domestic violence situation, after an abuser beats or kills their victim.

They should love me. They have betrayed me - how dare they leave? I was forced to do it. Doing it show them how wrong they were. It was outsiders who broke us up, they were to blame for me doing it. They are close as family. They are horrible people. Doing it shows how much I care about them. I hate them.

Interestingly, Russia itself largely decriminalized domestic violence in 2017.

Can whole nations be analyzed in a psycho-sexual manner? I have no idea. I'm just struck with the parallel: Russia behaving as if Ukraine was a domestic partner leaving their abuser. Maybe that in part explains why rape is apparently such a factor in Russian atrocities in this conflict - of course rape has always been a big part of war.

[Tamas]

Again, such personal reports are better than polls in autocracies (even if highly anecdotal), but I wouldn't go too far in drawing sweeping conclusions. You have to be pretty stupid to talk ablut anti war or anti Putin feelings if there's any chance of it being traces back to you.

[Malthus]

Again, such personal reports are better than polls in autocracies (even if highly anecdotal), but I wouldn't go too far in drawing sweeping conclusions. You have to be pretty stupid to talk ablut anti war or anti Putin feelings if there's any chance of it being traces back to you.

Enough anecdote has piled up that it has become clear a large percentage of the Russian population supports the war. How large a percentage we cannot know, of course.

But things like family members in Ukraine contacting loved ones in Russia - and not being believed about stuff they have seen with their own eyes - is common enough to be worthy of commentary. It is difficult to believe that they are simply intimidated into saying stuff they don't actually believe. If intimidation is the factor, would they not simply shut the conversation down?