Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

I don't like how Labour continues to pretend Brexit effects don't exist. Surely they could highlight how British farmers are getting violated in their behinds without lubrication with all this - their exports to the EU made exponentially more difficult while EU imports into the UK remaining seamless, without saying the *rexit word.

I think talking about Brexit would be a massive distraction for Labour right now and a lifeline for Johnson. No-one wants to re-open the Brexit rows.

In terms of policy I think there might be some adustments from a Labour government - but I think they'll be relatively minimal (at least during a first term). I think they will probably have an impact on farming but that's because I think the areas Labour will probably prioritise are the ones that will have the biggest impact on making the protocol easier/more politicaly acceptable in Northern Ireland. From what I understand agri-food is probably the biggest.

But generally farmers don't matter very much to the economy, they're not the future of our economy either - which should be the government's priority. I think those areas are probably culture, higher education/research/science and finance/professionals. I think Labour should focus more on implementing - with the Commission - the bit about the UK still being in Horizon. We're a services economy. Services are barely covered by the TCA and I think that should probably be the focus (aside from making the protocol work and building support for it).

More cynically, there's also not very many farmers and they never vote Labour - weirdly I was reading a book about Labour in the early 20th century and one of their big clashes was always on low tariffs/protections for farmers because it was better on cost of living and cheap food for workers. So talking about farmers wouldn't help Labour very much, shouldn't be a priority economically and would probably help the Tories (who the farmers will vote for anyway).

[Tamas]

Fine but it is also ridiculous that a generational-level fuckup is being largely ignored politically while playing out in front of our eyes.

[Zanza]

They were complicit in that fuck-up though. 

[Josquius]

Fine but it is also ridiculous that a generational-level fuckup is being largely ignored politically while playing out in front of our eyes.

Don't interrupt your opponent whilst they're making a mistake.
Getting into power is labour's priority. Once there they can fix brexit as best they can.

[Sheilbh]

They were complicit in that fuck-up though. 

Yes. Totally agree.

Starmer is not the most inspiring man in the world, he's not a political genius and he's been dealt a tough hand because of covid for basically his first 18 months as leader of the opposition. But I think what we're seeing now is how this government handles a minimally function, competent opposition. I'm not convinced Theresa May's governmet would have handled it much better either (although worth noting that in their election campaigns May was more popular than Johnson ever managed).

Labour chose not to do that - they even had a second leadership election over it - between 2015-20 when Brexit happened. Labour decided that was the moment to self-indulgently enjoy the politics of protest not power. For Corbyn and his wing of the party it was a triumph - the goal of the hard left is to control the left in Britain. That's what they care about is getting control of and trying to entrench that control of the Labour Party. For the rest of the party who should be caring about improving people's lives and actual politics, it was or should be a disgrace.

Politics stopped happening between the opposition and the government. Instead it moved to internal fights within the Tory party (which decided policy) and Labour (which didn't).

Getting into power is labour's priority. Once there they can fix brexit as best they can.

Yes. Anything that isn't squarely about cost of living, the economy and the NHS is a distraction right now. Possible exception is law and order which I think the government is really vulnerable on, but Labour's hesitant over - and also obviously just continuously hammering the government on competence and their weakness, but that's a background constant.

I think that should probably be their line until the next election.

Brexit is what future government make of it - we're in the very short term at the minute, for what is going to have long term effects. But no-one wants to talk about Brexit again.

In the same way as Farage immediately saw that the 2004 accession and free movement gave him a way to talk about the EU (which was a minority concern) because he could link it really directly to immigration (which was, at that point a top 3 concern for voters). Anything to do with Brexit (a minority concern) needs to tie really directly to something voters worry about - and not in an abstract way about the general economy, and voters need to accept the link which I don't think they would over cost of living when the entire world is going through something similar.

[crazy canuck]

They were complicit in that fuck-up though. 

Yep, that is the fundamental problem. 

Yes. Anything that isn't squarely about cost of living, the economy and the NHS is a distraction right now.

I think this is universally true

[Sheilbh]

It's very very long so I won't post it - but the New Statesman's long-read on one year of GB News is worth a read
https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2022/04/were-going-to-disrupt-a-year-inside-gb-news

I think this is universally true

Yeah. Especially as there are increasing rumours of Johnson going for a snap election (which would I think be hilarious/disastrous).

Even if that's not true, we're probably 18 to 24 months out from an election and for a party in opposition like Labour they should already be hammering home the campaign themes/issues.

Edit: Incidentally the Tory MP accused of watching porn in the Commons saying he'll await the findings of the inquiry into him to confirm whether that happened or not has very high 1990s vibes
https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1520112852807397378?s=20&t=e3oF5hPqc1efdXIH_fz8UQ

[Josquius]

I went on Facebook for the first time in a while today and see a lot of people attempting to kick off the starmer broke long down rules nonsense again.
Lots of stupid articles like one from the local paper saying the police refuse to investigate it in the headline that requires reading to see its already been opened and shut.
Then Rayner being there is suddenly a huge deal
https://news.sky.com/story/angela-rayner-was-with-sir-keir-starmer-at-lockdown-beers-labour-confirm-12601519

I really hope people prove me wrong and are smarter than to fall for this.

[Sheilbh]

Russian state TV having a two minute rant about Britain
https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1520120085133897728?s=20&t=ZnondkpTJDrl3yezJJVjsg

Nothing makes me feel quite as patriotic as unhinged Kremlin anti-Britishness. Always feels like a sign that in spite of everything else, we're doing something right somewhere

[Tamas]

  nothing special here except that other guy claiming historical ownership of fish and chips. Its bad enough for Brits to have fried fish and potatoes as their national dish, but then to want to claim it as your invention the Brits stole, that's just sad.

[Sheilbh]

He's not wrong.

But it's a weird one to claim because fish and chips comes from Jews fleeing the pogroms. Not something I'd be trying to claim - a minority fleeing our homeland gave this other country some iconic food

Although I'm not sure it's the national dish - I think the fry up, roast and, of course, tikka masala have a bigger claim. You can get decent version of them everywhere in the country. Fish and chips is for the seaside (though I always pity tourists in London paying £20+ for a portion in central London which is, inevitably, a bit shit ).

[Agelastus]

Fish and chips is for the seaside (though I always pity tourists in London paying £20+ for a portion in central London which is, inevitably, a bit shit ).

I live very close to the point furthest from the sea in Britain; the town has two Chippies. The one I patronise (run by a Romanian ex-Gymnast) is very good, as good as most I've had on the coast if not up to the very best standard. The other I am told is as good or better, however childhood memories prevent me from going there.

Forty years ago a Chippy in the neighbouring town was up to coastal standards, so you wouldn't have been accurate then. Fish and Chips is most emphatically not a seaside dish.

Like all takeaway food quality depends on who runs it. I haven't been to the nearest McDonalds for years because it was the worst one in the County; even something as strictly controlled by the franchisor as that can vary.

[Tamas]

He's not wrong.

But it's a weird one to claim because fish and chips comes from Jews fleeing the pogroms. Not something I'd be trying to claim - a minority fleeing our homeland gave this other country some iconic food

Hah, you are clearly unfamiliar with the ways of nationalism short on things to be arrogant about. 

In Hungary it is customary to be proud of the scientific achievements of Hungarians. It is, of course, ignored by the nationalists that pretty much all such achievements were done by Hungarians abroad as they didn't have the means to excel while in Hungary, and that a significant portion of them were Jewish, who had the common sense to leave the country while they could.

In other words, you were allowed to transition from "dirty Jew" to "great Hungarian" if you left and won yourself a Nobel. Unless of course it was a literary Nobel prize won for a novel exposing the horrors your fellow Hungarians put you through during the Holocaust years, because then you most definitely retain "dirty Jew" status.

[Josquius]

Sounds right. You see it from Irish nationalists a lot too- Anglo Irish are evil foreign colonisers even if their families have been in the country centuries.....
Unless they happen to be great writers then they're something for Ireland to be proud of.

[Sheilbh]

It varies in Ireland on how the person themself viewed Ireland and situated themselves. But to be clear they may have been their for centuries but they were foreign colonisers who settled a country, dispossessed the existing population and imposed strict segregation on them. Ireland was the first British experiment in colonialism and it was then refined and replicated (literaly - the plan of Derry was a model) in the Americas.

Some Anglo-Irish primarily focused on the Irish side of their identity. Wolfe Tone, leader of the great (non-sectarian) revolutionary rising of 1798 was Irish, fighting for Irish independence. Sir Roger Casement - executed for trying to run German guns to the Easter rising = Irish. W.B. Yeats - leading Irish nationalist poet and set up what is now the Irish national theatre with fellow Anglo-Irish nationalist Lady Gregory, both were clearly Irish. Oscar Wilde who wrote that he was a strong Irish nationalist was clearly Irish. Similarly the first President of Ireland who was a key figure in the Gaelic revival was Irish.

On the other hand, say, Duke of Wellington was more on the Anglo side of his heritage. He disowned any real link to Ireland and spent his entire life in service to the British crown. Others are more ambiguous and have an identity that is fundamentally Anglo-Irish - Burke and Swift for example. The majority probably fell into that bucket of an ambiguous sense of identity.

I can't think of any writer or anyone else claimed as Irish who did not have ties to Irish nationalism in one way or another.

Like all takeaway food quality depends on who runs it. I haven't been to the nearest McDonalds for years because it was the worst one in the County; even something as strictly controlled by the franchisor as that can vary.

This is fair critique. You can normally find at least one good fish and chip shop everywhere (even central-ish London has one or two that are very good) - it is generally better the nearer the sea you are. But its quality is really variable and there are loads of really crap ones especially the further from the sea you get. But I still think you can get a decent fry-up, roast or curryhouse more or less anywhere in the country and don't necessarily need any local knowledge.