Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

You saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.

The USSR had very favourable demographics back in WW2 so this brutal system was viable back then. With their current demographics it is sheer madness; they should be cherishing their small number of youngsters instead they just waste them. There is a population vacuum developing in the centre of Eurasia; China must be delighted.

[The Brain]

There is no need to dehumanize Russian soldiers.

[celedhring]

I'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

You saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.

The USSR had very favourable demographics back in WW2 so this brutal system was viable back then. With their current demographics it is sheer madness; they should be cherishing their small number of youngsters instead they just waste them. There is a population vacuum developing in the centre of Eurasia; China must be delighted.

You made me check. I wouldn't have thought that Russia had such a bad population pyramid. They have a larger % of children than Europe, but their % of 15-25 is lower.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

You saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.

The USSR had very favourable demographics back in WW2 so this brutal system was viable back then. With their current demographics it is sheer madness; they should be cherishing their small number of youngsters instead they just waste them. There is a population vacuum developing in the centre of Eurasia; China must be delighted.

China is looking at a massive decrease of its own population in the next half century it so. Up to 50% decrease according to some.

[Zanza]

In addition to Crazy Ivan: China's working age population will already start to fall at the end of this decade as their society rapidly grows older.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Good points.

[grumbler]

I thought this was what we were all thinking already.  The Russian military is horrendous.  They call it the "rule of the grandfathers".  The older soldiers beat, rape and sometimes murder younger soldiers.  The Russians train soldiers the same way as people train dogs to fight.  With abuse and cruelty.  The result is mad dog soldiers.

Looked it up, and you are right:  it's a horrendous system, almost designed to destroy Russian military effectiveness.

For those who don't know, second-year conscripts are sardonically referred to as "grandfathers."  They terrorize the first-year conscripts, humiliating them for amusement, robbing them of any personal items and, often, food.  The Russian Military's own prosecutor's office reckons there are 1500 rapes of soldiers by soldiers per year under this system.  The dukhi (first-year recruits) then when they themselves become dedy, feel that they have to get back what they lost; they earned that privilege with their earlier suffering. And so the cycle continues, generally accepted by the officer corps as just "the way things are."

So, half the soldiers in the Russian army hate the other half more than they hate any foreign enemy.

[Sheilbh]

Hadn't spotted this but yesteerday the Russian Embassy to the UK tweeted that more "staged provocations" to accuse Russian troops of "allegedly abusing Ukrainian population" are being done by the "Kiev regime under the guidance of British intelligence services" in the Sumy region.

Which I can only assume means more awful discoveries are about to be revealed in liberated towns in Sumy

[DGuller]

I thought this was what we were all thinking already.  The Russian military is horrendous.  They call it the "rule of the grandfathers".  The older soldiers beat, rape and sometimes murder younger soldiers.  The Russians train soldiers the same way as people train dogs to fight.  With abuse and cruelty.  The result is mad dog soldiers.

Looked it up, and you are right:  it's a horrendous system, almost designed to destroy Russian military effectiveness.

For those who don't know, second-year conscripts are sardonically referred to as "grandfathers."  They terrorize the first-year conscripts, humiliating them for amusement, robbing them of any personal items and, often, food.  The Russian Military's own prosecutor's office reckons there are 1500 rapes of soldiers by soldiers per year under this system.  The dukhi (first-year recruits) then when they themselves become dedy, feel that they have to get back what they lost; they earned that privilege with their earlier suffering. And so the cycle continues, generally accepted by the officer corps as just "the way things are."

So, half the soldiers in the Russian army hate the other half more than they hate any foreign enemy.

A side effect of the system is that officials in voyenkomats (conscription offices) have a pretty cushy job.  Most Russian parents, if they love their children, will go to great lengths to get them out of military service.  Obviously, as in all corrupt organizations, bribes get taxed upward, so a lot of senior people in the military get to share the spoils.  This is why a lot of Russian conscripts come from poor regions: those can only get off if they have a valid medical issue or manage to inflict one on themselves ahead of time.  This is probably also why the army is not rushing to fix the system.

[Sheilbh]

On that Sumy allegation I see that today Lukashenko alleged that Bucha was done by the British - really striking though was he said that the FSB had evidence of who done it, how they arrived, licence plates of their vehicles etc. It seems like another example of Russian (and Belarussian) mimicry/mirroring - because the first thing that comes to mind with that sort of evidence was when the Salisbury attackers were identified. It's a really striking repeat rhetorical trope to constantly try and position everything in terms of previous things done by the West.

[viper37]

There is no need to dehumanize Russian soldiers.

they do a pretty good job of it by themselves.

[Zanza]

The German president Steinmeier, who served as foreign minister for Merkel and chief of staff for Schröder before, wanted to travel to Kyiv, but Zelensky did not want to meet him. He is seen as too close to Russia, which is probably a fair characterisation of his past, although I tend to believe him that he changed his mind.

Ukrainian diplomacy towards Germany is very confrontational. I guess that's their choice, but not sure if it maximises German contributions to the Ukrainian cause.

[Threviel]

Are you guys not reading up? They are called orcs cause they behave like orcs, which includes their discipline and internal behaviour.

The Tolkien orc society is a very apt description of the Russian army.

[Berkut]

Are you guys not reading up? They are called orcs cause they behave like orcs, which includes their discipline and internal behaviour.

The Tolkien orc society is a very apt description of the Russian army.

What will be lost if you don't dehumanize the Russian army by calling them something specifically non-human?

Will we not be able to fight them effectively? Will we be too nice to them? What?

[PDH]

I think a distinction should be made between dehumanizing the enemy and calling out and attacking a system that dehumanizes its own.  The Russian military system aims to create "orcs" as has been detailed here.  Is this to say that the soldiers are no longer human?  No, it says the psychological, social, and physical pressures intentionally put on these soldiers dehumanizes them, makes them into the brutish thugs we have seen in their fights - both past and now.

This is in no way saying they are no longer human, but instead saying they have been programmed and controlled to not act within the norms of other social groups. They can and should be called out for this.  This is also not saying that they should no longer be treated as not human, but rather as culpable parts of a system that engenders this behavior they are responsible and the system is also responsible.

As Threviel said, they are not Tolkien Orcs, but rather people who have are part of a system that creates this very similar behavior.