Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

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Tamas

Sheilbh's ITV article, and the latest reports of rapes and holding women prisoner, plus the alleged chemical attack tonight in Mariupol... Fuck this, they ARE orcs.

Berkut

The Japanese did terrible thing during WW2. Surely as bad or worse then anything the Russians can do.

I still don't think dehumanizing them is a great idea, nor is calling Russians orcs, regardless of whether or not it is a defensible description of some of their actions.

It is an attempt to generalize the actions of some members of the group in order to emotionally tolerate treating them as less then human. 

They are not less then human, they are humans doing terrible things. At least some of them.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Eddie Teach

I just saw a Russian tv show called To the Lake. The writers seemed to have a rather abysmal view on the Russian military as well.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Admiral Yi


DGuller

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2022, 07:44:35 PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiZpUAChHmU

Pretty good footage of Russian stuff blowing up.
Nice.  It's encouraging to see that the first reaction of Russian soldiers to being attacked is to run away from their equipment.  I can't imagine that it's a good military practice, I hope it's a sign of lack of morale and training.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2022, 07:49:44 PMNice.  It's encouraging to see that the first reaction of Russian soldiers to being attacked is to run away from their equipment.  I can't imagine that it's a good military practice, I hope it's a sign of lack of morale and training.

Why do you say that?  All the clips I've seen vehicles are being targeted, not clusters of men on foot.  Why would good training mean to stay in the vehicle?

DGuller

Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 11, 2022, 08:14:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2022, 07:49:44 PMNice.  It's encouraging to see that the first reaction of Russian soldiers to being attacked is to run away from their equipment.  I can't imagine that it's a good military practice, I hope it's a sign of lack of morale and training.

Why do you say that?  All the clips I've seen vehicles are being targeted, not clusters of men on foot.  Why would good training mean to stay in the vehicle?
Who's going to fire back on the people ambushing you?  Sure, your tank is a primary target, but you were given it for a reason.  Also, you're abandoning a functioning weapons system to the enemy that can be used against your side later.  If you do decide that you're in a bad place, for the well-being of your army, you should probably hightail it out of there in your vehicle.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: DGuller on April 11, 2022, 08:20:13 PMWho's going to fire back on the people ambushing you?  Sure, your tank is a primary target, but you were given it for a reason.  Also, you're abandoning a functioning weapons system to the enemy that can be used against your side later.  If you do decide that you're in a bad place, for the well-being of your army, you should probably hightail it out of there in your vehicle.

It's pretty obvious in this particular clip they're being hit by some kind of stand off weapon, either drone or artillery.  I've linked two clips about actual vehicle to vehicle combat (so 20th century!) and in both of those they stayed put and fired back.

DGuller

 :( Well, I still hope that was the wrong thing to do.

OttoVonBismarck

Quote from: Berkut on April 11, 2022, 05:43:04 PMThe Japanese did terrible thing during WW2. Surely as bad or worse then anything the Russians can do.

I still don't think dehumanizing them is a great idea, nor is calling Russians orcs, regardless of whether or not it is a defensible description of some of their actions.

It is an attempt to generalize the actions of some members of the group in order to emotionally tolerate treating them as less then human.

They are not less then human, they are humans doing terrible things. At least some of them.

This post is what "being wrong" looks like FWIW.

grumbler

Quote from: Jacob on April 11, 2022, 03:47:51 PMI'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

You saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Jacob

#7631
Quote from: grumbler on April 11, 2022, 09:21:22 PMYou saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.

Interesting. I've never really read much about the organization of the Japanese military, but that makes a lot of sense.

What a shitty way to organize, and what a shitty way to live.

Razgovory

Quote from: Jacob on April 11, 2022, 03:47:51 PMI'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

I thought this was what we were all thinking already.  The Russian military is horrendous.  They call it the "rule of the grandfathers".  The older soldiers beat, rape and sometimes murder younger soldiers.  The Russians train soldiers the same way as people train dogs to fight.  With abuse and cruelty.  The result is mad dog soldiers.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

Quote from: Jacob on April 11, 2022, 09:39:09 PMInteresting. I've never really read much about the organization of the Japanese military, but that makes a lot of sense.

What a shitty way to organize, and what a shitty way to live.

Indeed.  It is kind of ironic that the Japanese were praised by the IRC in botht he Russo-German War and WW1 for their humane treatment of PoWs.  But the massive expansion of the army and navy in the militaristic 1930s caused a massive shift towards the harshest of disciplinary systems because the leadership felt that the lowered quality of the men made it necessary to lead through fear more than pride.

I was very irritated with Roland Emmerich for dedicating Midway to the Japanese sailors there even though he knew about, and even showed at one point, their war crimes.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Berkut

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on April 11, 2022, 08:52:59 PM
Quote from: Berkut on April 11, 2022, 05:43:04 PMThe Japanese did terrible thing during WW2. Surely as bad or worse then anything the Russians can do.

I still don't think dehumanizing them is a great idea, nor is calling Russians orcs, regardless of whether or not it is a defensible description of some of their actions.

It is an attempt to generalize the actions of some members of the group in order to emotionally tolerate treating them as less then human.

They are not less then human, they are humans doing terrible things. At least some of them.

This post is what "being wrong" looks like FWIW.
I'll take being wrong anytime, thanks.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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