Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Tamas]

Sheilbh's ITV article, and the latest reports of rapes and holding women prisoner, plus the alleged chemical attack tonight in Mariupol... Fuck this, they ARE orcs.

[Berkut]

The Japanese did terrible thing during WW2. Surely as bad or worse then anything the Russians can do.

I still don't think dehumanizing them is a great idea, nor is calling Russians orcs, regardless of whether or not it is a defensible description of some of their actions.

It is an attempt to generalize the actions of some members of the group in order to emotionally tolerate treating them as less then human. 

They are not less then human, they are humans doing terrible things. At least some of them.

[Eddie Teach]

I just saw a Russian tv show called To the Lake. The writers seemed to have a rather abysmal view on the Russian military as well.

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiZpUAChHmU

Pretty good footage of Russian stuff blowing up.

[DGuller]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiZpUAChHmU

Pretty good footage of Russian stuff blowing up.

Nice.  It's encouraging to see that the first reaction of Russian soldiers to being attacked is to run away from their equipment.  I can't imagine that it's a good military practice, I hope it's a sign of lack of morale and training.

[Admiral Yi]

Nice.  It's encouraging to see that the first reaction of Russian soldiers to being attacked is to run away from their equipment.  I can't imagine that it's a good military practice, I hope it's a sign of lack of morale and training.

Why do you say that?  All the clips I've seen vehicles are being targeted, not clusters of men on foot.  Why would good training mean to stay in the vehicle?

[DGuller]

Nice.  It's encouraging to see that the first reaction of Russian soldiers to being attacked is to run away from their equipment.  I can't imagine that it's a good military practice, I hope it's a sign of lack of morale and training.

Why do you say that?  All the clips I've seen vehicles are being targeted, not clusters of men on foot.  Why would good training mean to stay in the vehicle?

Who's going to fire back on the people ambushing you?  Sure, your tank is a primary target, but you were given it for a reason.  Also, you're abandoning a functioning weapons system to the enemy that can be used against your side later.  If you do decide that you're in a bad place, for the well-being of your army, you should probably hightail it out of there in your vehicle.

[Admiral Yi]

Who's going to fire back on the people ambushing you?  Sure, your tank is a primary target, but you were given it for a reason.  Also, you're abandoning a functioning weapons system to the enemy that can be used against your side later.  If you do decide that you're in a bad place, for the well-being of your army, you should probably hightail it out of there in your vehicle.

It's pretty obvious in this particular clip they're being hit by some kind of stand off weapon, either drone or artillery.  I've linked two clips about actual vehicle to vehicle combat (so 20th century!) and in both of those they stayed put and fired back.

[DGuller]

  Well, I still hope that was the wrong thing to do.

[OttoVonBismarck]

The Japanese did terrible thing during WW2. Surely as bad or worse then anything the Russians can do.

I still don't think dehumanizing them is a great idea, nor is calling Russians orcs, regardless of whether or not it is a defensible description of some of their actions.

It is an attempt to generalize the actions of some members of the group in order to emotionally tolerate treating them as less then human.

They are not less then human, they are humans doing terrible things. At least some of them.

This post is what "being wrong" looks like FWIW.

[grumbler]

I'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

You saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.

[Jacob]

You saw the exact same thing with Japanese soldiers and sailors in WW2.  They were trained to believe that superiors brutalize inferiors, and anyone unable to fight them was an inferior.

Interesting. I've never really read much about the organization of the Japanese military, but that makes a lot of sense.

What a shitty way to organize, and what a shitty way to live.

[Razgovory]

I'm more partial to the explanation that the Russian military is built on a principle of brutalization to enforce compliance, and that extraction of wealth and resources are seen as a perk of authority... and that those are the mechanics of Russian political structures as well.

As such, inflicting brutality on the Ukrainian population is a natural expression of the structures of Russian command. The soldiers themeselve are habitually brutalized, and now they're in an enviorenment where they can brutalize in turn (rather than having to wait for promotion), so that's what many of them do. On top of that, there's the whole narrative that Ukrainians need to be "put in their place" and suffer, so there's an additional political justification on top of the built in brutality.

I thought this was what we were all thinking already.  The Russian military is horrendous.  They call it the "rule of the grandfathers".  The older soldiers beat, rape and sometimes murder younger soldiers.  The Russians train soldiers the same way as people train dogs to fight.  With abuse and cruelty.  The result is mad dog soldiers.

[grumbler]

Interesting. I've never really read much about the organization of the Japanese military, but that makes a lot of sense.

What a shitty way to organize, and what a shitty way to live.

Indeed.  It is kind of ironic that the Japanese were praised by the IRC in botht he Russo-German War and WW1 for their humane treatment of PoWs.  But the massive expansion of the army and navy in the militaristic 1930s caused a massive shift towards the harshest of disciplinary systems because the leadership felt that the lowered quality of the men made it necessary to lead through fear more than pride.

I was very irritated with Roland Emmerich for dedicating Midway to the Japanese sailors there even though he knew about, and even showed at one point, their war crimes.

[Berkut]

The Japanese did terrible thing during WW2. Surely as bad or worse then anything the Russians can do.

I still don't think dehumanizing them is a great idea, nor is calling Russians orcs, regardless of whether or not it is a defensible description of some of their actions.

It is an attempt to generalize the actions of some members of the group in order to emotionally tolerate treating them as less then human.

They are not less then human, they are humans doing terrible things. At least some of them.

This post is what "being wrong" looks like FWIW.

I'll take being wrong anytime, thanks.