Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-23 and Invasion

[Tamas]

Again, I don't want to relativise the sins committed by Russian aggressors and I personally certainly have no shortage of zeal when it comes to wanting to curtail Russia and its historic plague on its neighbours. I wish for the Ukrainians to kill as many of the invaders as they can (and we can enable them to) as quickly as possible, and I wish for them and us to condemn Russia to isolation for decades if necessary, until they are ready to join the modern world.

But it's very easy to continue the gypsy example with your comment. You cannot find a single person in Hungary who will tell you they have problems with all the gypsies. They only have a problem, they'll describe, with those who act despicable.

[Josquius]

https://inews.co.uk/news/putin-accused-using-troops-ethnic-minority-backgrounds-as-cannon-fodder-1539841

I've seen this being discussed elsewhere too and it intruiges me. Russia disproportionately using ethnic minority conscripts in Ukraine.
Lots of angles to take on it.
Is it because Russians will be more reluctant to brutalise their brother-people?
Is it to let Ukraine do your ethnic cleansing for you?
Is it just because these people tend to be poorer, less educated, and less able to dodge the draft?

Obviously this is just football fans. But pro-war chants from Red Star Belgrade fans:
https://twitter.com/JasminMuj/status/1512866681269284864?s=20&t=94Xjnmz-iDo9FHDws6pTAA

I think Serbia's the only European country, apart from Belarus, to not sanction Russia. It's crazy that they are technically a candidate country for the EU, while Ukraine isn't. It is difficult to kick out countries in the EU, but I can't see a reason to keep going with Serbia's candidacy given the conduct of their government generally and that they're clearly not aligned on core European values - like not invading your neighbours.

Meh. Candidate is an overrated status really. Look at turkeys eternal candidacy.
I'm all for everyone interested being candidates. If nothing else it serves as encouragement to get their shit together. It's not like a country like modern Hungary would ever be granted membership.
Just need to figure out a way to boot nations for dropping below the standard....

[Josephus]

I don't think the "orc" thing is that big a deal. I have heard it used as a racist slur on gypsies in Hungary.

Oh, so it's OK, then. 

[The Larch]

Dehumanizing enemies is understandable from an emotional perspective, but not good policy. It typically just leads to further atrocities.

Agreed, I'm no fan of it but I can understand it being applied to Russian troops. I'm not that cool with it being applied to Russians as a whole.

[Tamas]

I don't think the "orc" thing is that big a deal. I have heard it used as a racist slur on gypsies in Hungary.

Oh, so it's OK, then. 

Can you just read through the thread before replying, please?

[Josquius]

Dehumanizing enemies is understandable from an emotional perspective, but not good policy. It typically just leads to further atrocities.

Agreed, I'm no fan of it but I can understand it being applied to Russian troops. I'm not that cool with it being applied to Russians as a whole.

That's where I think the reddit moderation is coming from and I agree.
On social media in general there's way too many people keen to follow the well trodden path of dehumanising the enemy nation. An act that will only mean more bloodshed and a less likely decent outcome.

[The Larch]

I think Serbia's the only European country, apart from Belarus, to not sanction Russia. It's crazy that they are technically a candidate country for the EU, while Ukraine isn't. It is difficult to kick out countries in the EU, but I can't see a reason to keep going with Serbia's candidacy given the conduct of their government generally and that they're clearly not aligned on core European values - like not invading your neighbours.

Even in the best of situations Serbia is still a long time away from joining the EU, and it's not happening until they settle things with Kosovo, which could also be a long way away. The Serbian government is smarter than the Hungarian and won't come up dialectic guns blazing, Vucic really knows how to play both sides (EU and Russia) in order to be in good standing with both.

[The Larch]

Lithuania just announced that it will train Ukrainian soldiers in the use of western military equipment.

[KRonn]

This is the sort of idiotic talking point that's going around in GOP circles, I assume. Because it has a veneer of reality while ignoring literally every detail possible about what happened.

This is the sort of idiotic talking point that's going around in GOP circles, I assume. Because it has a veneer of reality while ignoring literally every detail possible about what happened.

In the glass is 1/10 full department, it is a vast improvement on Tucker Carlson's "Putin is not so bad" line.

In the glass is 1/10 full department, it is a vast improvement on Tucker Carlson's "Putin is not so bad" line.

Did he actually say that regarding the Russian invasion? I would doubt it. Because we're seeing people getting slammed if they don't support the most severe actions against Russia, including no fly zones which means a shooting war. And he's been against getting involved like that stuff, and has been getting grief for it.

[KRonn]

Trump wouldn't be supporting Russia vs Ukraine. Trump was supplying Javelins and other nasty equipment to Ukraine when he was in office. I'd bet that he'd would be a lot faster in getting US armaments to Ukraine than it seems things are going now.

The same guy who held back military aid to Ukraine because Zelenksyy didn't manufacture evidence against Hunter Biden? And who widely declared that Russia invading Ukraine was "smart"?

You have more faith in Trump than I do, but I hope you're right. Personally I expect Trump to sell out Ukraine for personal gain. On the upside, Trump may enjoy humiliating Putin if he thinks he can get away with it.

Ukraine was investigating US people for illicit/illegal actions. Romney's son or a top staffer, the Biden family and others. Seems Trump had good reason to be asking about it. Whether he withheld aid over it is another issue. There's a video of VP Biden talking to a group about how he threatened Ukraine's president that the US would withhold billions in aid unless the Ukrainian AG was fired. One of the things that AG was investigating was those US persons in investment scandals with company Burisma, including Hunter Biden. And that whole story, aka Hunter's laptop, known for a couple years but suppressed by "mainstream" media, has gotten so big now that even they have to report it. Probably because they sense indictments are coming down. Hunter Biden seems the main target but I'm thinking eventually others could be indicted who were in the various investment scams. But it could have issues for Joe Biden as well.

[Sheilbh]

Le Figaro reporting on Johnson's visit to Kyiv mentions that French intelligence sources are aware that Delta forces and the SAS are in Ukraine - presumably as part of the link to provide intelligence, but also I imagine other support too.

I've not seen this reported before but it makes sense.

The comments under the articles included some French people wondering the source of British Russophobia and suggesting it was because of the White Russians (who were far more of a thinig in Paris) and hatred of Russia for having a revolution

[Jacob]

Did he actually say that regarding the Russian invasion? I would doubt it. Because we're seeing people getting slammed if they don't support the most severe actions against Russia, including no fly zones which means a shooting war. And he's been against getting involved like that stuff, and has been getting grief for it.

Yes he did. Twice. Back when everyone thought Russia would roll over Ukraine:

Trump Calls Putin's Invasion of Ukraine Smart, Blames Biden for Not Doing Enough
Feb 24, 2022 at 7:38 am ET

Former President Donald Trump called Russian President Vladimir Putin smart and criticized the U.S. response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

"I mean, he's taking over a country for $2 worth of sanctions. I'd say that's pretty smart," Mr. Trump said during a fundraiser at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida on Wednesday night, according to a recording of the event posted online, contending that Mr. Putin wouldn't have invaded if he were still president.

In a telephone interview with Fox News late Wednesday night, as Russia launched its invasion, Mr. Trump called the unfolding events a "very sad thing for the world and the country." He said Mr. Biden hadn't done enough to dissuade Mr. Putin from invading.

"He was going to be satisfied with a piece and now he sees the weakness and the incompetence and the stupidity of this administration," Mr. Trump said on Fox News on Wednesday night.

It is the second time Mr. Trump called Mr. Putin smart in recent days. He made similar comments during a radio interview earlier this week.

"I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius,' " Mr. Trump said during the radio interview "Putin declares a big portion of of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, 'It's independent,' a large section of Ukraine. I said, 'How smart is that?'"

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news/card/trump-calls-putin-s-invasion-of-ukraine-smart-blames-biden-for-not-doing-enough-JicGb9xT5GnCZpQdiBjN

[The Larch]

The comments under the articles included some French people wondering the source of British Russophobia and suggesting it was because of the White Russians (who were far more of a thinig in Paris) and hatred of Russia for having a revolution

Don't read news comments, you only have yourself to blame for that.

[The Larch]

Trump wouldn't be supporting Russia vs Ukraine. Trump was supplying Javelins and other nasty equipment to Ukraine when he was in office. I'd bet that he'd would be a lot faster in getting US armaments to Ukraine than it seems things are going now.

The same guy who held back military aid to Ukraine because Zelenksyy didn't manufacture evidence against Hunter Biden? And who widely declared that Russia invading Ukraine was "smart"?

You have more faith in Trump than I do, but I hope you're right. Personally I expect Trump to sell out Ukraine for personal gain. On the upside, Trump may enjoy humiliating Putin if he thinks he can get away with it.

Ukraine was investigating US people for illicit/illegal actions. Romney's son or a top staffer, the Biden family and others. Seems Trump had good reason to be asking about it. Whether he withheld aid over it is another issue. There's a video of VP Biden talking to a group about how he threatened Ukraine's president that the US would withhold billions in aid unless the Ukrainian AG was fired. One of the things that AG was investigating was those US persons in investment scandals with company Burisma, including Hunter Biden. And that whole story, aka Hunter's laptop, known for a couple years but suppressed by "mainstream" media, has gotten so big now that even they have to report it. Probably because they sense indictments are coming down. Hunter Biden seems the main target but I'm thinking eventually others could be indicted who were in the various investment scams. But it could have issues for Joe Biden as well.

Thanks for the Fox News version of the story.

[Sheilbh]

Don't read news comments, you only have yourself to blame for that.

I know - never go below the line

Although it is somehow reassuring that for at least some Frenchmen Britain as an counter-revolutionary power still explains a lot