[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

...Dollarama Angry Milhouse ...

[Jacob]

Brian Jean won his byelection in Alberta.

Round 2 coming up, Jean vs Kenney.

[crazy canuck]

Dollarama Angry Milhouse

GF wins the thread!

[viper37]

The Conservative slide to Trumpism.

A poll by Leger taken between March 4 and 6 asked the hypothetical question: If you could vote in the next U.S. presidential election, would you vote for President Joe Biden or Mr. Trump? Among people who identified as supporters of the federal Conservative Party of Canada, 56 per cent said Mr. Biden, but an astounding 44 per cent said Mr. Trump.

This, despite Mr. Trump's admiration for dictators, his penchant for lying, his applause for Mr. Putin's foray into Ukraine and his complicity in the Jan. 6, 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol, among other things.

Which brings us to the Conservative party's current leadership race.

It is pretty clear that the party is as divided as ever. It's equally evident where the main combatants intend to fish for votes: Pierre Poilievre is casting his line in waters occupied by the more right-wing elements of the party, in many respects the CPC's base, while former federal Progressive Conservative Party leader Jean Charest and Brampton, Ont., Mayor Patrick Brown intend to look for votes among moderates. (Yes, there are others in the race but unless another big name enters the fray, these are the three we will most likely be talking about until the vote on Sept. 10).

Already, Mr. Poilievre and his campaign team have signalled they have come to play, with hard-hitting ads that attempt to define both Mr. Charest and Mr. Brown as policy flip-floppers who will betray the party grassroots. It's a charge that detractors of Erin O'Toole used effectively to undermine and ultimately end his leadership. It may be a deadly weapon for Mr. Poilievre as well.

Ultimately, it will come down to what type of person party supporters want as their flag-bearer: a centrist conservative such as Mr. Charest or Mr. Brown? Or a slick, take-no-prisoners, loose-with-the-facts populist like Mr. Poilievre, who will move the party to the ideological right?

Make no mistake: Mr. Poilievre is going after those CPC supporters who would pick a Trump ticket over a Biden one. If you're looking for them, many can be found at any of these pop-up "freedom" rallies you see across the country. They were the ones flying Trump flags at the trucker convoy that squatted in the city of Ottawa for three weeks before being forced out. It's why Mr. Poilievre reached out to them to offer his encouragement and support at the time, despite the havoc and hardship they were causing to residents of the capital.

A large percentage of these folks can be found in Alberta and Saskatchewan, two provinces Mr. Poilievre hopes to own come the convention. He likely will. His angry, divisive style of politics sells well on the Prairies, where hatred for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau runs high. Mr. Poilievre is happy to stoke and foment that dissent even if it entails propagating ridiculous conspiracy theories – another page he's ripped out of the Trump playbook.

Mr. Poilievre's latest is spreading spurious claims about the World Economic Forum (which Mr. Trudeau and Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland have attended), characterizing it as a cabal of elites conjuring a world in which the little people own nothing and learn to be happy with it.

"Maybe that's why the [federal] government is inflating home prices," Mr. Poilievre suggests in a campaign video.

This is not only dishonest, it's also dangerous – these tactics are precisely why we see the rage that we do in many parts of the country.

Given the starkly different views that the two main camps in this race represent (Mr. Brown and/or Mr. Charest vs. Mr. Poilievre), it's difficult to say what the CPC will look like once the dust settles. Are the more mainstream, temperate party members going to be okay with someone like Mr. Poilievre, who seems increasingly comfortable resorting to the type of dishonest, coercive methods for which Republicans south of the border have become known?

From Mason's piece in the Globe today

Ah, the Globe.    Gotta love these newspapers writing a hint of truth in a web of lies to make it pass.  Playing to their choir, I guess. 

The poll is heavily skewed by party membership, which is distinct from voter polls.

Anyway, it's not yet dramatic.  Real pro-Trump support is much, much lower, and concentrated in parts of Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I won't deny there's a trumpist movement in Quebec, but the see the Cons as way too much to the left for their tastes, so it's hard to consider them Conservative supporters, even if we share some beliefs.

When Mad Max's party reaches the level of support a communist party like Québec Solidaire can get, I'll be worried.  Then, the Cons will move much further to the right to gain the support of these lunatics.

Until then, just the usual scaremongering from the left.

[viper37]

I think someone making that argument would have to make it in very bad faith, considering everything else I post about my politics. In fact, my politics align quite well with a very critical view of such places as Davos, which the left has denounced since basically forever. A rejection of much of what Poilièvre stands for shouldn't silence criticism for the sort undue proximity of political personel with the über-rich of the world, who buy themselves cheaply some good conscience by inviting a few activists they listen to, and promptly forget in between the hors d'oeuvres. The sort of political access the rich purchase for themselves at Davos is obscene, and should absolutely be denounced.

So, Poilièvre is a leftist mole insice the Conservative Party?   I like that theory.

[viper37]

You have often warned people here about what is happening in the US, but it is also happening here and you should not be so flippant about it.

When you stop reading Canadian newspapers and taking what they write on Faith, it stops being so bad

[viper37]

(e.g. they never involve what seems to me the easiest solution which is trying to re-balance political and economic power especially through unions and organised labour). And very often its bullshit in terms of policy to the extent there is any.

unions are organised labour are hardly vectors of change.  They're simply grabbing power for themselves and their friends, like any kind of cabal would do.  Exhorbitant membership fees imposed on everyone, off the book fees for right to work, illegal financing of left wing political parties, political corruption, association with organized crime, excessive political lobbying to gain tax exemptions for their own investment funds who do business in low tax jurisdiction or on non job-creating investments like real estate, criminal activities like assassination attempts, physical beatings to non compliant individuals, vandalism or private property - even with explosives sometimes, but more often simple fire-, the list is quite long.

Multiple inquiry boards always reveal the same problems, nothing is never really done about it.  But hey, by all means, let's have even more corruption, something will trickle down, eventually.

I don't really see the different between the Confédération des Syndicats Nationaux (CSN), Fédération des travailleurs du Québec (FTQ) and your average criminal organisation.  Except they claim to represent the small people and have even more useful idiots than Vladimir Putin can count on.

[viper37]

He hates who is going there, not what is happening once there.

It's hard to hate a place where nothing ever happens (except protests), but some people do manage it.

I can't remember anything being agreed in Davos ever making it to concrete policies in Canada.  Fight against tax evasion?  The Libs dismantled the highly effective specialized squads.  Fight against global poverty?  charité bien ordonnée commence par soi même, so sure, lots of Liberals got richer.  Fight against climate change? The only party who ever reduced our emissions was the one you all hate.   Seems like BB and I are the only ones who truly believe this is a serious issue!

I haven't followed all attendants politics, but looking at France, UK and US, I don't see much difference with Canada with all things related to Davos.

[crazy canuck]

The Conservative slide to Trumpism.

A poll by Leger taken between March 4 and 6 asked the hypothetical question: If you could vote in the next U.S. presidential election, would you vote for President Joe Biden or Mr. Trump? Among people who identified as supporters of the federal Conservative Party of Canada, 56 per cent said Mr. Biden, but an astounding 44 per cent said Mr. Trump.

This, despite Mr. Trump's admiration for dictators, his penchant for lying, his applause for Mr. Putin's foray into Ukraine and his complicity in the Jan. 6, 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol, among other things.

Which brings us to the Conservative party's current leadership race.

It is pretty clear that the party is as divided as ever. It's equally evident where the main combatants intend to fish for votes: Pierre Poilievre is casting his line in waters occupied by the more right-wing elements of the party, in many respects the CPC's base, while former federal Progressive Conservative Party leader Jean Charest and Brampton, Ont., Mayor Patrick Brown intend to look for votes among moderates. (Yes, there are others in the race but unless another big name enters the fray, these are the three we will most likely be talking about until the vote on Sept. 10).

Already, Mr. Poilievre and his campaign team have signalled they have come to play, with hard-hitting ads that attempt to define both Mr. Charest and Mr. Brown as policy flip-floppers who will betray the party grassroots. It's a charge that detractors of Erin O'Toole used effectively to undermine and ultimately end his leadership. It may be a deadly weapon for Mr. Poilievre as well.

Ultimately, it will come down to what type of person party supporters want as their flag-bearer: a centrist conservative such as Mr. Charest or Mr. Brown? Or a slick, take-no-prisoners, loose-with-the-facts populist like Mr. Poilievre, who will move the party to the ideological right?

Make no mistake: Mr. Poilievre is going after those CPC supporters who would pick a Trump ticket over a Biden one. If you're looking for them, many can be found at any of these pop-up "freedom" rallies you see across the country. They were the ones flying Trump flags at the trucker convoy that squatted in the city of Ottawa for three weeks before being forced out. It's why Mr. Poilievre reached out to them to offer his encouragement and support at the time, despite the havoc and hardship they were causing to residents of the capital.

A large percentage of these folks can be found in Alberta and Saskatchewan, two provinces Mr. Poilievre hopes to own come the convention. He likely will. His angry, divisive style of politics sells well on the Prairies, where hatred for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau runs high. Mr. Poilievre is happy to stoke and foment that dissent even if it entails propagating ridiculous conspiracy theories – another page he's ripped out of the Trump playbook.

Mr. Poilievre's latest is spreading spurious claims about the World Economic Forum (which Mr. Trudeau and Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland have attended), characterizing it as a cabal of elites conjuring a world in which the little people own nothing and learn to be happy with it.

"Maybe that's why the [federal] government is inflating home prices," Mr. Poilievre suggests in a campaign video.

This is not only dishonest, it's also dangerous – these tactics are precisely why we see the rage that we do in many parts of the country.

Given the starkly different views that the two main camps in this race represent (Mr. Brown and/or Mr. Charest vs. Mr. Poilievre), it's difficult to say what the CPC will look like once the dust settles. Are the more mainstream, temperate party members going to be okay with someone like Mr. Poilievre, who seems increasingly comfortable resorting to the type of dishonest, coercive methods for which Republicans south of the border have become known?

From Mason's piece in the Globe today

Ah, the Globe.    Gotta love these newspapers writing a hint of truth in a web of lies to make it pass.  Playing to their choir, I guess. 

The poll is heavily skewed by party membership, which is distinct from voter polls.

Anyway, it's not yet dramatic.  Real pro-Trump support is much, much lower, and concentrated in parts of Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I won't deny there's a trumpist movement in Quebec, but the see the Cons as way too much to the left for their tastes, so it's hard to consider them Conservative supporters, even if we share some beliefs.

When Mad Max's party reaches the level of support a communist party like Québec Solidaire can get, I'll be worried.  Then, the Cons will move much further to the right to gain the support of these lunatics.

Until then, just the usual scaremongering from the left.

If you had actually read it you will have seen it makes the point that the Trumpists are concentrated in Alberta and Saskatchewan. 

I am not sure why you think Trumpist support within party membership is not problematic.  Isn't that THE problem?  If there were no Trumpists within the party we would have no leadership candidates spouting Trumpist filth.

[viper37]

I am not sure why you think Trumpist support within party membership is not problematic.  Isn't that THE problem?  If there were no Trumpists within the party we would have no leadership candidates spouting Trumpist filth.

It is a problem.  Not a HUGE problem.  There are communists in the NDP. Lots of people supporting that party reject democracy when it can not achieve their aims.  Québec Solidaire is even worst.  Yet, they are allowed to roam free.

As long as leftwing populism is tolerated, I will tolerate a smallish amount of right wing populism.  Especially when it's not in my province and they don't get to define national policies by themselves.

So far, the party has always maintained a strict control over these factions, unlike the leftwingers, where they are the dominant strain of their party.

We will see if that changes this fall.

For now, I will remind people here once more that America's problem aren't Canada's problem.  Our political parties is like our country: heavily centralized.  Leadership makes all, especially in Federal parties.  Lunatics are easily discarded when they create too much problem, unlike the US where it's way harder to remove a troublesome candidate from one's party.  The Democrats had a KKK Senator for long, he only repented in his later years, AFAIK, long after the Democrats had voted to end segregation.  In Canada, such a member of Parliament would have been booted out of his party caucus very quickly.

[Grey Fox]

When I vote for QS this fall, I'll think of you Viper.

[crazy canuck]

I am not sure why you think Trumpist support within party membership is not problematic.  Isn't that THE problem?  If there were no Trumpists within the party we would have no leadership candidates spouting Trumpist filth.

It is a problem.  Not a HUGE problem.  There are communists in the NDP. Lots of people supporting that party reject democracy when it can not achieve their aims.  Québec Solidaire is even worst.  Yet, they are allowed to roam free.

As long as leftwing populism is tolerated, I will tolerate a smallish amount of right wing populism.  Especially when it's not in my province and they don't get to define national policies by themselves.

So far, the party has always maintained a strict control over these factions, unlike the leftwingers, where they are the dominant strain of their party.

We will see if that changes this fall.

For now, I will remind people here once more that America's problem aren't Canada's problem.  Our political parties is like our country: heavily centralized.  Leadership makes all, especially in Federal parties.  Lunatics are easily discarded when they create too much problem, unlike the US where it's way harder to remove a troublesome candidate from one's party.  The Democrats had a KKK Senator for long, he only repented in his later years, AFAIK, long after the Democrats had voted to end segregation.  In Canada, such a member of Parliament would have been booted out of his party caucus very quickly.

So your answer to 44% of the Conservatives being Trumpists is "what about"

[viper37]

No.  My answer is: the number is purposefully inflated for political reasons.

[crazy canuck]

No.  My answer is: the number is purposefully inflated for political reasons.

So you have gone full blown right wing conspiracy nutter.  That is unfortunate.

[Zoupa]

I like how Canada is "heavily centralized" and how commies are the majority in "left-wing" canadian political parties lol.