QuoteVolunteering abroad to build schools or dig wells might make people feel good about themselves - but it can be detrimental to those who are supposed to be helped, writes tour company founder Daniela Papi.
I've volunteered all over the world - building homes in Papua New Guinea, doing post-tsunami work in Sri Lanka, helping paint a school in Thailand - and I used to think it was the best way to travel.
In 2005 I even organised my own volunteer trip - a bike ride across Cambodia with five friends. We were going to raise funds to build a school, and teach students we met along the way about the environment and health.
There turned out to be more than one small problem. We didn't really know that much about the environment or health - or Cambodia for that matter.
Much of the money we had raised for other small projects had been wasted, or landed in corrupt hands. And that school we helped to build? Well, when I arrived to see it, I found a half-empty building.
I decided to stay in Cambodia a bit longer to see how we could better use our time and money. That bit longer eventually turned into six years living in Cambodia and that first school building turned into an education NGO (non-governmental organisation).
To raise money for our work, I started a volunteer travel company that led hundreds of volunteers on trips to Cambodia.
At first, our tours looked a lot like that first bike ride, with foreigners coming in to "serve" people in places they knew very little about. I slowly stopped believing in our "voluntourism" offerings and began to see that young people didn't need more fabricated opportunities to "serve" but rather opportunities to learn how to better contribute their time and money in the future.
I feel that the growing practice of sending young people abroad to volunteer is often not only failing the communities they are meant to be serving, but also setting these travellers, and by extension our whole society, up for failure in the long run.
From half-built school to home of an education NGO in Cambodia The school - now housing an NGO - that Daniela Papi helped build in Cambodia
Hundreds of thousands of young people are going abroad to volunteer each year, as part of school requirements, to build their CVs, and as part of gap year trips.
Yet much of this demand is fuelled by the belief that because we come from financially wealthier countries, we have the right, or the obligation, to bestow our benevolence on people. Never mind if we don't speak the language, don't have the skills or experience to qualify for the jobs we're doing, or don't know anything about what life is like "over there".
Viral videos by comedy group Unexpected Items that spoof well-heeled types on gap years - or "yahs", as their drawn-out vowels have it
Features Orlando (actor Matt Lacey) on the phone to his friend Tarquin
Each anecdote about his adventures abroad ends "... then I just chundered everywah"
"I think at this difficult time, the thing they probably need most is to have a Western presence" - Orlando, organising a fundraiser for "Haiti, in Africa"
As a former serial volunteer myself, I'm not in any way trying to criticise the good intentions of these volunteer travellers - I know from my own experience that our desire to help is sincere - but I now also know that good intentions are not enough.
Our lack of critical engagement about international volunteering is creating a double standard.
When someone goes for a work experience or internship placement in a law firm or an accounting company, they don't expect to be leading a case in a courtroom, or managing their own clients - they understand their number one job is to learn (and bring the coffee). Yet when we go abroad, we sometimes forget that we have to learn before we can serve.
It's like we think we are all Clark Kent. At home we slave away and work hard to be useful in our jobs, but then we enter a magical phone booth and - ta-dah - we take off to a far-away country and somehow our Superman suit, or our volunteer T-shirt, gives us all of the power and knowledge we need to save the world.
We're teaching our next generation of leaders that development work is easy, and that their skills are so valuable to the people abroad that it is worth donating money to send them to help.
And we're teaching them that, just because they come from the UK or the US, they are in a position of superiority over the people they are going to "serve".
We must stop volunteering abroad from becoming about us fulfilling our dreams of being heroes. The travellers are not just missing out on learning the lessons that lead to more sustainable changes in themselves and in the world, but they are also often negatively impacting the people they are meant to be "serving".
Orphanage volunteering is one of the most popular volunteer travel offerings in part because it fits with both our desire to be heroes and our desire for fun.
Volunteering to take care of orphans might not sound too bad at first - at least I didn't think so on my initial orphanage visits.
But then I started to realise that my visit repeated over and over and over again can indeed become a problem.
Imagine if an orphanage near your home had a rotating door of volunteers coming to play with these children who have already been deemed vulnerable.
Imagine if, during times when they were meant to be in school, they were performing "orphanage dance shows" day after day to visiting tourists. Imagine if any tourist could come in off the street and take one of the children out for the day with them? You are right in any assumptions you might have about what type of harm that could expose them to.
In Cambodia, orphanage volunteering has become a big business. While the number of orphans has decreased, the number of orphanages has risen with the rise of tourism. Unicef estimates that three out of every four children in Cambodian orphanages actually have one or more living parents.
The most corrupt orphanage managers even have an incentive to keep the children looking poor, because, as I have heard many travellers say, tourists often want to give their time and money to the poorest looking place, as they think that is where it is needed most.
People often say, "doing something is better than doing nothing". But it isn't. Not when that something is often wasteful at best, and at worst causing a lot of harm.
We need to focus on learning first - not just encouraging jumping in. Like the legal intern delivering coffee and learning what it takes to be a good lawyer, their most significant impact in the role is not achieved in a short time, but rather in avoiding being too much of a distraction in the short-term and learning how to have a real impact in the long run.
We can encourage young people to move from serving, to learning how to serve. It's a small change in vocabulary, but it can have a big impact on our futures.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22294205
Read this the other day and was nodding along with it. I really don't like those people with their phoney misplaced altruism, you know, they want to help the poor...but only in a fun way! And only so it makes them look good.
Those projects you hear about with people building schools in Africa always seemed ridiculous. Why do you need a bunch of uneducated young westerners to do that when local builders could do a cheaper and better job? And logically for the cost of getting those kids over there and setting them up you could probally get a lot more schools built for the same money.
I agree
I'm helping the poor but in a miserable way. I built a school but it was destroyed in a monsoon.
The USAID doesn't trust locals to actually follow through on (small scale, rural) development projects and not just pocket the money -- they want a volunteer there hold the purse strings.
Quote
We didn't really know that much about the environment or health - or Cambodia for that matter.
Volunteering abroad isn't stupid. Volunteering stupidly is stupid.
Good luck trying to tell this to starry eyed girls.
Dear lord. The fad among 20-something girls these days is to "volunteer to save Africa" or some shit. I'm all for saving Africa, but playing around with a little African kid ain't gonna necessarily do that, especially if I am a snot-nosed 20-something that knows nothing.
I spent part of my visit home counseling a super liberal stubborn female friend that while it's nice that her boyfriend "also wants to save Africa", the fact that in the big picture he is a ultra-conservative Christian fundamentalist will probably doom the relationship. I told her that "you won't be saving Africa forever", so maybe consider the other parts of your relationship life. :wacko:
Young people are free to continue this voluntourist stuff, just as they are free to go to college and study everything they want. I am fine with choice, as long they understand the costs and reality. :)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/17852_394957295421_6253665_n.jpg)
Quote from: Maladict on May 02, 2013, 03:44:09 AM
Quote
We didn't really know that much about the environment or health - or Cambodia for that matter.
Volunteering abroad isn't stupid. Volunteering stupidly is stupid.
:yes:
A very unwise investment. :(
This is nothing new: 150 years ago, we called them "missionaries".
Still, the more pernicious effect is that cultures of foreign aid may retard long-term development, because you substitute for the failure of the state to provide. Where is the incentive to take governance seriously if idealistic whitey is busy building the facilities out in the periphery that the capital should be taking care of?
So while building lots of new wells and schools, the foreign organisations then become compelled to impose a raft of good governance measures alongside this. And then everyone starts working to game the metrics, while the aid organisation is busy trying to disburse as much as it can lest next year's budget be cut.
Worse is the fact that a lot of aid organisations have a very dim, ideological view of private enterprise, which should in fact be the motor of development in poor countries.
You can probably tell I'm cynical about the effects of aid in the long term.
Quote from: Warspite on May 02, 2013, 07:06:30 AM
This is nothing new: 150 years ago, we called them "missionaries".
Still, the more pernicious effect is that cultures of foreign aid may retard long-term development, because you substitute for the failure of the state to provide.
So while building lots of new wells and schools, the foreign organisations then become compelled to impose a raft of good governance measures alongside this. And then everyone starts working to game the metrics, while the aid organisation is busy trying to disburse as much as it can lest next year's budget be cut.
Worse is the fact that a lot of aid organisations have a very dim, ideological view of private enterprise, which should in fact be the motor of development in poor countries.
You can probably tell I'm cynical about the effects of aid in the long term.
I think the state of modern Africa backs up your argument quite nicely. :)
I don't think we should restrict the access of young african kids to hot 20 year old white chicks.
It's what god intended.
As someone who's worked for several charities, what's been described is one of my top bugbears. Just because charities don't have the core profit motive, doesn't mean they should look at the efficiency of what they do, if anything they more carefully need to look at, and set a unbiased method of measuring outcomes vs inputs.
As Tyr and other have mentioned, the whole, look at me, I'm doing something to save the world/people, and it's entirely incidental that I'm having a good time/holiday at the same time is rather annoying.
Why not just quietly raise some money or better still give a chunk of you own money to a charity and then go on a holiday ?
That's not to say giving in kind, with your own time and skills, isn't a vital part of charity work and helps to build a wider, better society, be it pro bono legal work/free legal advice services or running a scouts group.
QuoteWhy not just quietly raise some money or better still give a chunk of you own money to a charity and then go on a holiday ?
:nod: Or, better yet, spend your money going out of your way to buy African goods. Or go on holiday there. Or give cash to charities that send out real technical experts. One thing that struck me talking to actual Africans working in development is that they don't necessarily want money or young white kids: they want and need expertise.
I think the problem is that charities are very good at helping in immediate crises (though they can too become part of the problem, see: Ethiopia) but for long-term development I'm very doubtful about the impact of aid.
I think you ought to have to volunteer in your local community first, nothing like cleaning out old people's potties to ground you. Which is something I did - with the Girl Guides, not for my first offence :P
The one thing that winds me up more than voluntourism is people who ask for charity sponsorship for something that costs them no time or effort but is something they've always wanted to do. Train six months for a marathon, sure, but sky-dive, nuh-uh.
Quote from: Brazen on May 02, 2013, 08:53:33 AM
I think you ought to have to volunteer in your local community first, nothing like cleaning out old people's potties to ground you. Which is something I did - with the Girl Guides, not for my first offence :P
The one thing that winds me up more than voluntourism is people who ask for charity sponsorship for something that costs them no time or effort but is something they've always wanted to do. Train six months for a marathon, sure, but sky-dive, nuh-uh.
Yeah, what the hell's up with that? Maybe I should ask my friends to sponsor my next trip to a Croatian beach for charity?
My cousin's kids are getting all into this via their church. The older one is a junior in high school and is saving all the money from his part time job to pay for his trip to Guatemala this summer to help build some stuff in a village or something.
I'm sure my kids will be too self-centered and lazy at that age to even think about doing something like that.
Ugh. Church trips.
Half of their own country is falling apart and they want to go nursemaid foreigners. Disgusting.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 02, 2013, 10:21:52 AM
Ugh. Church trips.
Half of their own country is falling apart and they want to go nursemaid foreigners. Disgusting.
In fairness both kids have already done a lot of volunteer work down in Kentucky & Tennessee. Our poor here have it a lot better than the shit-poor in the third world.
But I generally agree with you guys. What Dickens said long ago about "telescopic philanthropy" still applies.
Quote from: derspiess on May 02, 2013, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 02, 2013, 10:21:52 AM
Ugh. Church trips.
Half of their own country is falling apart and they want to go nursemaid foreigners. Disgusting.
In fairness both kids have already done a lot of volunteer work down in Kentucky & Tennessee.
You aren't making it easy for me to do one of my anti foreigner diatribes.
About the only volunteer stuff (and it was forced) I did with my church youth group was going to hang out with really old church members that were shut-ins. I thought it was bad when we had to go to the ones who still lived in their own houses. Then I got my first experience inside a nursing home.
Here is one in India. She will make these Indian females equal and treated with respect, and hopefully she does not get raped by a frat guy when she returns home.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/603714_10151619709010625_132594406_n.jpg)
Yeah, I've seen some positions for Victim Advocacy for various overseas concerns, to help lovely ladies like that deal with their issues and criminal cases after they've been gang raped six ways from Sunday in whatever 3rd world shithole they think they're trying to make a difference in.
Nice eyes. Hidden boobs :(
Quote from: derspiess on May 02, 2013, 10:19:49 AM
My cousin's kids are getting all into this via their church. The older one is a junior in high school and is saving all the money from his part time job to pay for his trip to Guatemala this summer to help build some stuff in a village or something.
I'm sure my kids will be too self-centered and lazy at that age to even think about doing something like that.
See, those make a little more sense. The goal with those isn't to improve the third world, but to trick some of the locals into adopting Protestantism in gratitude.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 02, 2013, 08:48:31 PM
Here is one in India. She will make these Indian females equal and treated with respect, and hopefully she does not get raped by a frat guy when she returns home.
Way to turn the misogyny over 9000 there pal.
Anyway we have had many threads about this. If you really want to help the third world you need to do your research and find what is actually needed. It is rather annoying how big of a con industry this is, you really have to be careful. The fact that most of us know precisely jack and shit about these other countries makes it really hard to have a significant positive influence. I guess if I was doing it I would try to find particularly philanthropic locals and see what they need.
Because the locals in Africa would never scam you. Why one time, I got an email from a local prince, who just needed to borrow my bank information and he'd be able to give me some money. I'm just waiting for it to come through now....
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:07:08 AM
Because the locals in Africa would never scam you.
Well right I would have to really know what I am doing and who is on the up and up. Did I not just say that in that exact paragraph?
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 08:08:24 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:07:08 AM
Because the locals in Africa would never scam you.
Well right I would have to really know what I am doing and who is on the up and up. Did I not just say that in that exact paragraph?
No idea. I just saw that you weren't advocating the only moral position (letting the Africans genocide each other) and got angry.
Quote from: Neil on May 03, 2013, 08:09:59 AM
No idea. I just saw that you weren't advocating the only moral position (letting the Africans genocide each other) and got angry.
Do not worry, I am not doing anything to help people abroad I was only saying what I would do if I wanted to :contract:
Quote from: Phillip V on May 02, 2013, 08:48:31 PM
Here is one in India. She will make these Indian females equal and treated with respect, and hopefully she does not get raped by a frat guy when she returns home.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/603714_10151619709010625_132594406_n.jpg)
Does she realize that those kids probably think she is a dumbass?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_wSy_UwmIk
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 09:14:54 AM
Does she realize that those kids probably think she is a dumbass?
Nope, because she's too busy "helping" them. White man's burden :(
Oh, I have an ancedote to offer up: my parents have college friends whose daughter went to some shithole part of Africa to do stuff like this, and ended up being raped and almost murdered. :(
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 09:57:33 AM
Oh, I have an ancedote to offer up: my parents have college friends whose daughter went to some shithole part of Africa to do stuff like this, and ended up being raped and almost murdered. :(
It is not uncommon. I have read that female Peace Corps get raped each year with little post-support or prosecution of their attackers.
And why wouldn't it be? Unprotected Western women (or any women) in 3rd world (or even 1st world) countries seem like easy targets. I tell young women who want to join the military or volunteer abroad that if they are truly passionate about their beliefs, they need to be ready to be raped and/or die for their cause.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
I just figure if you are going to take the time and money to help people abroad you should find people who know the country and how things work there and has a good idea about what is actually needed. Going over there to gawk at the poors for my own personal enrichment seems a little...erm...wrong somehow.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
Yea, this is how I've always seen it, at least with the college related stuff.
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 10:41:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
I just figure if you are going to take the time and money to help people abroad you should find people who know the country and how things work there and has a good idea about what is actually needed. Going over there to gawk at the poors for my own personal enrichment seems a little...erm...wrong somehow.
:yes:
Quote from: Phillip V on May 03, 2013, 10:38:35 AM
It is not uncommon. I have read that female Peace Corps get raped each year with little post-support or prosecution of their attackers.
IIRC she was in the Peace Corps, yeah. Hot, too. :ph34r:
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
That's what I tell women. Talking and messaging isn't enough. We need to get physically intimate in order to truly know each other. :)
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 10:41:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
I just figure if you are going to take the time and money to help people abroad you should find people who know the country and how things work there and has a good idea about what is actually needed. Going over there to gawk at the poors for my own personal enrichment seems a little...erm...wrong somehow.
The point isn't, in large part, the immediate benefit of the kid's labour - though that is nice.
The point is to engage the kid's empathy, so that rather than just "gawking at the poors", they approach their position in a somewhat different light - presumably making an ongoing difference.
If this is the case, an increase in immediate efficiency is of course welcome, but a lack of it isn't fatal.
These young kids could join the Army or Marines. They help out poor countries. Build schools, wells, infrastructure and so fourth. They can learn a tech trade depending on what MOS they join. Army and Marines are basically like the Peace Corps with the added bonus of the weapons.
:lol:
Quote from: Phillip V on May 03, 2013, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
That's what I tell women. Talking and messaging isn't enough. We need to get physically intimate in order to truly know each other. :)
Does the "please I need your charity" appeal work well with dating? :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:52:49 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 10:41:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:09:37 AM
While I appreciate the typical Languish cynicism - none finer ;) - perhaps what you guys are missing here is that part of the point of such volunteerism isn't simply to offer the (perhaps negligible) physical help of a know-nothing idealistic young Westerner, but to educate said Westerner about the place he or she is being sent, to give them an insight into how other folks live there, and perhaps inspire them to further empathy for the situation these people face?
You don't get any of that from simply cutting a cheque. And while in the short run, earning some cash and cutting a cheque may very well be a better use of these kids' time in terms of efficuency of aid, in the long run, having some actual experience of (and empathy for) these people may be a better investment - as its most crass, it will ensure more cheques in the future.
I just figure if you are going to take the time and money to help people abroad you should find people who know the country and how things work there and has a good idea about what is actually needed. Going over there to gawk at the poors for my own personal enrichment seems a little...erm...wrong somehow.
The point isn't, in large part, the immediate benefit of the kid's labour - though that is nice.
The point is to engage the kid's empathy, so that rather than just "gawking at the poors", they approach their position in a somewhat different light - presumably making an ongoing difference.
If this is the case, an increase in immediate efficiency is of course welcome, but a lack of it isn't fatal.
If there is time and money, traveling is is always nice to "broaden horizons", but immediate interaction is not a prerequisite for empathy. Volunteering abroad for a few months is not a cure for a person raised through early life to be ignorant/narcissistic/coddled. In fact, the trip could worsen them! :o
Increase of empathy and cultivation of compassion can powerfully be done in a dark cave. Or just a regular childhood with books, responsibilities, and engagement in various communities.
Quote from: Phillip V on May 03, 2013, 11:02:22 AM
If there is time and money, traveling is is always nice to "broaden horizons", but immediate interaction is not a prerequisite for empathy. Volunteering abroad for a few months is not a cure for a person raised through early life to be ignorant/narcissistic/coddled. In fact, the trip could worsen them! :o
Increase of empathy and cultivation of compassion can powerfully be done in a dark cave. Or just a regular childhood with books, responsibilities, and engagement in various communities.
No-one is claiming this is the only way to do it. Also, kids who volunteer for this stuff usually have a certain amount of empathy. What this provides, or is intended to provide, is empathy with local knowledge and direct experience. One may agree or disagree, but a criticism that it isn't the best way of delivering services to the poor misses the mark.
So I can't agree that it is "stupid".
What about this situation, Malthus? A childhood friend of Princesca's went to Mali, but instead of being a giant hippy with the Peace Corps she instead went as a Southern Baptist missionary, ostensibly to help 'teach' the children of whatever shithole town she went to. I guess she wasn't aware that the people of Mali already have a religion they are pretty well committed to? :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 12:19:25 PMNo-one is claiming this is the only way to do it. Also, kids who volunteer for this stuff usually have a certain amount of empathy. What this provides, or is intended to provide, is empathy with local knowledge and direct experience. One may agree or disagree, but a criticism that it isn't the best way of delivering services to the poor misses the mark.
So I can't agree that it is "stupid".
Well said.
99% of the people who are going on about volunteering being stupid are trying to justify being lazy and self-centred.
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:32:54 PM
What about this situation, Malthus? A childhood friend of Princesca's went to Mali, but instead of being a giant hippy with the Peace Corps she instead went as a Southern Baptist missionary, ostensibly to help 'teach' the children of whatever shithole town she went to. I guess she wasn't aware that the people of Mali already have a religion they are pretty well committed to? :hmm:
Hey, I come from the Jewish tradition. In our tradition, being a missionary of any sort is just rude.
The Jewish attitude is: everyone should stick with their own absurd ancestral beliefs. Hey, ours are totally silly, and you don't see us trying to convince anyone else to believe this stuff, right? :D
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:52:49 AM
The point isn't, in large part, the immediate benefit of the kid's labour - though that is nice.
The point is to engage the kid's empathy, so that rather than just "gawking at the poors", they approach their position in a somewhat different light - presumably making an ongoing difference.
If this is the case, an increase in immediate efficiency is of course welcome, but a lack of it isn't fatal.
Well if my kids want to do something like that I am going to tell them to help kids in our own city. Not only can they help our legion of screwed over and forgotten impoverished children but they can actually form relationships that can benefit both parties over a lifetime. Dropping in for a few weeks in what may be a phony orphanage designed to grap western dollars and then going back home feeling all empathetic for exotic impoverished children far away does not strike me as useful. They might think things like how we are superior here in the US since we have nobody living under bad conditions like that...
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:32:54 PM
What about this situation, Malthus? A childhood friend of Princesca's went to Mali, but instead of being a giant hippy with the Peace Corps she instead went as a Southern Baptist missionary, ostensibly to help 'teach' the children of whatever shithole town she went to. I guess she wasn't aware that the people of Mali already have a religion they are pretty well committed to? :hmm:
Personal arrogance and ignorance of somewhere, leads to ignorant behaviour and a intolerant reaction ? :unsure:
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
Well, to the extent it is, it is rude.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Well this is my biggest deal with missionaries. My church just funds charities in South Africa, there is no agenda there. We just have charity money so we spend it and sometimes some people from our church go down there (on their own dime) just to check up on things. A 'missionary' thing is explicitely an attempt to convert people to your religion...and for alot of flavors of Christian they have to do this or they are going to hell. Jesus ordered them to do it. So the good religious thing is to convert the locals. Charity for the impoverished is a pretty good converting tactic.
What annoyed me much more than the Mali thing was when Princesca's family church did a mission trip to.... Switzerland (her aunt went on that trip). Yes, I'm sure many of the Swiss yearn to be Southern Baptists. :wacko:
I think you can safely chalk that one up to 'how can we get a free vacation'? :)
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
What annoyed me much more than the Mali thing was when Princesca's family church did a mission trip to.... Switzerland (her aunt went on that trip). Yes, I'm sure many of the Swiss yearn to be Southern Baptists. :wacko:
I think you can safely chalk that one up to 'how can we get a free vacation'? :)
Are there even snakes in Switzerland ? :unsure:
:P
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
What annoyed me much more than the Mali thing was when Princesca's family church did a mission trip to.... Switzerland (her aunt went on that trip). Yes, I'm sure many of the Swiss yearn to be Southern Baptists. :wacko:
I think you can safely chalk that one up to 'how can we get a free vacation'? :)
The Swiss are notoriously curmudgeony about stuff like that...well about everything really but especially about religious stuff. I cannot imagine that went well heh.
The one that annoys me is all the efforts in Israel...especially the constant preying on the weakest links in the society. Considering the whole point of the country was because Christians kept slaughtering them it seemed particularly galling.
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 01:41:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 10:52:49 AM
The point isn't, in large part, the immediate benefit of the kid's labour - though that is nice.
The point is to engage the kid's empathy, so that rather than just "gawking at the poors", they approach their position in a somewhat different light - presumably making an ongoing difference.
If this is the case, an increase in immediate efficiency is of course welcome, but a lack of it isn't fatal.
Well if my kids want to do something like that I am going to tell them to help kids in our own city. Not only can they help our legion of screwed over and forgotten impoverished children but they can actually form relationships that can benefit both parties over a lifetime. Dropping in for a few weeks in what may be a phony orphanage designed to grap western dollars and then going back home feeling all empathetic for exotic impoverished children far away. They might think things like how we are superior here in the US since we have nobody living under bad conditions like that...
Well, part of the alleged benefit of doing stuff like this is that they get an appreciation of, and some knowledge about, places far from home. Another is the self-reliance aspect of simply traveling and living far from home.
A kid can clearly *do* just as much good around his or her own town; but there are benefits *to the kid* to going abroad.
Not sure why the concept creates such hostility - I can see that it may well be dangerous, and may in some cases be a scam, and any Westerner going abriad can be comfortably accused of racism or whatever, but none of that explains the reflexive dislike I'm seeing.
Confession time: I've never done any volunteering of this sort for the disadvantaged, though I did work abroad as a volunteer at an archeological site. An experience that I still look back on with considerable fondness. Part of which can be explained by acquiring my first GF there ... :wub:
Quote from: mongers on May 03, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Are there even snakes in Switzerland ? :unsure:
You are confusing Southern Baptists with Pentecostals. Southern Baptists don't handle snakes (unless you could trouser snakes. :cool: )
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 01:49:26 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
What annoyed me much more than the Mali thing was when Princesca's family church did a mission trip to.... Switzerland (her aunt went on that trip). Yes, I'm sure many of the Swiss yearn to be Southern Baptists. :wacko:
I think you can safely chalk that one up to 'how can we get a free vacation'? :)
The Swiss are notoriously curmudgeony about stuff like that...well about everything really but especially about religious stuff. I cannot imagine that went well heh.
The one that annoys me is all the efforts in Israel...especially the constant preying on the weakest links in the society. Considering the whole point of the country was because Christians kept slaughtering them it seemed particularly galling.
Jews are pretty used to prostheletizing. As I said, it's mostly just seen as rude and annoying.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:53:55 PM
[Well, part of the alleged benefit of doing stuff like this is that they get an appreciation of, and some knowledge about, places far from home. Another is the self-reliance aspect of simply traveling and living far from home.
A kid can clearly *do* just as much good around his or her own town; but there are benefits *to the kid* to going abroad.
Not sure why the concept creates such hostility - I can see that it may well be dangerous, and may in some cases be a scam, and any Westerner going abriad can be comfortably accused of racism or whatever, but none of that explains the reflexive dislike I'm seeing.
Confession time: I've never done any volunteering of this sort for the disadvantaged, though I did work abroad as a volunteer at an archeological site. An experience that I still look back on with considerable fondness. Part of which can be explained by acquiring my first GF there ... :wub:
Well Mexico is good to and they are our beloved neighbors. :viva:
Yeah the whole Imperialism thing sorta creeps me out I admit, especially in Africa. 'Westerners here to help! This has never turned out badly before!'
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:55:12 PM
Jews are pretty used to prostheletizing. As I said, it's mostly just seen as rude and annoying.
In their own country? Created explicitly to get away from Christians? It just seems wrong :P
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Well this is my biggest deal with missionaries. My church just funds charities in South Africa, there is no agenda there. We just have charity money so we spend it and sometimes some people from our church go down there (on their own dime) just to check up on things. A 'missionary' thing is explicitely an attempt to convert people to your religion...and for alot of flavors of Christian they have to do this or they are going to hell. Jesus ordered them to do it. So the good religious thing is to convert the locals. Charity for the impoverished is a pretty good converting tactic.
I go out of my way not to give money to any charity that has any religious affiliation for this reason. I dont want to risk that chance that my money is going to be used in a coercive manner - even if it is a soft sell.
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Well this is my biggest deal with missionaries. My church just funds charities in South Africa, there is no agenda there. We just have charity money so we spend it and sometimes some people from our church go down there (on their own dime) just to check up on things. A 'missionary' thing is explicitely an attempt to convert people to your religion...and for alot of flavors of Christian they have to do this or they are going to hell. Jesus ordered them to do it. So the good religious thing is to convert the locals. Charity for the impoverished is a pretty good converting tactic.
Well the Bible does seem pretty insistent on the whole "spread the Good News" bit. I mean, there's a lot about the Bible that is confusing or muddled, but not that part...
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 02:04:04 PM
Well the Bible does seem pretty insistent on the whole "spread the Good News" bit. I mean, there's a lot about the Bible that is confusing or muddled, but not that part...
Right I know that and you know that. But Malthus might not so I thought I should mention it. Though to be perfectly honest the Bible is a bit confusing and muddled on what that exactly means and we have been debating it for centuries...just like everything else in Christianity.
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
I think it is fair to ask evangelists that they not be annoying about their efforts, but you can't really ask them not to evangelize.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 02:55:03 PM
I think it is fair to ask evangelists that they not be annoying about their efforts, but you can't really ask them not to evangelize.
Cant have one without the other.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 02:55:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
I think it is fair to ask evangelists that they not be annoying about their efforts, but you can't really ask them not to evangelize.
It's an annoyance regardless of how nicely they go about it.
Quote from: fahdiz on May 03, 2013, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 02:55:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
I think it is fair to ask evangelists that they not be annoying about their efforts, but you can't really ask them not to evangelize.
It's an annoyance regardless of how nicely they go about it.
"Hi there, would you like to learn more about Jesus Christ"
"No thank you."
"Okay then, have a nice day!"
Doesn't seem very annoying to me...
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
"Hi there, would you like to learn more about Jesus Christ"
"No thank you."
"Okay then, have a nice day!"
Doesn't seem very annoying to me...
If they come to my door to say it, thats annoying. If they say that to me on the street, thats annoying. If they say that to someone in another country that practices another religion or another brand of Christianity that is really annoying.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
"Hi there, would you like to learn more about Jesus Christ"
"No thank you."
"Okay then, have a nice day!"
Doesn't seem very annoying to me...
If they come to my door to say it, thats annoying. If they say that to me on the street, thats annoying. If they say that to someone in another country that practices another religion or another brand of Christianity that is really annoying.
:huh:
People are fully entitled to come to your front door, and to approach you on the street.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:19:37 PM:huh:
People are fully entitled to come to your front door, and to approach you on the street.
And I am fully entitled to be annoyed at them when they do.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 03:20:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:19:37 PM:huh:
People are fully entitled to come to your front door, and to approach you on the street.
And I am fully entitled to be annoyed at them when they do.
Sure. But your annoyance is not justified.
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
What annoyed me much more than the Mali thing was when Princesca's family church did a mission trip to.... Switzerland (her aunt went on that trip). Yes, I'm sure many of the Swiss yearn to be Southern Baptists. :wacko:
The church I grew up in has missions all over the world including in North America. The congregation we moved to in Saskatchewan in my early teens was a mission the the afjefallen* Mennonites :).
Not sure how to spell this word. It's Plautdietsch, so I don't think it has an official spelling. It could be best translated as "fallen away".
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:23:03 PM
Sure. But your annoyance is not justified.
As justified as getting annoyed at panhandlers.
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:19:37 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 03:14:59 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
"Hi there, would you like to learn more about Jesus Christ"
"No thank you."
"Okay then, have a nice day!"
Doesn't seem very annoying to me...
If they come to my door to say it, thats annoying. If they say that to me on the street, thats annoying. If they say that to someone in another country that practices another religion or another brand of Christianity that is really annoying.
:huh:
People are fully entitled to come to your front door, and to approach you on the street.
Can I demand their address and turn up at inopportune times to tell them about my own 'faith' ?
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:19:37 PM
People are fully entitled to come to your front door, and to approach you on the street.
So being legally entitled to do something prevents it from being annoying?
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
"Hi there, would you like to learn more about Jesus Christ"
"No thank you."
"Okay then, have a nice day!"
Doesn't seem very annoying to me...
Usually they say nothing they just hand me a flyer that says I am a horrible piece of garbage but if I accept Jesus I will be saved. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 03:25:47 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
What annoyed me much more than the Mali thing was when Princesca's family church did a mission trip to.... Switzerland (her aunt went on that trip). Yes, I'm sure many of the Swiss yearn to be Southern Baptists. :wacko:
The church I grew up in has missions all over the world including in North America. The congregation we moved to in Saskatchewan in my early teens was a mission the the afjefallen* Mennonites :).
Not sure how to spell this word. It's Plautdietsch, so I don't think it has an official spelling. It could be best translated as "fallen away".
But every mennonite congregation thinks every other mennonite congregation is doing it wrong. :)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
I was not aware there were established protocols of annoyance. :hmm:
I think my favs are the Mormons. Those kids' hearts clearly are not in it, they do not give a fuck if you are interested, they are just required to.
'So...wanna be a Mormon?'
'Nope.'
'Yeah, whatever.'
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2013, 03:31:09 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
I was not aware there were established protocols of annoyance. :hmm:
At 3:26 there weren't. At 3:27 there were.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:29:25 PM
But every mennonite congregation thinks every other mennonite congregation is doing it wrong. :)
Not really, the more conservative reform groups, yes, but the bulk of the traditional Mennonite groups are pretty ok with someone being from another tradition. Many of them are only differentiated by the different traditions coming from different communities in Europe. Tradition is a very important factor and it is more important that you follow your traditions than that you adopt mine.
Which was why the church I was with was so offensive to these other groups. Not only did they proselytize, but they wouldn't accept the baptisms of these other groups but would require anyone who came to the church to be re-baptized.
There's some irony there if you know your religious history.
Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 03:42:22 PM
Not really, the more conservative reform groups, yes, but the bulk of the traditional Mennonite groups are pretty ok with someone being from another tradition. Many of them are only differentiated by the different traditions coming from different communities in Europe. Tradition is a very important factor and it is more important that you follow your traditions than that you adopt mine.
Heh, they sound like Jews. :D
Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 03:42:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:29:25 PM
But every mennonite congregation thinks every other mennonite congregation is doing it wrong. :)
Not really, the more conservative reform groups, yes, but the bulk of the traditional Mennonite groups are pretty ok with someone being from another tradition. Many of them are only differentiated by the different traditions coming from different communities in Europe. Tradition is a very important factor and it is more important that you follow your traditions than that you adopt mine.
Which was why the church I was with was so offensive to these other groups. Not only did they proselytize, but they wouldn't accept the baptisms of these other groups but would require anyone who came to the church to be re-baptized.
There's some irony there if you know your religious history.
That's not what my mennonite buddy told me.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2013, 03:42:22 PM
Not really, the more conservative reform groups, yes, but the bulk of the traditional Mennonite groups are pretty ok with someone being from another tradition. Many of them are only differentiated by the different traditions coming from different communities in Europe. Tradition is a very important factor and it is more important that you follow your traditions than that you adopt mine.
Heh, they sound like Jews. :D
Well the bounds are narrower, you need to be Christian, pacifist, with adult baptism among other things. For some you also need to speak German, since that is traditional and also the language God spoke.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on May 03, 2013, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 02:55:03 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
I think it is fair to ask evangelists that they not be annoying about their efforts, but you can't really ask them not to evangelize.
It's an annoyance regardless of how nicely they go about it.
"Hi there, would you like to learn more about Jesus Christ"
"No thank you."
"Okay then, have a nice day!"
Doesn't seem very annoying to me...
It is, though.
It's a sliding scale of annoyance - it begins at the very mild side ("You stopped me in the street to talk about Jesus? Uh...I'm on my way down the street because I'm
going somewhere.") and moves progressively down the slider the more in-your-face they become.
Just because being stopped in the street is annoying doesn't mean it can't occur, but the fact that it can occur doesn't make it non-annoying.
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
No, because directions are real. :P
EDIT: That's a flippant answer, but the fact is that there is a material difference between asking directions/the time and wanting to engage me in a proselytizing religious conversation.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
Or the time.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
Hey BB do you think being stopped in the street because by someone who is lost is the same thing as being stopped in the street by someone trying to convert you to another religion?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
Or the time.
Nope, I do not mind a bit when people ask me the time, unless it's a lead-in question for asking me if I have money for them or if I have Jesus in my heart.
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
It's a question of tactics.
I once asked a sincere Christian whom I admired (a mother of a friend of mine) why she did *not* try to prosthelytize. Her answer was that expressly preaching *at* people just irritated them and people mostly did it for their *own* benefit, not to help others become Christian - it's a form of spiritual egotism; "look how committed I am". Very rarely does someone genuinely become Christian because some guy askes them in the street.
Much better, she said, was to live and act the way a Christian ought to live and act - if you do it right, you will inspire by example.
I admired her answer, though to be frank, I was never particularly tempted to become Christian even though I found her an admirable person.
Quote from: fahdiz on May 03, 2013, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
Or the time.
Nope, I do not mind a bit when people ask me the time, unless it's a lead-in question for asking me if I have money for them or if I have Jesus in my heart.
I have some tolerance for street encounters up to a point, what annoyance I have is for door-steeping religious characters, as in one sense on their part it's an intentional invasion of my privacy.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 03, 2013, 03:53:08 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Hey F - do you get annoyed if someone stops you on the street to ask for directions?
Hey BB do you think being stopped in the street because by someone who is lost is the same thing as being stopped in the street by someone trying to convert you to another religion?
It is though- it's a momentary interruption (unless you consent to it being longer).
Look, I feel annoyed when someone comes up to me and asks me for money. But the thing is, I don't think I'm justified to feel that way. The beggar has every right to ask me for loose change. As long as it isn't long or protracted a quick "do you have any change" isn't putting me out in any way.
Whether it is to get directions, some loose change, or to save your soul, the person making the pitch because it is important to them. So I don't think it's fair to feel annoyed at that.
What's so bad about feeling annoyed?
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 04:00:39 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 03, 2013, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:41:19 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Yes, I'm sure trying to convert people wasn't on her agenda at all. :ph34r:
SHe would not be a very good Christian if conversion was not on her agenda.
That is the problem with evangelical religions (which is most of them). Tolerance for other religions is logically unsound in the context of a monotheistic god who is going to punish non-believers.
It's a question of tactics.
I once asked a sincere Christian whom I admired (a mother of a friend of mine) why she did *not* try to prosthelytize. Her answer was that expressly preaching *at* people just irritated them and people mostly did it for their *own* benefit, not to help others become Christian - it's a form of spiritual egotism; "look how committed I am". Very rarely does someone genuinely become Christian because some guy askes them in the street.
Much better, she said, was to live and act the way a Christian ought to live and act - if you do it right, you will inspire by example.
I admired her answer, though to be frank, I was never particularly tempted to become Christian even though I found her an admirable person.
Yes, that's an excellent stance, but the street buttonholer must succeed in a tiny percentage of encounters, my guess would be almost exclusively with vulnerable or troubled people ?
I'd like to point out that a lot of modern-day evangelizing isn't going up to strangers but just people being super friendly and willing to talk about their faith at the drop of a hat.
Quote from: mongers on May 03, 2013, 04:03:12 PM
I have some tolerance for street encounters up to a point, what annoyance I have is for door-steeping religious characters, as in one sense on their part it's an intentional invasion of my privacy.
Oh yeah, the ones who come to the door deserve to be sent packing.
If you can't be polite enough to consider a "NO SOLICITATION" sign, how could you possibly be polite enough to engage me fruitfully in a conversation about how I am going to hell?
Quote from: mongers on May 03, 2013, 04:06:27 PM
Yes, that's an excellent stance, but the street buttonholer must succeed in a tiny percentage of encounters, my guess would be almost exclusively with vulnerable or troubled people ?
They are the PUAs of the spiritual world. :lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
I had some Mormons ring my doorbell at 8:30 PM on a weeknight once, after I had just spent over an hour trying to get my sick daughter to go to sleep (she had a fever and was feeling super shitty). The doorbell, of course, woke her.
They got such a fucking earful from me.
Oh, and I had a "NO SOLICITING" sign right by the doorbell, too. He tried to argue with me about what "solicitation" meant, before he saw how angry he was making me.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Nope. And the door to door guys never ever ever just have one line of dialogue.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Is 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Is 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Is 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
Are you my dad or something? :lol:
"It's 9 AM on a weekend - ready to chop some trees down after a 10 km hike?"
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 04:14:46 PMNope. And the door to door guys never ever ever just have one line of dialogue.
With me they do...
MISSIONARY
Hi, are you concerned about [some social problem that's being used for purposes of proselytizing]?
Missionary's five year old kid looks miserable.
JACOB
Thanks I'm not interested. Have a nice day.
Jacob closes door.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:16:30 PMIs 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
Early enough that I'm doing other stuff, like getting ready to go somewhere, cooking, having sex, reading a book, or otherwise enjoying my time not being at work.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 04:19:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Is 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
Are you my dad or something? :lol:
"It's 9 AM on a weekend - ready to chop some trees down after a 10 km hike?"
I have young kids - they get up at the same time whether or not it's the weekend...
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:22:38 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:16:30 PMIs 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
Early enough that I'm doing other stuff, like getting ready to go somewhere, cooking, having sex, reading a book, or otherwise enjoying my time not being at work.
:yes:
Or, Wotan forbid, actually still sleeping. Once in a blue moon nothing beats a good sleep-in.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:27:17 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 04:19:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2013, 03:27:19 PM
I'm with Beeb. Everyone gets one free line of dialogue before annoyance is justified.
Even ringing your doorbell at 9 AM on a Saturday?
Is 9am supposed to be early? :unsure:
Are you my dad or something? :lol:
"It's 9 AM on a weekend - ready to chop some trees down after a 10 km hike?"
I have young kids - they get up at the same time whether or not it's the weekend...
I remember those days - doesn't make it any more appropriate for someone to come to my door. They didn't know whether I had kids or not.
Bottom line: People trying to sell you shit, unsolicited, is rude and annoying. Proselytizing is trying to sell you something. It's rude and annoying. It can be more or less rude and annoying depending on the context, but it's rude and annoying.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:03:32 PM
Whether it is to get directions, some loose change, or to save your soul, the person making the pitch because it is important to them. So I don't think it's fair to feel annoyed at that.
I am not offended that someone is lost and needs some help. That says nothing about me. I am not offended that someone needs to know what time it is. That says nothing about me. I am offended and annoyed when someone wants to save my soul because it says there is something about me that needs to change.
If you cant see the difference there it is because you have consumed the cool aid.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:31:40 PM
Bottom line: People trying to sell you shit, unsolicited, is rude and annoying. Proselytizing is trying to sell you something. It's rude and annoying. It can be more or less rude and annoying depending on the context, but it's rude and annoying.
But it isn't annoying or rude, at least inherently. I had my driveway shovelled once this winter when a young girl offered to do it for me for $10. I've bought candy bars to fund kids going somewhere, and cookies from girl scouts.
It's all in how it's done.
And you don't have to answer the door if you don't want to.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:31:40 PM
Bottom line: People trying to sell you shit, unsolicited, is rude and annoying. Proselytizing is trying to sell you something. It's rude and annoying. It can be more or less rude and annoying depending on the context, but it's rude and annoying.
Disagree. They are trying to provide you with information. There are theoretically people in the world who feel they would benefit from the information (people do in reality convert). So one line of dialogue is sufficient to find out if you're receptive to the message or not.
p.s. Also agree with Beeb that not every attempt at a sale is by definition rude.
Quote from: Barrister on May 03, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2013, 04:31:40 PM
Bottom line: People trying to sell you shit, unsolicited, is rude and annoying. Proselytizing is trying to sell you something. It's rude and annoying. It can be more or less rude and annoying depending on the context, but it's rude and annoying.
But it isn't annoying or rude, at least inherently.
BB, to show the conviction of your words please post a sign prominantly in your front yard that says "door to door salespeople welcome!"
I torment door knockers, jesus freaks, ADT salesmen and my new pet peeve, the energy company people.
I would always get my Dad when the Witnesses knocked on Saturday mornings, since he was always nice enough to listen to them. Drove Mom batshit.
I liked the copies of the Watchtower, because they always had really cool illustrations of armageddon on the cover.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:32:54 PM
What about this situation, Malthus? A childhood friend of Princesca's went to Mali, but instead of being a giant hippy with the Peace Corps she instead went as a Southern Baptist missionary, ostensibly to help 'teach' the children of whatever shithole town she went to. I guess she wasn't aware that the people of Mali already have a religion they are pretty well committed to? :hmm:
Hey, I come from the Jewish tradition. In our tradition, being a missionary of any sort is just rude.
The Jewish attitude is: everyone should stick with their own absurd ancestral beliefs. Hey, ours are totally silly, and you don't see us trying to convince anyone else to believe this stuff, right? :D
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
Quote from: Malthus on May 03, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 03, 2013, 01:32:54 PM
What about this situation, Malthus? A childhood friend of Princesca's went to Mali, but instead of being a giant hippy with the Peace Corps she instead went as a Southern Baptist missionary, ostensibly to help 'teach' the children of whatever shithole town she went to. I guess she wasn't aware that the people of Mali already have a religion they are pretty well committed to? :hmm:
Hey, I come from the Jewish tradition. In our tradition, being a missionary of any sort is just rude.
The Jewish attitude is: everyone should stick with their own absurd ancestral beliefs. Hey, ours are totally silly, and you don't see us trying to convince anyone else to believe this stuff, right? :D
OTOH, if she's just there to help out because it's the good religious thing to do or whatever, and not to try and convince the people of Mali to be Baptists, not a big deal.
thats my attitude too. yet so many people of germanic stock insist on this jewish god stuff. pah.
missionaries are scum. its a bit of a different topic to this but they just annoy me so much. theyre pretty common in japan. all the worse because they think theyre in the right with their immoral deeds
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 03, 2013, 05:00:04 PM
I torment door knockers, jesus freaks, ADT salesmen and my new pet peeve, the energy company people.
Post a sign.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 04, 2013, 04:19:38 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 03, 2013, 05:00:04 PM
I torment door knockers, jesus freaks, ADT salesmen and my new pet peeve, the energy company people.
Post a sign.
Doesn't work. Plus they are argumentative now. Some black bitch from DP&L energy had the balls to refuse to leave my property when told to STFU and git.
Now the gate stays shut. FESTUNG ED.