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General Category => Off the Record => Topic started by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 08:52:11 AM

Title: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 08:52:11 AM
http://blackgirldangerous.org/new-blog/2013/3/21/whats-wrong-with-the-term-person-of-color

Straight up blog by two women so text above is not so important. When I saw this on facebook, it did get me thinking though. I don't know that I've ever taken issue with the term "person of color" though it does sound a little odd buy suggesting white people lack pigment.  I'm not sure though that there's any problem with lumping Indians and African-Americans together - doesn't seem much more arbitrary than the two divided racial groups we have now.

QuoteMy tension with the term 'person of color' begins in high school. It begins at a stay-away anti-oppression camp in Jefferson City, Missouri.  I was grouped with 50 other young people around my age, most of us just starting to put words to our lived experiences: race, class, gender, sex.  It feels quaint now, because I can't remember the last time I went through a day without saying 'colonization' or 'White supremacy'.  But back then, these were unfamiliar terms that rolled awkwardly in my throat, brought up the salty-fresh reminder of identity and woundedness.

When we began a particular fishbowl activity where we divided into  'people of color' and 'White people', the three Asian kids, including me, joined the White folks' group.  This sounds ridiculous now, but it was what made sense at the time.  Most of the camp attendees were from St. Louis, which has stark Black/White segregation.  Missouri was a slave state, and St. Louis's urban/suburban race and class structuring still hugely reflects that history.  My understanding of racial privilege and oppression was shaped exactly by the immense antiblackness in my communities.  When the discussion on racism began, however, all of us Asian kids broke down and cried.  It was clear to us that we didn't have White privilege, but 'people of color' didn't fit either when the only other context we had for it was a group of our Black peers using it as a solidarity term.

The facilitator of the POC group held my hands, held my eyes with hers and asked me if I would consider joining the people of color group.  I spent the rest of camp, and much of my young activist life, dancing under the term POC, and in a sense forgetting about that original tension.  I want to return to that moment of racial ambivalence, and why it happened.

That moment was unsettling precisely because even if Black and Asian kids had a common experience of being racialized, we didn't have a common racialized experience.  Being a Desi kid in St. Louis is not like being a Black kid in St. Louis (or anywhere else).  Even if we live in the same neighborhoods, Black people in the US largely have their ancestry in formerly enslaved peoples, and most South Asian folks are immigrants or immigrants' children.  My people were colonized and faced all the associated violence of colonization, but their original struggle happened in South Asia.  And you can argue that my parents and I immigrated to the US because of the economic systems of the time, but we were not brought here as slaves, and this is not land that was taken from us forcefully.  We are not White people, but we are also settlers.  This land does not carry our enslavement or our original colonial struggle.

Black cultural theorist Frank Wilderson's Red, White, and Black argues that early US America was constructed in a racial triangle of Settler/Savage/Slave.  White people, White men really, claimed this land and because they were able to use Black bodies for slave labor, they were able to launch a genocide on Indigenous peoples.  That is, the dehumanization and exploitation of Black people scaffolded the erasure of Native peoples.  This was the racial order set in place in the early formation of the US as a White supremacist state.

This model leaves a whole lot of us out, of course. API folks, Latinos, Middle Eastern folks, and many more of us don't fit into that racial triangle. We're not White, and we bring our own histories of colonization.  Many of us were colonized by the US itself, and White people have supremacy over all of us in various and different ways.  But the fact is our land and resources were not stolen from us in this space and our ancestors were not brought here as slaves (with some important exceptions).

That place-based specificity is what the term 'person of color' doesn't deal with adequately. As an identifier, 'person of color' can be slippery for a lot of politicized, non-Black, non-indigenous, non-White people in the US, for 2 reasons:

1) US/Western imperialism is so widespread that it even imposes its ways of doing racism on the rest of the world, and on people of color.  For example, my family is upper caste, and that caste position is partly what enabled our immigration to the US.  It also means that we're lighter-skinned South Asians (read: closer to Aryan British colonizers).  Using the term 'POC' as my identifier rather than 'South Asian' or 'Desi' means  I never unpack these non-Western racial systems that are also at play.

2) Many of our communities have benefited variously from racism.  South Asian communities I've been involved in use antiblack racism as one strategy of assimilation.  Because as White people have established, the easiest way to shore up your racial supremacy is to be antiblack, displayed in everything from microaggressions to employment discrimination to violence.  We know that people of color can be racist towards each other.  What I'm saying is that many of us also reap systematic advantages from the racist attitudes and structures that are held by our entire communities.

How do we, as politicized people of color, acknowledge the very limits of the term 'people of color' and the way it can mask our actual racial situations?  For example, why do we keep using the phrase 'communities of color' as targets of police and state violence when we primarily mean Black and Latino folks?  What races are we trying to contain in the word 'brown'?  Why are we afraid to point to the specificities of racism?  Do we think it will divide us?  Do we think we are really not capable of understanding and working from the different ways we experience racism?

As long as the vocabularies of our struggle derive from the homogenizing actions of White supremacy, we will be that much farther from racial liberation.

Still, it's helpful to understand 'POC' is still a useful term.  Quoting Loretta Ross of the Sistersong Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective in her interview with Racialicious, 'woman of color' emerged from a Black feminist platform at a National Women's Conference in Houston in the 1970s.

So they actually formed a group called Black Women's Agenda to come [sic] to Houston with a Black women's plan of action that they wanted the delegates to vote to substitute for the "Minority Women's Plank that was in the proposed plan of action.

Well, a funny thing happened in Houston: when they took the Black Women's Agenda to Houston, then all the rest of the "minority" women of color wanted to be included in the "Black Women's Agenda." Okay? Well, [the Black women] agreed...but you could no longer call it the "Black Women's Agenda." And it was in those negotiations in Houston [that] the term "women of color" was created. Okay?  And they didn't see it as a biological designation—you're born Asian, you're born Black, you're born African American, whatever—but it is a solidarity definition, a commitment to work in collaboration with other oppressed women of color who have been "minoritized."

Identifying as a person of color in solidarity with other people of color says 'hey, my people have been oppressed by White people, maybe in a different time and space than your people, but we can work in solidarity.'  The identification needs to carry some degree of humility, and a deeper commitment to allyship .  The POC umbrella is not an excuse to disavow the ways we benefit from various racial structures and sit idly by as our communities reap advantages from racism towards other people of color.

Black-Asian solidarity in the US, for instance, is hard to find and it will continue to be difficult to build if we continue to use the uncritical 'POC' label.  Rather, we can use 'POC' as a way of reflecting on our different racial histories and building coalitions in our struggles and their difference.  POC is a term for building solidarity between movements, not a movement in itself.  That distinction is important.

I'll leave you with Audre Lorde: 

'It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences.' --Audre Lorde, Our Dead Behind Us: Poems
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 09:00:30 AM
I stopped reading when I got to the "anti-oppression camp" and my brain shut off. Wtfux?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Its not wrong wrong is it?
Its just one of those silly things old people say, just wrong, not offensive.


Anything that speaks of imperialism when not actually talking about imperialism: :bleeding:

QuoteIt also means that we're lighter-skinned South Asians (read: closer to Aryan British colonizers)
:lmfao:
OK. This girl totally belongs in the white camp, she's about as Asian as my little finger.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:02:12 AM
FWIW garbon, I think you're a very colorful person.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:03:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Its not wrong wrong is it?
Its just one of those silly things old people say, just wrong, not offensive.

:huh:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:04:19 AM
It's a scam to get non-blacks to support the black agenda.

Best part of the article:

QuoteQuoting Loretta Ross of the Sistersong Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective in her interview with Racialicious,
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:05:18 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:02:12 AM
FWIW garbon, I think you're a very colorful person.

Well I was thinking as someone who gets mistaken for most "person of color" races that it seemed odd to find it wrong but not the use of the racial groups in the first place.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
:lmfao:
OK. This girl totally belongs in the white camp, she's about as Asian as my little finger.

?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.squarespace.com%2Fstatic%2F50b3ef0ae4b036192ac7edd6%2Ft%2F514b8a18e4b0f02803d759d5%2F1363905071205%2Fjanani%2520new.jpg%3Fformat%3D500w&hash=2b1c782fbf1b6fa9f843edad125f9bbbd08f3acf)
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2013, 09:06:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:03:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Its not wrong wrong is it?
Its just one of those silly things old people say, just wrong, not offensive.

:huh:
"Have you met my new neighbour? He's coloured." != "Have you met my new neighbour? He's a n*@%$r"

Quote?
The Indians are the real Aryans. To use Nazi terminology and call the British the Aryan ones is indicating a completely ignorance of India.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:07:39 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:06:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:03:49 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Its not wrong wrong is it?
Its just one of those silly things old people say, just wrong, not offensive.

:huh:
"Have you met my new neighbour? He's coloured." != "Have you met my new neighbour? He's a n*@%$r"

I'm now convinced you've never encountered the term "person of color". :mellow:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2013, 09:08:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:07:39 AM
I'm now convinced you've never encountered the term "person of color". :mellow:

I have. My nanna says coloured all the time. Its pretty typical old people speak. Person of colour is even more archaic.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:05:18 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:02:12 AM
FWIW garbon, I think you're a very colorful person.

Well I was thinking as someone who gets mistaken for most "person of color" races that it seemed odd to find it wrong but not the use of the racial groups in the first place.

I think it's more of a reference used in legal/HR circles more than anything else.  Supposed to sound officious, yet passive.  I think it's silly.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:06:24 AM
Quote?
The Indians are the real Aryans. To use Nazi terminology and call the British the Aryan ones is indicating a completely ignorance of India.

She's certainly off whack - which Marti pointed out clearly at "anti-oppression camp" but I don't know what that has to do with her belonging to a white camp?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2013, 09:09:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:09:04 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:06:24 AM
Quote?
The Indians are the real Aryans. To use Nazi terminology and call the British the Aryan ones is indicating a completely ignorance of India.

She's certainly off whack - which Marti pointed out clearly at "anti-oppression camp" but I don't know what that has to do with her belonging to a white camp?
I believe 'Oreo' is the term the African-American community uses?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Its not wrong wrong is it?
Its just one of those silly things old people say, just wrong, not offensive.

Actually it is the new thing.  A couple years ago we were told that we are no longer supposed to use 'African-American' and now 'people of color' was the new PC term (though 'people of color' seems to cover all non-white people but I am not down on my terminology so I could be wrong).  I think you are thinking of 'colored people' which was in vogue back in the 20th century sometime.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:14:38 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:13:48 AM
I think you are thinking of 'colored people' which was in vogue back in the 20th century sometime.

lol, yeah, like 1963.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:15:17 AM
Back in the 20th century?  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:18:14 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:14:38 AM
lol, yeah, like 1963.

Well the NAACP was founded waaaay back in 1900 or so.  I was not sure when exactly that was the in style phrase.  By 1963 it was a little archaic though right?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:19:56 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored

QuoteThe term colored appeared in North America during the colonial era. In 1851 an article in the New York Times referred to the "colored population". In 1863, the War Department established the Bureau of Colored Troops. The first 12 Census counts in the U.S. enumerated '"colored" people, who totaled nine million in 1900. The Census counts of 1910–1960 enumerated "negroes."
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
Ok then.  19th-20th century.  Whatevs.  The point is the new term is not the old term.  'People of Color' is the new PC term unless it has been replaced and I was not informed.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:22:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
Ok then.  19th-20th century.  Whatevs.  The point is the new term is not the old term.  'People of Color' is the new PC term unless it has been replaced and I was not informed.

Oh I wasn't trying to contradict you. I agree. :)
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:22:38 AM
Colored was in until around 1960.

Then it was black, which was in until around 1980.

Then it was African-American.

Around 2000 it split into black, African-American, and person of color.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
When did "boy" go into use?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: PDH on March 22, 2013, 09:28:29 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
When did "boy" go into use?

A lot of times during traffic stops.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Caliga on March 22, 2013, 09:28:30 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:22:38 AM
Colored was in until around 1960.

Then it was black, which was in until around 1980.

Then it was African-American.

Around 2000 it split into black, African-American, and person of color.
I think there was a brief Afro-American phase prior to African-American.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:31:00 AM
Quote from: PDH on March 22, 2013, 09:28:29 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
When did "boy" go into use?

A lot of times during traffic stops.

Absolutely no reason to raise the threat level in that situation, no sir.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:38:15 AM
Quote1) US/Western imperialism is so widespread that it even imposes its ways of doing racism on the rest of the world, and on people of color.  For example, my family is upper caste, and that caste position is partly what enabled our immigration to the US.  It also means that we're lighter-skinned South Asians (read: closer to Aryan British colonizers).  Using the term 'POC' as my identifier rather than 'South Asian' or 'Desi' means  I never unpack these non-Western racial systems that are also at play

'Is' so widespread...as in still widespread?  I have certainly heard the, rather controversial, idea the British tightened and formalized the Caste system but I never heard they assigned people their caste based on skin color.  And how would one 'unpack' a non-Western racial system that may or may not be also at play?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 09:44:33 AM
Aren't we all people of colour? Mine just happens to be pale bluey-pink.

Under South African apartheid, there were four population groups: Black, White, Indian, and Coloured (capitalised), with the Coloured group including people regarded as being of mixed descent.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:46:23 AM
I thought in South Africa Coloured included both mixed race and Indian. :nerd:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:38:15 AM
Quote1) US/Western imperialism is so widespread that it even imposes its ways of doing racism on the rest of the world, and on people of color.  For example, my family is upper caste, and that caste position is partly what enabled our immigration to the US.  It also means that we're lighter-skinned South Asians (read: closer to Aryan British colonizers).  Using the term 'POC' as my identifier rather than 'South Asian' or 'Desi' means  I never unpack these non-Western racial systems that are also at play

'Is' so widespread...as in still widespread?  I have certainly heard the, rather controversial, idea the British tightened and formalized the Caste system but I never heard they assigned people their caste based on skin color.  And how would one 'unpack' a non-Western racial system that may or may not be also at play?

I think it might have to do with the division between fairer and darker Indians which gets obscured by the western PC term of Person of Color.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:51:33 AM
The passage doesn't make any sense.  Dot head chick is not a clear thinker nor a good writer.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:54:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 09:51:33 AM
The passage doesn't make any sense.  Dot head chick is not a clear thinker nor a good writer.

True.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: mongers on March 22, 2013, 09:55:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
Its not wrong wrong is it?
Its just one of those silly things old people say, just wrong, not offensive.

Actually it is the new thing.  A couple years ago we were told that we are no longer supposed to use 'African-American' and now 'people of color' was the new PC term (though 'people of color' seems to cover all non-white people but I am not down on my terminology so I could be wrong).  I think you are thinking of 'colored people' which was in vogue back in the 20th century sometime.

Thanks for getting me up to speed, had yet heard this new piece of terminology.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:56:57 AM
That said the reason I thought about the bit I posted on fairer vs. darker was that I was recently having a discussion about the use of skin lightening products in Asia with my mother/sister. My sister was of the mind that such products are of questionable morality because they are kind of racist and my question was whether or not that was us projecting our Americal racial beliefs onto such beauty practices.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: mongers on March 22, 2013, 10:01:24 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:56:57 AM
That said the reason I thought about the bit I posted on fairer vs. darker was that I was recently having a discussion about the use of skin lightening products in Asia with my mother/sister. My sister was of the mind that such products are of questionable morality because they are kind of racist and my question was whether or not that was us projecting our Americal racial beliefs onto such beauty practices.

A better area of enquiry would be in Africa and particularly places like Kenya and South Africa. iirc people who who use those bleaching products are quite explicit as to the main reason why they use them.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:06:51 AM
India is the better example because there you have an identification of light skin with superiority that predates colonialism.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 10:14:59 AM
A preference for lighter skin (hence skin-whitening products among those whose skin is subject to tanning) predates modern notions of race everywhere - it was originally, at least in part, a preference for aping the aristocracy. Light skin = not out in the sun = not working for a living.

Obviously doesn't apply to Africans, though.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: DGuller on March 22, 2013, 10:35:52 AM
It seems like any term has a short lifespan when it is the new politically correct way to refer to people who shouldn't be named, after which is it being regarded as offensive and some new term takes its place.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 10:39:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:56:57 AM
That said the reason I thought about the bit I posted on fairer vs. darker was that I was recently having a discussion about the use of skin lightening products in Asia with my mother/sister. My sister was of the mind that such products are of questionable morality because they are kind of racist and my question was whether or not that was us projecting our Americal racial beliefs onto such beauty practices.

Is it considered more or less weird than white people who go tanning?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:40:43 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 22, 2013, 10:35:52 AM
It seems like any term has a short lifespan when it is the new politically correct way to refer to people who shouldn't be named, after which is it being regarded as offensive and some new term takes its place.

The way I see it blacks have basically been jerking us around since the Civil Rights era, by coming up with a new term as soon as whites had figured out what the last politically correct term was. 

Dance, white boy, dance!!  HA HA HA
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: DGuller on March 22, 2013, 10:42:48 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:40:43 AM
Quote from: DGuller on March 22, 2013, 10:35:52 AM
It seems like any term has a short lifespan when it is the new politically correct way to refer to people who shouldn't be named, after which is it being regarded as offensive and some new term takes its place.

The way I see it blacks have basically been jerking us around since the Civil Rights era, by coming up with a new term as soon as whites had figured out what the last politically correct term was. 

Dance, white boy, dance!!  HA HA HA
I think it's the well-meaning white people that are continuously purging the politically correct terms.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 10:43:50 AM
Out of interest, would Americans call someone of white South African or Zimbabwean descent African American?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:44:28 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 10:14:59 AM
A preference for lighter skin (hence skin-whitening products among those whose skin is subject to tanning) predates modern notions of race everywhere - it was originally, at least in part, a preference for aping the aristocracy. Light skin = not out in the sun = not working for a living.

Obviously doesn't apply to Africans, though.

Yeah but is it fair to continue that into today? I don't think there are many white people now who prefer a pale look over a tanned look.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 10:43:50 AM
Out of interest, would Americans call someone of white South African or Zimbabwean descent African American?

Only if they were trying to be a smart ass.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:45:22 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 10:39:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:56:57 AM
That said the reason I thought about the bit I posted on fairer vs. darker was that I was recently having a discussion about the use of skin lightening products in Asia with my mother/sister. My sister was of the mind that such products are of questionable morality because they are kind of racist and my question was whether or not that was us projecting our Americal racial beliefs onto such beauty practices.

Is it considered more or less weird than white people who go tanning?

Well I brought up that and also black people who use hair relaxers.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:45:35 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 10:43:50 AM
Out of interest, would Americans call someone of white South African or Zimbabwean descent African American?

Only if they were trying to be a smart ass.

:yes:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:55:52 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 10:39:31 AM
Is it considered more or less weird than white people who go tanning?

Tanning is usually associated with healthiness, not with looking more negroid.

IMO the better counter examples are corn rowing and Jay-Lo ass implants.  In these cases white women are aping (no offense intended grab) black and Latina women.  Is that racist?

Or is it only racist when oppressed groups ape dominant groups?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 10:57:47 AM
Tanning is popular now for the same reasons pallor was valued in the past - it's a mark of the leisured classes, exclusive to those who could afford to holiday abroad, before the days of tanning salons and spray tans.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 10:57:47 AM
Tanning is popular now for the same reasons pallor was valued in the past - it's a mark of the leisured classes, exclusive to those who could afford to holiday abroad, before the days of tanning salons and spray tans.

After all, the leather skin has to match the leather handbag.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:59:52 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 10:55:52 AM
Or is it only racist when oppressed groups ape dominant groups?

Well I think it also has to do with aping in the sense that such is the superior way to be. So at one point in time, relaxing one's hair to have it look like a white woman's.  So I think tied up in notions of trying to pass / look less "foreign".  Not so much in your white woman example as that's more like they'd trying out a style.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2013, 11:00:28 AM
I thought tanning was a bit passe now, the mark of someone who doesn't care about their health and goes on crappy package holidays to the Med  :hmm: ?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2013, 11:00:28 AM
I thought tanning was a bit passe now, the mark of someone who doesn't care about their health and goes on crappy package holidays to the Med  :hmm: ?

Here I hear people all the time talking about wanting to work on their tans.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 11:07:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:59:52 AM
Well I think it also has to do with aping in the sense that such is the superior way to be. So at one point in time, relaxing one's hair to have it look like a white woman's.  So I think tied up in notions of trying to pass / look less "foreign".  Not so much in your white woman example as that's more like they'd trying out a style.

I don't see the distinction.  White chicks with corn rows and ass implants get them because they think they looks good.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 11:10:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:59:52 AM
Well I think it also has to do with aping in the sense that such is the superior way to be.

No white person attempts to look more like a "person of color" because it is the "inferior" way to be, do they?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:21:20 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 11:10:23 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:59:52 AM
Well I think it also has to do with aping in the sense that such is the superior way to be.

No white person attempts to look more like a "person of color" because it is the "inferior" way to be, do they?

I don't think so. And that's kind of the difference, at least as far as I understand for people who think this way. For the white person they are just trying out a style that they like.  For the black person, there's always some bit about whether they are doing it just because they want to try out a style they like or are they emulating white people beauty standards because of some internalized racism / pressure to conform to what is "beautiful - which being black is not".

I think that draws credence from things like that black doll / white doll study.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 11:26:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:21:20 AM
I don't think so. And that's kind of the difference, at least as far as I understand for people who think this way. For the white person they are just trying out a style that they like.

You think? I'm sure that's true in some cases, but I'd say there are a lot of white people who emulate black styles (for instance) because they think they are superior to "white styles".
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 11:27:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:21:20 AM
"beautiful - which being black is not".

Which is of course untrue. Ask 90-something % of white women to point out some attractive men, and I'd wager a shit-ton of them are black ;)
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:29:04 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 11:26:00 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:21:20 AM
I don't think so. And that's kind of the difference, at least as far as I understand for people who think this way. For the white person they are just trying out a style that they like.

You think? I'm sure that's true in some cases, but I'd say there are a lot of white people who emulate black styles (for instance) because they think they are superior to "white styles".

Totally possible. I don't have much experience with people like that. /I guess the difference still is that it doesn't really involve racism. They are dressing how they feel like dressing but like...is it some sort of self-esteem/self-perception issue that led to things like "Black is beautiful" campaigning?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 11:27:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:21:20 AM
"beautiful - which being black is not".

Which is of course untrue. Ask 90-something % of white women to point out some attractive men, and I'd wager a shit-ton of them are black ;)

That's it quotes. I don't think it is true but the sort of thing that does certainly exist as some people's perception* - as well as something that someone might draw as a conclusion from attempts of blacks to look white.

As an example, I see a lot of "no blacks" listed in profiles when on dating sites. Usually with a comment like - not racist, just a preference.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 11:36:40 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
That's it quotes. I don't think it is true but the sort of thing that does certainly exist as some people's perception* - as well as something that someone might draw as a conclusion from attempts of blacks to look white.

Yeah, I'm not sure how it works among black women - maybe "black is beautiful" was a reaction to black guys going after white women instead of them?

I would imagine that black men have lots of different things to feel oppressed about, but that one of them is not "an innate ability to pick up women of virtually any ethnic background".

EDIT: I don't mean that last sentence to sound flippant. I sincerely *do* imagine black men would have a lot to complain about.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Agree with fahdiz.  It's a very good time to be a black man who's not in jail.

Light skinned black chicks have it pretty good too.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Agree with fahdiz.  It's a very good time to be a black man who's not in jail.

A commodity in short supply, and demand goes up.  Can set their own price.

QuoteLight skinned black chicks have it pretty good too.

Black chicks in general seem not concerned about bringing home a white boy to Moms anymore.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:45:09 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 11:36:40 AM
Yeah, I'm not sure how it works among black women - maybe "black is beautiful" was a reaction to black guys going after white women instead of them?

I would imagine that black men have lots of different things to feel oppressed about, but that one of them is not "an innate ability to pick up women of virtually any ethnic background".

EDIT: I don't mean that last sentence to sound flippant. I sincerely *do* imagine black men would have a lot to complain about.

That's fair enough but then I didn't realize we were splitting the discussion to discuss each gender separately.  I was just speaking in general of where that sort of opinion can stem from.  In fact, things that we were talking about like hair relaxing have a much bigger market among women than men.

Naturally, of course, my dating site example stemmed from gay sites. :D
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 11:50:36 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:45:09 AM
That's fair enough but then I didn't realize we were splitting the discussion to discuss each gender separately.

Well, I think definitions of beauty, attractiveness, etc are generally a bit different between men and women, so it made sense to me to speak of them separately.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:53:57 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 11:50:36 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:45:09 AM
That's fair enough but then I didn't realize we were splitting the discussion to discuss each gender separately.

Well, I think definitions of beauty, attractiveness, etc are generally a bit different between men and women, so it made sense to me to speak of them separately.

Okay, just seemed like a diversion to me as it'd stemmed from my mentions of whether or not racism is implicit in skin-lightening products. Whether or not black men can get all the ladies, seems immaterial. :D
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 11:57:25 AM
:D Fair enough, I guess it's immaterial to a discussion of skin lightening but is material to a discussion about "beauty".
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 22, 2013, 10:35:52 AM
It seems like any term has a short lifespan when it is the new politically correct way to refer to people who shouldn't be named, after which is it being regarded as offensive and some new term takes its place.

Welcome to the "euphemism treadmill".

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Euphemism#Euphemism_treadmill
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 12:43:23 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2013, 11:00:28 AM
I thought tanning was a bit passe now, the mark of someone who doesn't care about their health and goes on crappy package holidays to the Med  :hmm: ?

Reminds me of the Dr. Suess story "the Sneeches".

The poors got stars on thars!  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: The Brain on March 22, 2013, 01:47:27 PM
Black women look like transvestites. Sue me.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: Brazen on March 22, 2013, 10:43:50 AM
Out of interest, would Americans call someone of white South African or Zimbabwean descent African American?

Well I think this was one of the reasons we dumped 'African-American' we now actually have a substantial number of immigrants from Africa and we didn't back when the term was adopted.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: The Minsky Moment on March 22, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Agree with fahdiz.  It's a very good time to be a black man who's not in jail.

The BLS data sets beg to differ.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 22, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
The BLS data sets beg to differ.

I was mostly talking about scoring the snatch.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 04:05:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 22, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
The BLS data sets beg to differ.

I was mostly talking about scoring the snatch.

Interesting how that stuff works. I read somewhere that the lowest-rated groups to belong to in that respect were Black women and Asian men. Have no idea if it was true, though I suspect it might be - seems that for whatever reason lotsa White dudes have the yellow fever for Asian women, but that the same isn't true of White women for Asian men.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
As an example, I see a lot of "no blacks" listed in profiles when on dating sites. Usually with a comment like - not racist, just a preference.

Wow that's weird.  Of course back when I was doing the online dating thing it was a rare black woman who would not have her list of racial preferences anything other than just black...or at least the ones I was considering.  I would be just like 'oh ok...thanks for letting me know' and move on.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 04:05:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 22, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
The BLS data sets beg to differ.

I was mostly talking about scoring the snatch.

Interesting how that stuff works. I read somewhere that the lowest-rated groups to belong to in that respect were Black women and Asian men. Have no idea if it was true, though I suspect it might be - seems that for whatever reason lotsa White dudes have the yellow fever for Asian women, but that the same isn't true of White women for Asian men.

Most white women don't want to date dudes who are skinnier than they are. :P
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
As an example, I see a lot of "no blacks" listed in profiles when on dating sites. Usually with a comment like - not racist, just a preference.

Wow that's weird.  Of course back when I was doing the online dating thing it was a rare black woman who would not have her list of racial preferences anything other than just black...or at least the ones I was considering.  I would be just like 'oh ok...thanks for letting me know' and move on.

Yeah, I haven't dated in about 4 years but I never saw anything like "no blacks" on the profiles of women whose interests matched mine.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 04:15:40 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
As an example, I see a lot of "no blacks" listed in profiles when on dating sites. Usually with a comment like - not racist, just a preference.

Wow that's weird.  Of course back when I was doing the online dating thing it was a rare black woman who would not have her list of racial preferences anything other than just black...or at least the ones I was considering.  I would be just like 'oh ok...thanks for letting me know' and move on.

Yeah, I haven't dated in about 4 years but I never saw anything like "no blacks" on the profiles of women whose interests matched mine.

Garbon's choice of dating site is unlikely to have any women on it.  :P
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 04:15:40 PM
Garbon's choice of dating site is unlikely to have any women on it.  :P

That's actually quite a salient point :D
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: The Brain on March 22, 2013, 04:19:12 PM
I don't see sex.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:13:53 PM
Yeah, I haven't dated in about 4 years but I never saw anything like "no blacks" on the profiles of women whose interests matched mine.

Well for the site I was on, Match, you listed the races you wanted to get with not the ones you did not.  So you never actually had to explain away why you had certain preferences or whatever.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: The Brain on March 22, 2013, 04:20:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:13:53 PM
Yeah, I haven't dated in about 4 years but I never saw anything like "no blacks" on the profiles of women whose interests matched mine.

Well for the site I was on, Match, you listed the races you wanted to get with not the ones you did not. 

Oh Amerikkka.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Jacob on March 22, 2013, 04:21:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on March 22, 2013, 04:19:12 PM
I don't see sex.

Try the internet.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:13:53 PM
Yeah, I haven't dated in about 4 years but I never saw anything like "no blacks" on the profiles of women whose interests matched mine.

Well for the site I was on, Match, you listed the races you wanted to get with not the ones you did not.  So you never actually had to explain away why you had certain preferences or whatever.

Really?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Martinus on March 22, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
When did "boy" go into use?

It's still in use in BDSM roleplay.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: katmai on March 22, 2013, 04:41:19 PM
Can I still call Seedy "Darkie"?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2013, 05:40:35 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 12:43:23 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2013, 11:00:28 AM
I thought tanning was a bit passe now, the mark of someone who doesn't care about their health and goes on crappy package holidays to the Med  :hmm: ?

Reminds me of the Dr. Suess story "the Sneeches".

The poors got stars on thars!  :lol:

That was a good story  :cool:

So much of human interaction is about that, pity really when rich countries have the basics more or less universally sorted.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: The Brain on March 22, 2013, 05:53:58 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.

Blacks are encouraged by people not being attracted to blacks?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 05:59:47 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
Well for the site I was on, Match, you listed the races you wanted to get with not the ones you did not.  So you never actually had to explain away why you had certain preferences or whatever.

Really?

YAH RLY.

Although the only thing I seem to recall with Match.com was the number of transvestites that seemed substantially higher than the average one would expect for the region.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: dps on March 22, 2013, 06:00:56 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.

Well, the purpose of a dating site is to match people up with those that they're theoretically compatible with, not to advance social justice.

I'm reminded of an incident about 15 years ago when a co-worker was reading the local newspaper in the breakroom and started laughing.  He was glancing at the personals, and saw 2 that were funny, which he shared with the rest of us. 

One which has some connection to the topic at hand, was, "Athletic, still virile black man, 64, seeks blonde-haired, blue-eye woman of Danish extraction, age 23-27.  Must be a good Christian lady, and a non-smoker."  That one just seemed strangely specific, but as someone said, "Well, at least he knows what he wants".

The other one didn't have any connection to the topic, but it was funny, so here goes:  "My ex-boyfriend promised to use his chainsaw to clear the underbrush that has grown up on the access road to my property, but he never did, so I dumped him.  Will exchange sex for road-clearing work.  Must supply own chainsaw".
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 06:06:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.

It is really any different than the other parameters of choice when it comes to attraction, such as age, height, weight and hair color?

Then again, I see somebody who only wants to date someone over 6' when her little ass is only 5'3" as prejudiced as well.  So I know how the black man feels.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:31:05 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 10:45:22 AM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 10:39:31 AM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 09:56:57 AM
That said the reason I thought about the bit I posted on fairer vs. darker was that I was recently having a discussion about the use of skin lightening products in Asia with my mother/sister. My sister was of the mind that such products are of questionable morality because they are kind of racist and my question was whether or not that was us projecting our Americal racial beliefs onto such beauty practices.

Is it considered more or less weird than white people who go tanning?

Well I brought up that and also black people who use hair relaxers.

I used some hair relaxer once.  I looked like Joel Hodgson in the KTMA season of Mystery Science Theatre. :(
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 22, 2013, 04:05:39 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 22, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
The BLS data sets beg to differ.

I was mostly talking about scoring the snatch.

Interesting how that stuff works. I read somewhere that the lowest-rated groups to belong to in that respect were Black women and Asian men. Have no idea if it was true, though I suspect it might be - seems that for whatever reason lotsa White dudes have the yellow fever for Asian women, but that the same isn't true of White women for Asian men.

Most white women don't want to date dudes who are skinnier than they are. :P

Incorrect.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 06:34:15 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 06:06:05 PM
It is really any different than the other parameters of choice when it comes to attraction, such as age, height, weight and hair color?

Yes it is.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 06:36:07 PM
Quote from: dps on March 22, 2013, 06:00:56 PM
Well, the purpose of a dating site is to match people up with those that they're theoretically compatible with, not to advance social justice.

That doesn't mean I can't think it is awful. :mellow:

/I could have given you that if you threw in "they think" after those. But given how mutable race is and how much variations there are in personality and physical attributes among given members of a race - I can't help but think it incredibly close minded.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:39:22 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 11:30:21 AM
As an example, I see a lot of "no blacks" listed in profiles when on dating sites. Usually with a comment like - not racist, just a preference.

Wow that's weird.  Of course back when I was doing the online dating thing it was a rare black woman who would not have her list of racial preferences anything other than just black...or at least the ones I was considering.  I would be just like 'oh ok...thanks for letting me know' and move on.

Yeah, I haven't dated in about 4 years but I never saw anything like "no blacks" on the profiles of women whose interests matched mine.

Possibly because you selected for liberals who wouldn't mention it.  Africa never put "only white guys" on hers.

I never did ask her* if she'd ever thought about her preference or if she considered it a fetish, or if it was racialized in a negative.  I mean, it clearly is a fetish--if me or Money fetishize Asians, and arguably we do, an ironclad "dates whites only" rule definitely counts.  I would like to have sex with people of quality from every population group, so a vague aesthetic preference for Asian phenotype never struck me as highly racialized.  I know that for some people, it's an orientalizing, faintly misogynistic (I DO NOT MEAN YOU :P ) deal rather than a purely aesthetic one like it is for me.  But a "blacks need not apply, period" sign kinda does seem like it might have cultural racial component.

Interesting stuff, but who knows?  I wasn't gonna bring that shit up.  As you know, sex is basically infinitely more valuable than learning about race relations in America or whatever.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:40:54 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 22, 2013, 06:06:05 PM
Then again, I see somebody who only wants to date someone over 6' when her little ass is only 5'3" as prejudiced as well.  So I know how the black man feels.

ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREE.  What the fuck is up with that shit?  Bitches be bigoted.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:39:22 PM
Possibly because you selected for liberals who wouldn't mention it.

Thank goodness for liberals then. :mellow:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:32:53 PM
Incorrect.

What white women are you dating?
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 22, 2013, 08:24:16 PM
:facepalm:
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on March 22, 2013, 08:10:57 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 06:32:53 PM
Incorrect.

What white women are you dating?

Not that, but you think all the fatasses of the world prefer to date/fuck only men bigger than they?  Unlikely.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: fhdz on March 22, 2013, 08:27:07 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 08:24:16 PM
:facepalm:

:D
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 22, 2013, 08:28:41 PM
OH I get it.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Josquius on March 22, 2013, 08:43:37 PM
On the light/dark tanning thing and it being BS that it is racist (of course).
I recall one conversation I had a while ago with an (arse hole) African guy who was insistant that notions of black=evil, white=good were racist. Which is just stupid, it long predates Europeans having anything to do with black people.

Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
Ok then.  19th-20th century.  Whatevs.  The point is the new term is not the old term.  'People of Color' is the new PC term unless it has been replaced and I was not informed.
How odd.
People of colour does sound very archaic to me. More so than coloured even.
Glad to see African American gone.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: ulmont on March 22, 2013, 09:38:33 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.

OkCupid did a bit on this based on their data:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Ideologue on March 23, 2013, 04:15:20 AM
Quote from: ulmont on March 22, 2013, 09:38:33 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.

OkCupid did a bit on this based on their data:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

QuoteWhite men get more responses. Whatever it is, white males just get more replies from almost every group. We were careful to preselect our data pool so that physical attractiveness (as measured by our site picture-rating utility) was roughly even across all the race/gender slices. For guys, we did likewise with height.

Sometimes I just don't, y'know, feel Hispanic.

QuoteIt's ironic that white guys are worst responders, because as we saw above they in turn get the most replies. That has apparently made them very self-absorbed.

Yeah, it's just like a traffic jam, when you're already late.  It's the good advice, that you just didn't take.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 23, 2013, 06:27:23 AM
QuoteWe were careful to preselect our data pool so that physical attractiveness (as measured by our site picture-rating utility) was roughly even across all the race/gender slices. For guys, we did likewise with height.

WTF MAN
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: ulmont on March 22, 2013, 09:38:33 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 22, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 22, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
That's pretty awful.

Eh I liked it.  If somebody only would consider being with a Latin guy, or whatever, it was to  know that in advance.

I mean sure it is good to weed out the racially challenged but then at the same time only helps to encourage said individuals.

OkCupid did a bit on this based on their data:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

The data is interesting but they are conflating "attraction" with "racism". The fact that someone has a preference in sexual/romantic matters to a person of race X as opposed to race Y doesn't mean that they have a racist attitude. Hence the "schizophrenia" they observe, where people give non-racist answers overall to racially-loaded questions but in their behaviour demonstrate that they really prefer to date people of race X over Y.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: garbon on March 23, 2013, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
The data is interesting but they are conflating "attraction" with "racism". The fact that someone has a preference in sexual/romantic matters to a person of race X as opposed to race Y doesn't mean that they have a racist attitude. Hence the "schizophrenia" they observe, where people give non-racist answers overall to racially-loaded questions but in their behaviour demonstrate that they really prefer to date people of race X over Y.

To be clear as I think I'd brought it up.  I don't really have an issue if 99.9% of the time someone ends up with white dudes (or black ones or asian ones) but with the idea that one can say (or in this case select via some checkboxes) that one will never be interest in a person of race x.  I don't think that's accurate for most people and I don't really like encouraging such racialized conceptions.

Of course, I feel so acutely as someone who gets pre-assigned into various different racial categories by physical appearance.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:31:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 23, 2013, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
The data is interesting but they are conflating "attraction" with "racism". The fact that someone has a preference in sexual/romantic matters to a person of race X as opposed to race Y doesn't mean that they have a racist attitude. Hence the "schizophrenia" they observe, where people give non-racist answers overall to racially-loaded questions but in their behaviour demonstrate that they really prefer to date people of race X over Y.

To be clear as I think I'd brought it up.  I don't really have an issue if 99.9% of the time someone ends up with white dudes (or black ones or asian ones) but with the idea that one can say (or in this case select via some checkboxes) that one will never be interest in a person of race x.  I don't think that's accurate for most people and I don't really like encouraging such racialized conceptions.

Of course, I feel so acutely as someone who gets pre-assigned into various different racial categories by physical appearance.

Naw, that's totally fair. Out and out ruling out race X just strikes me as odd. Even if in general someone prefers race Y over X, only a really hardcore fetishist would literally *never* find anyone of race X attractive. 
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
For example, you may claim you don't prefer Blacks as a race, but how many guys would turn her down?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9MQOsKfzR-0/UTTT16Sum1I/AAAAAAAAGhU/sF88kOPe8UA/s1600/Yityish+Titi+Aynaw.jpg
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: CountDeMoney on March 23, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on March 23, 2013, 12:25:29 PM
Of course, I feel so acutely as someone who gets pre-assigned into various different racial categories by physical appearance.

lol, you can never be pre-assigned, butterfly.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: dps on March 23, 2013, 04:38:42 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
For example, you may claim you don't prefer Blacks as a race, but how many guys would turn her down?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9MQOsKfzR-0/UTTT16Sum1I/AAAAAAAAGhU/sF88kOPe8UA/s1600/Yityish+Titi+Aynaw.jpg

Can't tell from that pic--it gives no idea how big her boobs are.
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: 11B4V on March 23, 2013, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: dps on March 23, 2013, 04:38:42 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
For example, you may claim you don't prefer Blacks as a race, but how many guys would turn her down?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9MQOsKfzR-0/UTTT16Sum1I/AAAAAAAAGhU/sF88kOPe8UA/s1600/Yityish+Titi+Aynaw.jpg

Can't tell from that pic--it gives no idea how big her boobs are.

Nappy hair...pass
Title: Re: What's Wrong With the Term 'Person of Color'
Post by: Caliga on March 23, 2013, 09:01:51 PM
 :hug: