I was following a discussion about who pays when people go on a date. One woman was quite insistent that the man should always pay. Period. Now this lady is a feminist, or says she is. And fairly smart from what I can tell. Her point boiled down to this: The man is showing respect to the woman by offering to use his money to attract her, and the woman is showing trust by allowing him to do this.
Now this may be an attempt to rationalize why she holds this position so she can keep making dudes buy her free meals, and we all know smarter people have higher capability to rationalize.
But, that aside, giving her the benefit of the doubt, how does letting somebody buy you stuff demonstrate trust? Guy or girl, either way.
If you are of the opinion that the man should always pay, is this why, or is there another reason?
Oh, and to pre-emptively derail into a gay thread: On a gay date, the lawyer pays.
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
On a first date I think the man should offer to pay, the women should offer to pay half, and the man should insist on paying all.
On subsequent dates the inviter should pay, whether it's the man or the woman.
I have no problem paying 100% for dates, but I have very specific and finite date-paying-to-scoring-ass CBA models with extremely rigid deadlines that need to be met.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2012, 07:34:00 PM
On a first date I think the man should offer to pay, the women should offer to pay half, and the man should insist on paying all.
That is proper etiquette for both sides.
QuoteOn subsequent dates the inviter should pay, whether it's the man or the woman.
A bit too soon, but then again I like the Seedy approach.
And needless to say, MEN DRIVE :D
I expected to be in poundtown fairly soon.
I don't understand how this is even still a discussion. Whoever invites, pays. It's not that hard.
And the chick is totally rationalizing to get free food.
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
Fear of poison?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2012, 08:33:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
Fear of poison?
They aren't cooking the food.
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
The only thing that I can come up with for this is trusting that the guy won't assume he's getting laid just because he paid for dinner. But that's one hell of a reach, from my perspective.
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 08:36:14 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
The only thing that I can come up with for this is trusting that the guy won't assume he's getting laid just because he paid for dinner. But that's one hell of a reach, from my perspective.
If anything I see that as sign that he expects to get laid if he pays.
My view is that its BS old fashioned sexism that happens to be in the woman's favour (it wasn't all entirely one sided...).
Back in the day it made sense. Men were the ones who went out to work and made lives for themselves whilst women were home-making baby poping machines. Ergo men had the money ergo men should pay.
These days however men and women are equal and both are just as capable of getting jobs and earning money of their own so...makes no sense the man should pay.
A gay friend insists I'm in the wrong on this. He says that since I'm the one who is expecting to shag a girl rather than be the shagee it is therefore my obligation to pay- if he was dating a guy and expecting to bottom then he would want to be paid for but if he was expecting to top then he would pay. How true this is amongst gays in general or if its just him being weird I don't know. Queerguish?
That trust thing is nonsense.
Unless the man is showing trust that the woman isn't a gold digger just out for the free meal?...except men have to pay so even if she is a gold digger he's not putting in any special trust, its just what he is forced to do....
The only logical way buying a meal/drink for someone shows trust IMO is if you're doing 'rounds'- I'll pay for this one because I trust you won't welch out of paying for the next.
Glad I don't date.
Quote from: Tyr on December 19, 2012, 08:45:09 PM
A gay friend insists I'm in the wrong on this. He says that since I'm the one who is expecting to shag a girl rather than be the shagee it is therefore my obligation to pay- if he was dating a guy and expecting to bottom then he would want to be paid for but if he was expecting to top then he would pay. How true this is amongst gays in general or if its just him being weird I don't know. Queerguish?
He seems to be confusing going on a date with prostitution. :D
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 19, 2012, 07:29:05 PM
Now this lady is a feminist, or says she is.
I disagree with her.
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 08:34:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2012, 08:33:44 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
Fear of poison?
They aren't cooking the food.
Fuck if I know, neither of us date many women so we are both sort of out of our element.
As long as she agrees that men should be paid more then women so they can afford these meals then it's all good.
Quote from: HVC on December 19, 2012, 09:15:41 PM
As long as she agrees that men should be paid more then women so they can afford these meals then it's all good.
Either that or she has to take it up the ass.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2012, 08:58:07 PM
Fuck if I know, neither of us date many women so we are both sort of out of our element.
I've been on dinner dates.
So have I.
So then we aren't really out of our element in knowing whether or not you can easily poison someone when you pay for dinner.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 19, 2012, 09:33:17 PM
Quote from: HVC on December 19, 2012, 09:15:41 PM
As long as she agrees that men should be paid more then women so they can afford these meals then it's all good.
Either that or she has to take it up the ass.
oh this girl is definitely high maintenance. You'd be lucky to get a bj let alone anal.
For first dates: if the date turns out well, I'll pay. If I don't like her after dinner, then we'll go Dutch. ;)
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 09:40:30 PM
So then we aren't really out of our element in knowing whether or not you can easily poison someone when you pay for dinner.
I'm saying it's something we don't normally do. Neither you or I typically take women out on dates.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2012, 09:43:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 09:40:30 PM
So then we aren't really out of our element in knowing whether or not you can easily poison someone when you pay for dinner.
I'm saying it's something we don't normally do. Neither you or I typically take women out on dates.
Do you think there is something more specific to women that they would imagine they are being poisoned?
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 08:36:14 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 07:30:53 PM
She's rationalizing. What trust could there be in having someone pay for dinner for you? Trust they won't reach down your throat and try to take the meal back?
The only thing that I can come up with for this is trusting that the guy won't assume he's getting laid just because he paid for dinner. But that's one hell of a reach, from my perspective.
I've been out of the "dating scene" (if you want to call my drunken escapades dates) and whoever pulls the plastic out now it's understood it's all my wife's money and I just a caretaker for it, but why exactly would the man buy dinner without getting laid? That's like buying beer and not drinking it.
Because some men actually ask a girl out to get to know her. I know, novel concept, but it does happen. And interestingly enough, there are a lot of women who don't feel like they should have to have sex to get to know a guy. How bizarre!
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 09:52:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2012, 09:43:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 19, 2012, 09:40:30 PM
So then we aren't really out of our element in knowing whether or not you can easily poison someone when you pay for dinner.
I'm saying it's something we don't normally do. Neither you or I typically take women out on dates.
Do you think there is something more specific to women that they would imagine they are being poisoned?
Possibly. It's the only thing I could think of concerning trust and food.
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 11:37:29 PM
Because some men actually ask a girl out to get to know her. I know, novel concept, but it does happen. And interestingly enough, there are a lot of women who don't feel like they should have to have sex to get to know a guy. How bizarre!
I'm not sure about that. Maybe a man who is a 30 year old virgin and desperate, or perhaps a closet homo, or an insanely socially awkward loser. My experience is you sleep around as much as possible, pick up whatever strange comes your way and then maybe one of them is worth establishing a real relationship with. Certainly worked for me.
Quote from: HVC on December 19, 2012, 09:40:48 PM
oh this girl is definitely high maintenance. You'd be lucky to get a bj let alone anal.
Rather stick it in her mouth anyway.
In Poland, the typical approach to paying (whether on dates or at other occasions) is that everyone broadly pays for himself or herself. I say broadly, as it usually just involves everyone throwing a note or a few vaguely corresponding to the value of what he or she ordered.
You could call it "going Polish".
There are however variations to it:
- if one person is substantially more rich than the other one (especially if the richer one suggested the venue, and especially if it is a date), then he or she should offer to pay - the other person may either accept or offer "going Polish";
- if there are more people (and noone ordered out of line), it is acceptable to offer "going Dutch";
- sometimes people insist on "going Jewish" (the expression of my own :P) and go through the receipt with a pen and a calculator, so that everyone pays exactly for what they ordered - it's annoying.
But there is definitely not an expectation for someone who invites another person to a restaurant to pay (exceptions are things like entertaining your clients and whatnot - but still many clients would insist on paying their share).
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 11:37:29 PM
Because some men actually ask a girl out to get to know her. I know, novel concept, but it does happen. And interestingly enough, there are a lot of women who don't feel like they should have to have sex to get to know a guy. How bizarre!
I'm not sure about that. Maybe a man who is a 30 year old virgin and desperate, or perhaps a closet homo, or an insanely socially awkward loser. My experience is you sleep around as much as possible, pick up whatever strange comes your way and then maybe one of them is worth establishing a real relationship with. Certainly worked for me.
I don't know about closet homos - among gays, the usual approach is that relationship building is something you start doing once you are bored of sex with each other but can still somehow stand each other's presence. :P
Inviter should offer to pay, invitee should offer to pay half, simple as that.
It's only when it gets into "You pay next time" "Err, what next time?" territory it gets awkward.
J.F.C. middle class people over-thinking something. :rolleyes:
Hint it doesn't matter in the scheme of things! :gasp:
Quote from: mongers on December 20, 2012, 07:27:26 AM
J.F.C. middle class people over-thinking something. :rolleyes:
I would think this would be even more important to the lower classes.
Quote from: Valmy on December 20, 2012, 08:58:54 AM
Quote from: mongers on December 20, 2012, 07:27:26 AM
J.F.C. middle class people over-thinking something. :rolleyes:
I would think this would be even more important to the lower classes.
They just pay or don't.
The lower classes are too busy beating the shit out of their date in the parking lot to worry about who pays.
The lawyer pays. That's something Malthus thaught me, actually.
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
The lawyer pays. That's something Malthus thaught me, actually.
It's true. ;)
Actually, I'd have trouble doing anything with some of my friends if I didn't generally offer to pay - either that, or be limited to venues they can afford (shudder).
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
Oh I just made sure to be charming and spoke about being poor student at dinner.
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
Oh I just made sure to be charming and spoke about being poor student at dinner.
you little strumpet, you :D
A few years ago I met a couple of Armenian girls, and somehow this topic came up. They said that in Armenia it was always and everytime the man's responsability to pay for everything, even in non-dating scenarios. I still don't know if they were for real or just trying to pull our leg.
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
The lawyer pays. That's something Malthus thaught me, actually.
It's true. ;)
Actually, I'd have trouble doing anything with some of my friends if I didn't generally offer to pay - either that, or be limited to venues they can afford (shudder).
I know. I guess I just know the wrong people, since my friends have always been poorer than me, in general. :P
When I go out with D., I usually pay the bill but he pays the tip. :P
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
That's acceptable :)
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 11:37:29 PM
Because some men actually ask a girl out to get to know her. I know, novel concept, but it does happen. And interestingly enough, there are a lot of women who don't feel like they should have to have sex to get to know a guy. How bizarre!
I'm not sure about that. Maybe a man who is a 30 year old virgin and desperate, or perhaps a closet homo, or an insanely socially awkward loser. My experience is you sleep around as much as possible, pick up whatever strange comes your way and then maybe one of them is worth establishing a real relationship with. Certainly worked for me.
You read too many letters to Playboy/Penthouse in your youth and now you are having difficulty separating your fantasy life from reality.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
The lawyer pays. That's something Malthus thaught me, actually.
:lol:
Quote from: derspiess on December 20, 2012, 10:44:24 AM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
That's acceptable :)
:hug:
Quote from: HVC on December 20, 2012, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
Oh I just made sure to be charming and spoke about being poor student at dinner.
you little strumpet, you :D
He's capable of being charming when he wants to be? But only chooses to when he's poor? :hmm:
Maybe we should impoverish him. :menace:
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
The lawyer pays. That's something Malthus thaught me, actually.
It's true. ;)
Actually, I'd have trouble doing anything with some of my friends if I didn't generally offer to pay - either that, or be limited to venues they can afford (shudder).
I know. I guess I just know the wrong people, since my friends have always been poorer than me, in general. :P
It can be a problem - if your friends are at a different place financially than you. You don't want to make them feel like parasites, nor do you want to be restricted to only doing stuff they can afford.
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 12:32:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 20, 2012, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 20, 2012, 09:39:40 AM
The lawyer pays. That's something Malthus thaught me, actually.
It's true. ;)
Actually, I'd have trouble doing anything with some of my friends if I didn't generally offer to pay - either that, or be limited to venues they can afford (shudder).
I know. I guess I just know the wrong people, since my friends have always been poorer than me, in general. :P
It can be a problem - if your friends are at a different place financially than you. You don't want to make them feel like parasites, nor do you want to be restricted to only doing stuff they can afford.
Meh, I've never had that problem. Whenever I meet up with friends from back in the day I happily pay and they happily let me pay. I also pay for drinks at Languish meets and I have yet to encounter a single complaint.
It's weird being in oil country. When I go and hang out with, say, my in-laws, it's true I'm the only lawyer (really only one with any advanced education). But they all make more than me anyways working in the patch. :unsure:
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:17:19 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 11:37:29 PM
Because some men actually ask a girl out to get to know her. I know, novel concept, but it does happen. And interestingly enough, there are a lot of women who don't feel like they should have to have sex to get to know a guy. How bizarre!
I'm not sure about that. Maybe a man who is a 30 year old virgin and desperate, or perhaps a closet homo, or an insanely socially awkward loser. My experience is you sleep around as much as possible, pick up whatever strange comes your way and then maybe one of them is worth establishing a real relationship with. Certainly worked for me.
You read too many letters to Playboy/Penthouse in your youth and now you are having difficulty separating your fantasy life from reality.
I'm guessing you don't get out much if you think sleeping around with women from bars is Penthouse Forum material for someone in their youth. I didn't claim I was snorting coke off movie stars or banging 10 different women a week.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:23:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:17:19 PM
You read too many letters to Playboy/Penthouse in your youth and now you are having difficulty separating your fantasy life from reality.
I'm guessing you don't get out much if you think sleeping around with women from bars is Penthouse Forum material for someone in their youth. I didn't claim I was snorting coke off movie stars or banging 10 different women a week.
:lol:
I concur with Otto's approach on the judicious use of saturation bombing early and often, if only to get it all out of your system.
It was a total blur of ass for me from age 18 to 26...but it drop off precipitously after that, mainly because I was worn out.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 20, 2012, 01:23:26 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:17:19 PM
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 19, 2012, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: merithyn on December 19, 2012, 11:37:29 PM
Because some men actually ask a girl out to get to know her. I know, novel concept, but it does happen. And interestingly enough, there are a lot of women who don't feel like they should have to have sex to get to know a guy. How bizarre!
I'm not sure about that. Maybe a man who is a 30 year old virgin and desperate, or perhaps a closet homo, or an insanely socially awkward loser. My experience is you sleep around as much as possible, pick up whatever strange comes your way and then maybe one of them is worth establishing a real relationship with. Certainly worked for me.
You read too many letters to Playboy/Penthouse in your youth and now you are having difficulty separating your fantasy life from reality.
I'm guessing you don't get out much if you think sleeping around with women from bars is Penthouse Forum material for someone in their youth. I didn't claim I was snorting coke off movie stars or banging 10 different women a week.
No, I think that guys who need to pick up drunk girls in bars to have sex are a bit pathetic, especially if they reveal that is the method they came to meet their wife. :P
Quote from: Malthus on December 20, 2012, 12:29:56 PM
Quote from: HVC on December 20, 2012, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
I've never seen this as much of an issue - except when I was poor and couldn't afford to even pay for myself!
That's when I cooked at home for a date, instead of going out. :)
Oh I just made sure to be charming and spoke about being poor student at dinner.
you little strumpet, you :D
He's capable of being charming when he wants to be? But only chooses to when he's poor? :hmm:
Maybe we should impoverish him. :menace:
:D
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 01:28:14 PM
No, I think that guys who need to pick up drunk girls in bars to have sex are a bit pathetic, especially if they reveal that is the method they came to meet their wife. :P
I was done around 26ish myself like CdM (more like 27ish for me), to be honest no one dated in my social group, seriously. I did not have any friends I grew up with or who became friends of mine in the 20s who went on the popular conception of a "date" where you ask someone out and "screen them" through a dinner together or a series of dinners.
I don't make a value judgment about doing that versus not doing that in truth, it just wasn't part of my social group. Now, the friends I have that are my age and never married, they now go on more formal dates. But in my peer group
everyone met their SOs through either hook ups at parties or hook ups at bars (note I didn't only pick up women at bars, I actually met my wife at a party a friend had.) Those hook ups sometimes lead to follow up dates, but no one I know started a relationship in their 20s by going on a formal date with someone they hadn't already banged.
I also am guessing you don't get out much if you think you only meet passed out drunk girls at bars. There is a big difference between picking up a girl who is a few hours from a stomach pump versus two people meeting with the social lubricant.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 01:28:14 PM
No, I think that guys who need to pick up drunk girls in bars to have sex are a bit pathetic, especially if they reveal that is the method they came to meet their wife. :P
Who said need, Mr. Judgmental?
Quote from: garbon on December 20, 2012, 01:47:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 01:28:14 PM
No, I think that guys who need to pick up drunk girls in bars to have sex are a bit pathetic, especially if they reveal that is the method they came to meet their wife. :P
Who said need, Mr. Judgmental?
Fair enough. If he was doing it for fun that is even more pathetic.
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 02:56:50 PM
Fair enough. If he was doing it for fun that is even more pathetic.
I think you're missing what he's saying. The Euros would get this, though, as it's how they still do things. It was pretty much the same for me, too, in a way, but we also might go on "formal" dates with someone we met in class/work.
It was pretty common for all of us to go to a bar to hang out, talk, dance, drink, play pool, etc. It wasn't unusual to meet someone that you liked, talk a bit. If you found that you had a good bit in common beyond the physical attraction, you might meet up again another night at the bar which might end up in a hook up. If you still liked each other, then you might go out on a date.
It was pretty much the culture during my late teens/early twenties. There was nothing seedy about it (no offense, CdM). It's just how you got to know people.
Quote from: merithyn on December 20, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
I think you're missing what he's saying.
I think he's just being CC. :secret:
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 20, 2012, 12:49:09 PM
Meh, I've never had that problem. Whenever I meet up with friends from back in the day I happily pay and they happily let me pay. I also pay for drinks at Languish meets and I have yet to encounter a single complaint.
Maybe your friends are different in attitude. Some of mine used to feel uneasy about it, though like you of course I happily pay.
I'd sometimes buy a pizza to share after fucking back in the day. That counts as a date right?
Quote from: Legbiter on December 20, 2012, 06:57:50 PM
I'd sometimes buy a pizza to share after fucking back in the day. That counts as a date right?
I think if you want to get super technical it's the part before the fucking that's the date.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
I think if you want to get super technical it's the part before the fucking that's the date.
Oh, I see. :(
Then by that definition I've only had one date in my life.
She talked incessantly about her ex, delivered these weird conversational putdowns as a some sort of test every once in a while and only took a shine to me when I abruptly hung up on her when she called me a week later. Apparently she was baffled by the cold shoulder.
She later tried to connect again by mentioning that she'd been talking to my friend. :lol:
Quote from: Legbiter on December 20, 2012, 07:31:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
I think if you want to get super technical it's the part before the fucking that's the date.
Oh, I see. :(
Then by that definition I've only had one date in my life.
She talked incessantly about her ex, delivered these weird conversational putdowns as a some sort of test every once in a while and only took a shine to me when I abruptly hung up on her when she called me a week later. Apparently she was baffled by the cold shoulder.
She later tried to connect again by mentioning that she'd been talking to my friend. :lol:
Hello, mayor of Crazytown.
At our meet, CdM insisted on paying, and that still gnaws at my soul. :mad:
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 20, 2012, 07:43:12 PM
At our meet, CdM insisted on paying, and that still gnaws at my soul. :mad:
Did you put out?
Hell no. I am a gentleman, sir.
He most certainly is.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 20, 2012, 07:39:22 PMHello, mayor of Crazytown.
Truth be told her intervention was crucial in killing off my inner pedestalizing white knight and ending a dry spell in that formative year.