I was at a pub with some friends yesterday. An event occured which knocked me flat on my arse (metaphorically).
A friend of mine just called over a cuteish bar girl and said he wanted to date her and could he have her number. She gave him it.
Of course this seems to be the easy part. If some random person phones you then...so what? And the whole dance of fakery of a date....that part does not seem pleasant. And then there's the sexism of a guy having to pay for it all- its not that I'm cheap, its the principle which just seems wrong.
As I've said a million times before dating is a thoroughly alien concept to me. Europeans in general tend not do it I believe, people I know back in Europe certainly don't. I only know of it through American TV and it seems to be thoroughly unpleasant.
Nonetheless...it increasingly seems Japan follows the American way of things and I might have no choice but to attempt this dating thing.
So. Explain it to me. Where is American TV right and where does it give an incorrect impression? How does it work to have the initial impulse towards a relationship be based purely on physical attraction?
Just dating - huh?
Isn't "date" (especially in a set up like this) a code word for a quickie?
Quote from: Tyr on July 09, 2012, 02:53:29 AM
and then there's the sexism of a guy having to pay for it all- its not that I'm cheap, its the principle which just seems wrong.
no, you're just cheap Mr. Candy Man :P
It's not really a difficult concept. On the face of it dating is just planning meetings really. At the start it's formaliac (dinner and a movie, etc). Then as you figure out what each party likes you can start doing different things (parks, museums, bars, whatever). Soon you're in a relationship and you can stop doing all that boring stuff :lol:
Also your comment about "initial impulse towards a relationship be based purely on physical attraction" confuses me. What do you base your initial attraction towards someone on?
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 02:57:34 AM
Isn't "date" (especially in a set up like this) a code word for a quickie?
No. If both want a quickie then they just leave the bar together.
You forget Marti is a homosexual. They are led by their wanton lustful impulses.
You see there is a radioactive Isotope of Carbon that is absorbed in plants (and then eaten by animals), that is ideal for dating. It's pretty rare, but very stable and decays at a fixed rate. Scientists use that to date objects that fall within the historical record.
Quote from: HVC on July 09, 2012, 03:13:39 AM
no, you're just cheap Mr. Candy Man :P
Mr. Candy man? :unsure:
But seriously, it is the principle. The idea that the man has to pay...its really putting the woman on a pedestal and saying the man is the one who wants her from the get go, it should be a mutual thing. And the potential for women to just go on dates for free stuff looms large. Its just outdated, yet like much positive sexism remains.
QuoteAlso your comment about "initial impulse towards a relationship be based purely on physical attraction" confuses me. What do you base your initial attraction towards someone on?
There has to be some degree of physical attraction of course (or supreme desperation/inebriation) but generally you get to know a fair bit about someone before you get near a planned just the two of you stage.
With a date though it seems to be "Oh, look, pretty girl, hey, whats your number?"
Quote from: Tyr on July 09, 2012, 06:11:16 AM
With a date though it seems to be "Oh, look, pretty girl, hey, whats your number?"
There are a number of ways to arrive at a date other than asking a pretty girl in a bar for her number.
Quote from: katmai on July 09, 2012, 03:26:07 AM
You forget Marti is a homosexual. They are led by their wanton lustful impulses.
Fucking fags have it so easy.
Ok I do not understand what exactly you are talking about. In Europe you never spend any one-on-one time with people you want to have sex with? You never do things together? You don't interact without your best bud, mother, father, sister, and brother along for the ride?
Quotebut generally you get to know a fair bit about someone before you get near a planned just the two of you stage.
And you are supposed to do this how? Spying on them? Dating is this: you get together and talk and see if you connect.
QuoteIts just outdated, yet like much positive sexism remains.
So don't pay then. Or only do inexpensive things for dates.
I see a thread...in our future...filled with page after page of...wait, it's clearing up now...yes...filled with page after page of "zomg y doan gurls like me waht's it all about whaaa woe is me dating is hard and hurts mah brain" posts.
I'm English and I don't have a clue what Tyr is on about.
People go on dates everywhere in the western world. They have done for decades. If it helps Tyr "dating" is the same as "going out with".
I (think) I can see where he's coming from. If I'm going out with a girl, chances are I've already shoved my tongue down her throat at a pub and walked away without having my head smashed in with her purse.
That or any other unequivocal sign that this is going somewhere.
I have never experienced the whole 'lets meet this girl I know fuck all about and find out if we're soulmates' thing you see in movies/shows. But I know people who do (mostly older people through online sites).
Do it the British way. Get drunk, wake up with a new number on your phone, ask your friends of she was a minger then phone or not as appropriate.
I didn't know you guys had rights on that one. :lol:
Quotedo it the British. Get drunk, wake up with a new number on your phone, ask your friends of she was a minger then phone or not as appropriate.
Sadly not really an option outside of the scummier parts of Tokyo with its lowest of denizens.
Quote from: Iormlund on July 09, 2012, 08:21:19 AM
I (think) I can see where he's coming from. If I'm going out with a girl, chances are I've already shoved my tongue down her throat at a pub and walked away without having my head smashed in with her purse.
That or any other unequivocal sign that this is going somewhere.
I have never experienced the whole 'lets meet this girl I know fuck all about and find out if we're soulmates' thing you see in movies/shows. But I know people who do (mostly older people through online sites).
Yeah, pretty much. The whole asking strangers on a date thing is just weird and alien. You're either already quasi-an-item with somebody having shagged (ortaken major steps in that direction) or its just people who know each other and have hung out as part of larger groups many times before happening to be doing something only the two of them were free for- any mutual interest there may be being left unsaid so things don't get all fake and weird.
So, in Europe, do you just ask people if they wanna fuck? Awesome, and I approve.
I am with you on the paying thing. Holy Christ, am I. :angry:
Quote from: Iormlund on July 09, 2012, 08:21:19 AM
I (think) I can see where he's coming from. If I'm going out with a girl, chances are I've already shoved my tongue down her throat at a pub and walked away without having my head smashed in with her purse.
That or any other unequivocal sign that this is going somewhere.
I have never experienced the whole 'lets meet this girl I know fuck all about and find out if we're soulmates' thing you see in movies/shows. But I know people who do (mostly older people through online sites).
Yeah if you are working alot when are you going to go to bars and shove tongues down people's throats? And what if you want to meet people who do not frequent bars? And unless you get lucky enough to have an office full of young single people what else are you going to do? That is when you date people you may not know really well of have never made out with before.
I mean if you are just out meeting potential sexual partners all the time that is awesome. But even then it is still dating. There is nothing at all in dating that says you have not already made out or already started a connection at a party or something. I certainly had dates like that. It sorta seems like the reputation is blind dates are the only sorts of dates Americans go on or something and that, at least before the age of the internet, was by far the exception. Usually people met in a bar or at an activity and had chemistry before they actually dated just like it seems you do. Now with lots of internet dating sites blind dating is more common but that is true everywhere.
But yeah having a date is just going out. People have 'date night' with their spouse of 30 years for Godsake.
TV only suggested dating was how you met people because they only had the guest star for one episode.
Tyr. Use. The. God. Damn. Internet.
Valmy broke that shit down.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 09, 2012, 11:41:55 AM
Valmy broke that shit down.
I think Euros have started about 10 threads on this topic. I am really starting to master my talking points :P
Then there is another question whether our entire model of finding a partner/relationship is not fucked up to begin with.
Consider how you become friends with someone - you don't go out to meet people with an objective of "finding a friend" usually - rather the friendship finds you by growing organically. That we use this method to find a partner (rather than letting it happen the same way we become friends with people) is rather silly, don't you think?
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
People of the opposite sex? Yes. Single people I was interested in of the opposite sex? That was alot rarer. Single people of the opposite sex who were looking for a partner at that time and were also interested in me? That would happen only once or twice a year if I am not actively seeking them out. Then you find out they do not want kids and you do, they do not want a long term relationship but you do, they are religious and only want to have sex once we are married, they are Dallas Cowboys fans...blah blah blah.
The internet was so much better because they would say all that shit up front.
Quote from: katmai on July 09, 2012, 03:26:07 AM
You forget Marti is a homosexual. They are led by their wanton lustful impulses.
:huh:
Then a homosexual would just do what Yi said. You wouldn't need to get a number to arrange for sex.
I had a blind date this weekend. It was surprisingly quite good.
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 12:11:45 PM
I had a blind date this weekend. It was surprisingly quite good.
Who went down on whom first?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 12:11:45 PM
I had a blind date this weekend. It was surprisingly quite good.
Who went down on whom first?
You'd be proud, Mama. All above board.
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 01:08:56 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 12:11:45 PM
I had a blind date this weekend. It was surprisingly quite good.
Who went down on whom first?
You'd be proud, Mama. All above board.
Actually, I'm rather disappointed. :P
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2012, 01:10:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 01:08:56 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 09, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 12:11:45 PM
I had a blind date this weekend. It was surprisingly quite good.
Who went down on whom first?
You'd be proud, Mama. All above board.
Actually, I'm rather disappointed. :P
I probably won't see him again. :P
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 12:11:17 PM
Quote from: katmai on July 09, 2012, 03:26:07 AM
You forget Marti is a homosexual. They are led by their wanton lustful impulses.
:huh:
Then a homosexual would just do what Yi said. You wouldn't need to get a number to arrange for sex.
:huh:
Quote from: katmai on July 09, 2012, 01:16:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 12:11:17 PM
Quote from: katmai on July 09, 2012, 03:26:07 AM
You forget Marti is a homosexual. They are led by their wanton lustful impulses.
:huh:
Then a homosexual would just do what Yi said. You wouldn't need to get a number to arrange for sex.
:huh:
I think I misunderstood. No, that's not what we use the term date for.
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2012, 11:52:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
People of the opposite sex? Yes. Single people I was interested in of the opposite sex? That was alot rarer. Single people of the opposite sex who were looking for a partner at that time and were also interested in me? That would happen only once or twice a year if I am not actively seeking them out. Then you find out they do not want kids and you do, they do not want a long term relationship but you do, they are religious and only want to have sex once we are married, they are Dallas Cowboys fans...blah blah blah.
The internet was so much better because they would say all that shit up front.
The whole "looking for a partner" part is what is perhaps our falling as a culture - why do we have to be looking for a partner and not just let the stuff happen organically?
Like, you find a woman, you become friends and then go fuck?
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2012, 11:52:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
People of the opposite sex? Yes. Single people I was interested in of the opposite sex? That was alot rarer. Single people of the opposite sex who were looking for a partner at that time and were also interested in me? That would happen only once or twice a year if I am not actively seeking them out. Then you find out they do not want kids and you do, they do not want a long term relationship but you do, they are religious and only want to have sex once we are married, they are Dallas Cowboys fans...blah blah blah.
The internet was so much better because they would say all that shit up front.
The whole "looking for a partner" part is what is perhaps our falling as a culture - why do we have to be looking for a partner and not just let the stuff happen organically?
Because often organically one doesn't find someone? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2012, 11:52:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
People of the opposite sex? Yes. Single people I was interested in of the opposite sex? That was alot rarer. Single people of the opposite sex who were looking for a partner at that time and were also interested in me? That would happen only once or twice a year if I am not actively seeking them out. Then you find out they do not want kids and you do, they do not want a long term relationship but you do, they are religious and only want to have sex once we are married, they are Dallas Cowboys fans...blah blah blah.
The internet was so much better because they would say all that shit up front.
The whole "looking for a partner" part is what is perhaps our falling as a culture - why do we have to be looking for a partner and not just let the stuff happen organically?
Because often organically one doesn't find someone? :huh:
Perhaps then we are not meant to find someone if we can't find them organically? I am just saying that there seems to be a pressure to be "in a relationship" - whereas relationships should just happen to us.
I just question the whole concept of someone who wants to be in a relationship with a person, as opposed to finding a person you want to be in a relationship with, if you know what I mean.
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Because often organically one doesn't find someone? :huh:
This....plus I don't fuck my friends or coworkers (or second cousins and other family distantly related enough to be socially acceptable sexual partners but close enough to know my other relatives). That has drama potential and drama is what I don't do. I vastly preferred it when we had no connections at all. If it doesn't work out I never want to see her again.
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 01:58:51 PM
Perhaps then we are not meant to find someone if we can't find them organically? I am just saying that there seems to be a pressure to be "in a relationship" - whereas relationships should just happen to us.
I just question the whole concept of someone who wants to be in a relationship with a person, as opposed to finding a person you want to be in a relationship with, if you know what I mean.
No, I don't know what you mean. I don't see why it is a problem if someone actively seeks a partner rather than passively waiting on the whims of the universe.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 09, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
So, in Europe, do you just ask people if they wanna fuck? Awesome, and I approve.
I'm heading to Europe soon (after the bar exam). I will have to try that method out and report back. :bowler:
Quote from: stjaba on July 09, 2012, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 09, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
So, in Europe, do you just ask people if they wanna fuck? Awesome, and I approve.
I'm heading to Europe soon (after the bar exam). I will have to try that method out and report back. :bowler:
I'll look out for the headlines :P
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
Then there is another question whether our entire model of finding a partner/relationship is not fucked up to begin with.
Consider how you become friends with someone - you don't go out to meet people with an objective of "finding a friend" usually - rather the friendship finds you by growing organically. That we use this method to find a partner (rather than letting it happen the same way we become friends with people) is rather silly, don't you think?
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
This is situational. In hot-houses like university it is (relatively) very easy to meet single people around your own age without attachments or conflicts of interest interested in sex and relationships. In the work world following university, much less so.
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 09, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2012, 11:52:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 09, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
(This may be slightly different for gay people as the chances of meeting a potential partner outside of gay bars/gay websites are much smaller, but for straight people, surely you meet enough people of the opposite sex not to need to actually "date" to find a mate?)
People of the opposite sex? Yes. Single people I was interested in of the opposite sex? That was alot rarer. Single people of the opposite sex who were looking for a partner at that time and were also interested in me? That would happen only once or twice a year if I am not actively seeking them out. Then you find out they do not want kids and you do, they do not want a long term relationship but you do, they are religious and only want to have sex once we are married, they are Dallas Cowboys fans...blah blah blah.
The internet was so much better because they would say all that shit up front.
The whole "looking for a partner" part is what is perhaps our falling as a culture - why do we have to be looking for a partner and not just let the stuff happen organically?
Because often organically one doesn't find someone? :huh:
Perhaps then we are not meant to find someone if we can't find them organically? I am just saying that there seems to be a pressure to be "in a relationship" - whereas relationships should just happen to us.
Maybe some people think that just waiting around for good things to happen to them isn't the best plan. To become a lawyer, did you just hang out at a bar, hope someone would come along and just hand you a law degree, and then someone from a law firm would just come along and offer you a position? Well, maybe it works like that in Poland, but in most places, the good jobs end up going to those who take a proactive approach to obtaining them. Why should romantic relationships be any different?
QuoteYeah if you are working alot when are you going to go to bars and shove tongues down people's throats? And what if you want to meet people who do not frequent bars?
Another troublesome cultural issue with meeting people.
Back home the only people who don't go to pubs are anti-social freaks.
Here...they don't do the bar thing so much.
So dating, how does it actually work then?
The image I have is altogether negative. The man and the woman dress up as nice as they can and try to present themselves in the best possible light. Its all about lying and covering up your foibles whilst trying to trick your 'opponent' (it does seem that way) into letting slip with theirs. It just seems all so woefully fake.
Quote from: Tyr on July 09, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
QuoteYeah if you are working alot when are you going to go to bars and shove tongues down people's throats? And what if you want to meet people who do not frequent bars?
Another troublesome cultural issue with meeting people.
Back home the only people who don't go to pubs are anti-social freaks.
Here...they don't do the bar thing so much.
So dating, how does it actually work then?
The image I have is altogether negative. The man and the woman dress up as nice as they can and try to present themselves in the best possible light. Its all about lying and covering up your foibles whilst trying to trick your 'opponent' (it does seem that way) into letting slip with theirs. It just seems all so woefully fake.
You seem so woefully stupid.
Look, it's simple. If there's a girl you like, and neither of you have any other attachments (or one or both of you do, but don't care), you ask her out to get a drink, or a meal, or to go see a movie or sporting event, or a museum, or whatever. And then you go from there. Maybe you decide you don't want to spend any more time one-on-one with her, and as soon as the date ends, you drop her off at her place. Maybe you fuck her and never call again. Maybe you start dating her on a regular basis. Or maybe you decide that she's fun to have a meal with or go to a movie with, but isn't right for you for anything else, so you just become friends (the least common outcome, probably, but still a possibility). What the hell is so hard to understand about any of this?
Also, there seems to be an assumption in this thread that a person you ask out on a date is someone you haven't met before. That does happen, but it's a lot more common in fiction than in real life. Most of the time, you're asking out someone that you already know (though not necessarily someone you know well)--a neighbor, a co-worker (not recommended!), a friend of your sister, the girl who rings your purchase up a lot at the grocery store, etc.
Quote from: Tyr on July 09, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
So dating, how does it actually work then?
The image I have is altogether negative. The man and the woman dress up as nice as they can and try to present themselves in the best possible light. Its all about lying and covering up your foibles whilst trying to trick your 'opponent' (it does seem that way) into letting slip with theirs. It just seems all so woefully fake.
Playing the dating game like that, "dress nice and meal" thing, is not cost-effective. It often ends up like a job interview, the girl (and the guy) is either under pressure because it's a date and she's not sure she even likes the guy, or she'll be enjoying the meal with no intention of putting out in the end. Plus there's the whole "who pays the bill" conendrum. In other words, it's a fool's mate.
Really, what more simple that ask her out for a coffee, or a drink, or a pic-nic a Sunday afternoon? The guy can afford to pay without ruining himself, there's no pressure, and the girl (and you) are more likely to open up and have fun. Plus, the girl's not dumb: if she accepts to follow the guy alone and spend time alone with him so soon odds are good it's gonna end in the sack unless he mucks it up or wusses out.
Yes, dating, seducing, approaching people, making contacts, etc, is all about marketing oneself to others, and them to you. Deal with it.The sooner you can, the faster you can move on. We are all fakes at different degrees, you included, because we have to present a show to everyone when we are being social, a better version of ourselves, and sell ourselves as such. We all present a mask in the real world, otherwise it'd never function. We all have weaknesses, quirks, bad habits, doubts, etc. But people don't like weakness, if you show weakness you will be treated as suchunless you find a person you can open up without fearing of being judged.
Dating in Japan /= Dating in West.
Remember that. Compared to where you are I was out in the sticks so my conservative neighbors certainly viewed this thing differently. Where you are is still in the out in the sticks, but they probably don't have the Nagaoka attitude to inter-racial dating (or was it I just scared them being 194 cm and 125 kg). But still, this is dating, it has a purpose and everybody knows what the purpose is.
Some of you think too goddamned much.
Quote from: Viking on July 09, 2012, 08:49:46 PM
Dating in Japan /= Dating in West.
Still not that hard though. Go out and get coffee together - if you can't be charming and social for that, it's not going anywhere unless she wants a foreigner fuck-buddy. Another option is to get a cheap dinner, with a beer or other alcohol, and maybe go to karaoke. Sing her a romantic love song and make out.
Quote from: dps on July 09, 2012, 06:21:17 PMMaybe some people think that just waiting around for good things to happen to them isn't the best plan. To become a lawyer, did you just hang out at a bar, hope someone would come along and just hand you a law degree, and then someone from a law firm would just come along and offer you a position? Well, maybe it works like that in Poland, but in most places, the good jobs end up going to those who take a proactive approach to obtaining them. Why should romantic relationships be any different?
I think you touch the key issue with the mentality here.
Having a gainful employment is a value in itself - something you are supposed to have. So you do need to go out and try to find the job/education rather than waiting for it to happen to you (or not).
And that's where I think the difference lies. Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people). We are taught by the popular culture that being in a relationship is a value in itself, and if you aren't in a relationship then there is something wrong with you and you should try to fix it. Instead, we should teach people that being in a relationship with someone, anyone, should not be a goal, but rather something that happens to you (or not).
I guess in a way it's similar to my position about having kids - people do a lot of stuff because they think like they are supposed to do them at a certain age (our culture teaches you that if you are not married by, say, 30, and do not have children by, say, 35, you are a loser or at least missing out on something important in your life), and just go through the motions without thinking for themselves.
See, Marti, once in a while you can actually be a lucid, cogent contributor with a viable point to be made.
Unfortunately for the rest of us, you're usually you're just a big shitcock semen stain.
No it is still stupid. He's just railing against majority values and notice how he threw the heterophobia in by talking about kids again. I don't think Balmy is particularly codependent because he actively found someone to be with. To hear Matti tell it though, he was indoctrinated!
Besides you are only a fan as you tabor the die alone, face eaten by cats model.
Besides wtf? I think I might like a girlfriend. Oh I know, I'll just twiddle my thumbs and hope one appears.
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2012, 07:41:17 AM
Besides you are only a fan as you tabor the die alone, face eaten by cats model.
You make it sound like a bad thing.
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
I think you touch the key issue with the mentality here.
Having a gainful employment is a value in itself - something you are supposed to have. So you do need to go out and try to find the job/education rather than waiting for it to happen to you (or not).
And that's where I think the difference lies. Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people). We are taught by the popular culture that being in a relationship is a value in itself, and if you aren't in a relationship then there is something wrong with you and you should try to fix it. Instead, we should teach people that being in a relationship with someone, anyone, should not be a goal, but rather something that happens to you (or not).
I guess in a way it's similar to my position about having kids - people do a lot of stuff because they think like they are supposed to do them at a certain age (our culture teaches you that if you are not married by, say, 30, and do not have children by, say, 35, you are a loser or at least missing out on something important in your life), and just go through the motions without thinking for themselves.
Most people enjoy companionship and sex, and feel lonely and frustrated if they do not have these things in their lives. This makes obtaining a significant other a "goal", not some sort of social groupthink. Though being seen and pitied by others as an unlovable loner plays its part in making those who are already lonely and frustrated because they lack companionship and sex extra-specially unhappy.
This is just how we are wired as a social species. There are exceptions, but in general people are not happy to be alone. This may at times inspire them to settle unwisely of course, but that is just why some sort of "dating" is important - you don't want loneliness and frustration to inspire you to simply setle on the person who just happens to drift into your life. What are the chances that they are a good match for you? Isn't it better to go activly looking and comparing? That way, at the very least you will look over a larger pool of people.
Personally, I'm all in favour of some sort of romance and spontenaity in dating. I don't really like the cattle-call aspects of modern online dating, because it isn't to my mind at least very romantic. I was lucky enough in meeting my own wife in a romantic manner, for which I am happy. Why do I like romance? Well, I guess because it creates what may be a necessary illusion that we are special, not just advanced animals looking for our social/economic/physical match (even if the latter is probably true ;) ). But the cattle-call is better than simply waiting for romantic lighning to strike.
Quote from: Malthus on July 10, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
But the cattle-call is better than simply waiting for romantic lighning to strike.
The Cattle-call is what you do when you are waiting around. Personally I think meeting the love of your life is pretty romantic no matter how you do it.
'I was there getting my electric toothbrush surgically removed again and then the most beautiful anesthesiologist in the world walked in the door'
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people).
I guess I just think if you want something you should put effort into getting it. I guess I have never heard how being pro-active and powerful in your life makes you unhappy and sitting around being passive is the true path to happiness before.
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people).
I guess I just think if you want something you should put effort into getting it. I guess I have never heard how being pro-active and powerful in your life makes you unhappy and sitting around being passive is the true path to happiness before.
:D
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people).
I guess I just think if you want something you should put effort into getting it.
But why do you want to be in a relationship, period? There is such a concept of people mistaking being in love with another person, and instead are in love with being in love. That's the same thing.
But I guess I don't feel like getting into another discussion of this sort. It's tedious and too many people, when forced to confront their own choices, tend to be very defensive.
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:06:55 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 10, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
But the cattle-call is better than simply waiting for romantic lighning to strike.
The Cattle-call is what you do when you are waiting around. Personally I think meeting the love of your life is pretty romantic no matter how you do it.
Yeah, a friend of my sister's went head-over-heels over the girl that ass-ended his Beemer in a supermarket parking lot with her hoopdie Civic. A story straight out of a bad movie script.
He hit the fucking lotto, she's smoking hot as shit, well out of his league in a Pepsi Challenge--but he's a six-figure law associate, so make of that what you will.
So there's lightning, and then there's Jewish lightning.
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:12:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people).
I guess I just think if you want something you should put effort into getting it.
But why do you want to be in a relationship, period? There is such a concept of people mistaking being in love with another person, and instead are in love with being in love. That's the same thing.
But I guess I don't feel like getting into another discussion of this sort. It's tedious and too many people, when forced to confront their own choices, tend to be very defensive.
I don't really understand this considering that you are the one getting cats with your "partner".
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 10, 2012, 07:56:32 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2012, 07:41:17 AM
Besides you are only a fan as you tabor the die alone, face eaten by cats model.
You make it sound like a bad thing.
That's because it is. Also I like how the kindle took my rush to spell favor and left me with tabor. :D
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:06:55 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 10, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
But the cattle-call is better than simply waiting for romantic lighning to strike.
The Cattle-call is what you do when you are waiting around. Personally I think meeting the love of your life is pretty romantic no matter how you do it.
'I was there getting my electric toothbrush surgically removed again and then the most beautiful anesthesiologist in the world walked in the door'
Come, now, meeting up at the hospital would make a good story, especially if it featured inappropriate insertions. :D
What I mean by "not romantic" is the more typical "I filled out an internet profile form, sort of like a resume only for relationships not jobs, and I got some hits, and s/he was the best of the lot - the interview/date went really well" kinda thing.
Sure, if it results in a great relationship, who cares. I'd rather go through that than sit around twiddling my thumbs and waiting for my cats to eat my face. I am though glad I didn't have to go through that process - I'd find it a trifle alienating. Though I realize most people do it that way now.
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2012, 08:13:36 AM
I don't really understand this considering that you are the one getting cats with your "partner".
They're each getting a cat, so they can share in pseudo-parenting and have cat play dates.
Pretty fucking silly, but hey. At least the cats can't write checks.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 10, 2012, 08:16:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2012, 08:13:36 AM
I don't really understand this considering that you are the one getting cats with your "partner".
They're each getting a cat, so they can share in pseudo-parenting and have cat play dates.
Pretty fucking silly, but hey. At least the cats can't write checks.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I love you.
Quote from: garbon on July 10, 2012, 08:13:36 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:12:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people).
I guess I just think if you want something you should put effort into getting it.
But why do you want to be in a relationship, period? There is such a concept of people mistaking being in love with another person, and instead are in love with being in love. That's the same thing.
But I guess I don't feel like getting into another discussion of this sort. It's tedious and too many people, when forced to confront their own choices, tend to be very defensive.
I don't really understand this considering that you are the one getting cats with your "partner".
I'm doing this because it seems like a good idea at the time. This is the longest/most serious relationship I have ever been in, and I'm enjoying this as an experience, noting both the advantages and the disadvantages compared to being alone (fortunately we do not live together, as that would probably be unbearable). There's nothing more and nothing less to it.
I can very well imagine myself being alone (I have been for the large part of my 20s) and I don't have a need to always be (or try to be) in a relationship as such.
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:12:07 AM
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people).
I guess I just think if you want something you should put effort into getting it.
But why do you want to be in a relationship, period? There is such a concept of people mistaking being in love with another person, and instead are in love with being in love. That's the same thing.
But I guess I don't feel like getting into another discussion of this sort. It's tedious and too many people, when forced to confront their own choices, tend to be very defensive.
I don't know I just always did. I wanted long term love and commitment and all that shit practically from the moment I hit puberty. I think it is because I enjoy emotional intimacy and family so much.
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
But I can very well imagine myself being alone
Yeah I never had any interest at all in being alone. I would rather gouge out my eyes with a blunt object. But I know alot of people like it.
Well, I'm an introvert. I enjoy the "me-time" and I actually like my relationship right now, since we both do not seem to want to move beyond the stage of "dating" (we call each other several times a day, and meet about 3-4 times a week to do stuff together). That gives me both the time to do my work (I know some people would probably have a problem with my work/life balance if I was in a more "traditional" relationship) and the time to do stuff I like to do alone or with friends (such as gaming, playing chess with my best friend, reading books, having wine tasting Fridays with a bunch of faggots and faghags and the like).
Sure, I sometimes feel boredom but this motivates me to seek out new stuff. I can't imagine having these "empty" moments removed by having a constant presence of a wife/husband or a kid without a moment for myself.
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
But I can very well imagine myself being alone (I have been for the large part of my 20s) and I don't have a need to be in a relationship as such.
I think there's a launch window in one's life where you're optimally primed for the "perma-relationship" (read: engagement, marriage) part of your adult maturation; first there's school, then there's establishing career, then there's the "thinking about the future with the long-term gf/bf/misc."; I think, once you get past that window in your late 20s-early 30s, you've pretty much missed it, and you've molded your lifestyle around it accordingly.
I've seen the author of this book hitting the talk circuit recently:
Going Solo: The Extraordinary Rise and Surprising Appeal of Living Alone (http://www.amazon.com/Going-Solo-Extraordinary-Surprising-Appeal/dp/1594203229/ref=pd_sim_b_13)
QuoteIn 1950, only 22 percent of American adults were single. Today, more than 50 percent of American adults are single, and 31 million—roughly one out of every seven adults—live alone. People who live alone make up 28 percent of all U.S. households, which makes them more common than any other domestic unit, including the nuclear family. In GOING SOLO, renowned sociologist and author Eric Klinenberg proves that these numbers are more than just a passing trend. They are, in fact, evidence of the biggest demographic shift since the Baby Boom: we are learning to go solo, and crafting new ways of living in the process.
Klinenberg explores the dramatic rise of solo living, and examines the seismic impact it's having on our culture, business, and politics. Though conventional wisdom tells us that living by oneself leads to loneliness and isolation, Klinenberg shows that most solo dwellers are deeply engaged in social and civic life. In fact, compared with their married counterparts, they are more likely to eat out and exercise, go to art and music classes, attend public events and lectures, and volunteer. There's even evidence that people who live alone enjoy better mental health than unmarried people who live with others and have more environmentally sustainable lifestyles than families, since they favor urban apartments over large suburban homes. Drawing on over three hundred in-depth interviews with men and women of all ages and every class, Klinenberg reaches a startling conclusion: in a world of ubiquitous media and hyperconnectivity, this way of life can help us discover ourselves and appreciate the pleasure of good company.
With eye-opening statistics, original data, and vivid portraits of people who go solo, Klinenberg upends conventional wisdom to deliver the definitive take on how the rise of living alone is transforming the American experience. GOING SOLO is a powerful and necessary assessment of an unprecedented social change.
Well, I'm 34 and since this relationship started when I was 32, I may very well be in for a long haul. :wacko:
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:24:27 AM
Well, I'm an introvert. I enjoy the "me-time" and I actually like my relationship right now, since we both do not seem to want to move beyond the stage of "dating" (we call each other several times a day, and meet about 3-4 times a week to do stuff together). That gives me both the time to do my work (I know some people would probably have a problem with my work/life balance if I was in a more "traditional" relationship) and the time to do stuff I like to do alone or with friends (such as gaming, playing chess with my best friend, reading books, having wine tasting Fridays with a bunch of faggots and faghags and the like).
Sure, I sometimes feel boredom but this motivates me to seek out new stuff. I can't imagine having these "empty" moments removed by having a constant presence of a wife/husband or a kid without a moment for myself.
So why are you so quick to label individuals as pathological or enslaved to social mores when they have values that you don't share?
Quote from: Valmy on July 10, 2012, 08:20:25 AM
Yeah I never had any interest at all in being alone. I would rather gouge out my eyes with a blunt object. But I know alot of people like it.
Yup. I prefer my alone time. I remember talking to someone about dating, and they're like, "well, why don't you meet people with the same interests?" Well, my interests are primarily reading and writing. Not exactly group activities. I prefer watching movies alone. Even when I did exercise, lulz, I wanted to do it alone. There's not much out there I'm interesting in doing that I can't do, or prefer to do, by myself.
But then again, I chafe at authority figures which, no matter how you try to sugar-coat it, is exactly what a relationship partner tries to become, either overtly or covertly, consciously or unconsciously. Live free or die.
Besides, I think gay relationships may develop differently. If you don't live together, don't have children and can fuck other people, this tends to develop more akin to long term friendships which is fine with me.
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:32:11 AM
Besides, I think gay relationships may develop differently. If you don't live together, don't have children and can fuck other people, this tends to develop more akin to long term friendships which is fine with me.
Of course, many gay people do the opposite of what you list above. :hmm:
Which is why I used the word "may".
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 08:52:51 AM
Which is why I used the word "may".
Which then says nothing as straight relationships may develop differently as well. :yawn:
I can sort of see some point in what Martinus is saying but I think a lot of that is down to how different things are for gay guys.
For gay guys getting laid with random strangers is a lot easier than for straight men, so the sex concern isn't so huge. And they don't have the countdown timer on having kids that straight people (girls and by extension straight men to an extent) do, they don't have the big scary looming 30 (well...not in the same way as straight people...).
Online dating- now that I've totally never understood. I've investigated those sites before and....yeah. There tends not to be much on offer at all...And even if there was...mailing random strangers on a site specially for dating....the whole contrived thing is too strong for me, even on top of the weirdness of dating. Being so up front like that is not something I can imagine doing. Probally just me being crazy on this though.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2012, 09:15:54 AMthey don't have the big scary looming 30 (well...not in the same way as straight people...).
Until recently with the demographic shift it was even worse.
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2012, 09:15:54 AM
I can sort of see some point in what Martinus is saying but I think a lot of that is down to how different things are for gay guys.
For gay guys getting laid with random strangers is a lot easier than for straight men, so the sex concern isn't so huge. And they don't have the countdown timer on having kids that straight people (girls and by extension straight men to an extent) do, they don't have the big scary looming 30 (well...not in the same way as straight people...).
If you are a remotely average-looking guy getting laid is not that hard either - as long you show you have balls and you're not afraid of rejection,you don't crush on the hawt babe you have no chance with, you don't look straight out from Tri-Lambda in
Revenge of the Nerds, and you don't sound like a serial killer when you talk.
You make it sound like it takes a degree in astrophysics (or to be some kind of rich jock straight out of Ivy League) for a straight guy to find someone to hook up with; even squirrels get laid with one another in nature. If you don't go out and don't show that you are available, no one's gonna give you that kind of attention.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320425_3583375138142_1532576152_n.jpg)
Quote from: Drakken on July 10, 2012, 10:45:24 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 10, 2012, 09:15:54 AM
I can sort of see some point in what Martinus is saying but I think a lot of that is down to how different things are for gay guys.
For gay guys getting laid with random strangers is a lot easier than for straight men, so the sex concern isn't so huge. And they don't have the countdown timer on having kids that straight people (girls and by extension straight men to an extent) do, they don't have the big scary looming 30 (well...not in the same way as straight people...).
If you are a remotely average-looking guy getting laid is not that hard either - as long you show you have balls and you're not afraid of rejection,you don't crush on the hawt babe you have no chance with, you don't look straight out from Tri-Lambda in Revenge of the Nerds, and you don't sound like a serial killer when you talk.
You make it sound like it takes a degree in astrophysics (or to be some kind of rich jock straight out of Ivy League) for a straight guy to find someone to hook up with; even squirrels get laid with one another in nature. If you don't go out and don't show that you are available, no one's gonna give you that kind of attention.
Noone wants to fuck fat.
Quote from: Phillip V on July 10, 2012, 10:53:48 AM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320425_3583375138142_1532576152_n.jpg)
Pictures like this make me melancholic. Are the slots one to four worth the price of the slot five?
I do think about that sometime Marty. Especially with regards to my kids...I just created a relationship and people I love so much that if something were to happen it would destroy me. That is something I try not to think about.
you're gonna die alone anyway, might do the best you can with slots 1-4.
Quote from: HVC on July 10, 2012, 11:31:38 AM
you're gonna die alone anyway, might do the best you can with slots 1-4.
We are all alone when we die. But is it better to lose something you once had or never have it?
Sometimes, ya. To take it down to a less catastrophic scenario. Ever have a pet? I know it's not the same, but most people have had pets and lost pets and wouldn't change a thing.
Loss is a part of life. To minimize loss means you don't live life to the fullest. Now I'm not saying you need family/wife/husband to live life to the fullest. If you truly don't have the inclination there's nothing wrong with that. But if you suppress the inclination to avoid future pain I feel you lose something. Remember, you often regret the experiences you didn't have more than the experiences you did have (unless it involves jail time :P )
Quote from: Martinus on July 10, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
Quote from: dps on July 09, 2012, 06:21:17 PMMaybe some people think that just waiting around for good things to happen to them isn't the best plan. To become a lawyer, did you just hang out at a bar, hope someone would come along and just hand you a law degree, and then someone from a law firm would just come along and offer you a position? Well, maybe it works like that in Poland, but in most places, the good jobs end up going to those who take a proactive approach to obtaining them. Why should romantic relationships be any different?
I think you touch the key issue with the mentality here.
Having a gainful employment is a value in itself - something you are supposed to have. So you do need to go out and try to find the job/education rather than waiting for it to happen to you (or not).
And that's where I think the difference lies. Most people seem to believe that you are "supposed to be" in a relationship - whereas I think it's a folly (and one that results in a lot of unhappy people). We are taught by the popular culture that being in a relationship is a value in itself, and if you aren't in a relationship then there is something wrong with you and you should try to fix it. Instead, we should teach people that being in a relationship with someone, anyone, should not be a goal, but rather something that happens to you (or not).
Dating someone doesn't necessarily lead to a permanent and/or monogomous relationship. Some of you Europeans seem to be thinging of it in a much more formalized way than it's ususally taken to mean in the States. It just boils down to hanging out with someone who you like and might get to fuck. Can it lead to a permanent and/or exclusive relationship? Sure, but it doesn't have to.
QuoteWe are all alone when we die. But is it better to lose something you once had or never have it?
You'll likely to outlive your parents. Would you prefer to have never known them and been raised in an orphanage?
Quote from: Valmy on July 09, 2012, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on July 09, 2012, 11:41:55 AM
Valmy broke that shit down.
I think Euros have started about 10 threads on this topic. I am really starting to master my talking points :P
Who besides Tyr has made these kinds of comments?
It is inconceivable to me that Europeans can't understand dating when their monetary system has been a classic example of a date that started out with promise and excitement but then went horribly wrong.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 10, 2012, 05:46:21 PM
It is inconceivable to me that Europeans can't understand dating when their monetary system has been a classic example of a date that started out with promise and excitement but then went horribly wrong.
Europeans believed the "just the tip" part. :(
Quote from: Habbaku on July 10, 2012, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 10, 2012, 05:46:21 PM
It is inconceivable to me that Europeans can't understand dating when their monetary system has been a classic example of a date that started out with promise and excitement but then went horribly wrong.
Europeans believed the "just the tip" part. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS-7zTzrSAA - NSFW
Quote from: HVC on July 10, 2012, 06:02:29 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on July 10, 2012, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 10, 2012, 05:46:21 PM
It is inconceivable to me that Europeans can't understand dating when their monetary system has been a classic example of a date that started out with promise and excitement but then went horribly wrong.
Europeans believed the "just the tip" part. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS-7zTzrSAA - NSFW
:)
Quote from: Drakken on July 10, 2012, 10:45:24 AM
If you are a remotely average-looking guy getting laid is not that hard either - as long you show you have balls and you're not afraid of rejection,you don't crush on the hawt babe you have no chance with, you don't look straight out from Tri-Lambda in Revenge of the Nerds, and you don't sound like a serial killer when you talk.
You make it sound like it takes a degree in astrophysics (or to be some kind of rich jock straight out of Ivy League) for a straight guy to find someone to hook up with; even squirrels get laid with one another in nature. If you don't go out and don't show that you are available, no one's gonna give you that kind of attention.
Oh sure, its possible, but its nowhere near as easy for straight guys as it is for straight girls or gay guys (no clue about lesbians). The way gay guys tell it they just have to decide "I wanna get laid tonight" and they pop down to their local gay bar and ask around.
Even for partiuclarly skilled and attractive guys things are a lot more hit and miss, let alone the bulk of us.
Sweet jesus, this thread.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailypop.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F02%2Fbatman-facepalm1.jpg&hash=cac674f318f597b7350bdee1956ab8f9ca549e45)