http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18170492
QuoteMontreal crowds mark 100 days of student protest
Tens of thousands of demonstrators have filled the streets of Montreal to mark 100 days since protests began against a planned rise in student tuition fees.
People chanted "Our streets!" and carried signs and red banners. There were no reports of arrests.
An emergency bill passed by Quebec's government on Friday was aimed at curbing the protests by requiring marches to follow pre-approved routes.
Rallies since then have turned violent, with 300 arrests on Sunday alone.
Protesters say the law, Bill 78, infringes their democratic right to express themselves. They have pledged to contest it in court.
Quebec has the lowest tuition rates in Canada. The government's proposal would raise them by 80%, in increments of $254 per year (£160) for seven years.
'Massive, collective disobedience'
Most of Tuesday's protesters followed a route submitted to police in advance, in accordance with the emergency bill.
However, some protesters linked with Classe, a student group with a no-compromise reputation, chose to defy the law and break away from the crowds.
Classe also said it would continue to agitate through the summer, a time of year when Montreal hosts outdoor festivals and attracts large numbers of tourists.
"Thousands of people have come to demonstrate with us, not only against the rise in tuition rates but with the intention to signal their disapproval of the special law," Classe leader Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois told the Associated Press news agency.
"The gesture made by tens of thousands is one of massive and collective civil disobedience."
But Quebec's minister of public safety, Robert Dutil, countered that many cities - including Geneva, New York, Los Angeles and Toronto - have implemented comparable legislation.
"Other societies with rights and freedoms to protect have found it reasonable to impose certain constraints, first of all to protect protesters, and also to protect the public," Mr Dutil told reporters.
The bill requires activists to provide the police with eight hours' notice of when and where protests are planned to take place, or face heavy fines.
Small protests took place in New York and Paris on Tuesday in solidarity with the movement in Montreal.
In Quebec, the provincial government has not backed away from the proposed increases of tuition fees, and Premier Jean Charest has been criticised by opposition parties for his handling of the protests.
Mr Charest must call an election before 2013.
If they didnt have to pay for the football programs, the Deans making six figures, etc............
Let us hope this brings down the federalist scumbag and his corrupt government. <_<
G.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:49:24 AM
If they didnt have to pay for the football programs, the Deans making six figures, etc............
We should fire them all, exactly.
Our universities have been acting like Real Estate Investment companies recently and most got burned, especially UQAM.
QuoteThe government's proposal would raise them by 80%, in increments of $254 per year (£160) for seven years.
Really? That's what this fuss is all about? An extra $254 per year?
Quote from: 11B4V on May 23, 2012, 05:49:24 AM
If they didnt have to pay for the football programs, the Deans making six figures, etc............
I'm in agreement on the Deans and Professor pay, but I assume the football programs bring in money for colleges, and big money for some schools.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 07:03:01 AM
QuoteThe government's proposal would raise them by 80%, in increments of $254 per year (£160) for seven years.
Really? That's what this fuss is all about? An extra $254 per year?
Yes. My taxes aren't going down to compensante that either.
The ideal of free education should never be put out of sight.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 07:16:42 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 07:03:01 AM
QuoteThe government's proposal would raise them by 80%, in increments of $254 per year (£160) for seven years.
Really? That's what this fuss is all about? An extra $254 per year?
Yes. My taxes aren't going down to compensante that either.
The ideal of free education should never be put out of sight.
Dude, it's $254 extra A YEAR. You piss away more on shit you don't even remember.
It's way passed tuition hikes right now. Most people are angry that their right to manifest are curtailed for obvious political reasons - to ensure no one manifests against the Liberals without excessive law enforcement approval until next year's election.
In any case, the Special Law is regularly ignored by protesters except in evenings when the number of people can be easily more controled and even then there's not much the police can do about it. The extreme option to arrest everyone and book them would be politically disastrous.
I don't care. They are wasting the money we already give them & they want us to give them more.
Quote from: KRonn on May 23, 2012, 07:14:28 AM
I'm in agreement on the Deans and Professor pay, but I assume the football programs bring in money for colleges, and big money for some schools.
But Professors provide the education which is at least part of the reason behind a university and, certainly in the UK, quality of research affects both public funding and ability to attract private funding too.
Quote from: KRonn on May 23, 2012, 07:14:28 AM
but I assume the football programs bring in money for colleges, and big money for some schools.
You'd be surprised at the small amount of those funds that ever leave a school's Athletic Department.
Quote from: KRonn on May 23, 2012, 07:14:28 AMI'm in agreement on the Deans and Professor pay, but I assume the football programs bring in money for colleges, and big money for some schools.
You would assume wrong. I am not aware of any football money that does anything besides fund athletics and that is for the small percentage of football programs that actually make money.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 07:50:41 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 23, 2012, 07:14:28 AMI'm in agreement on the Deans and Professor pay, but I assume the football programs bring in money for colleges, and big money for some schools.
You would assume wrong. I am not aware of any football money that does anything besides fund athletics and that is for the small percentage of football programs that actually make money.
I actually made the mistake of assuming that during a discussion with a professor from Oklahoma, who was looking under every rock and seat cushion possible for funding on a Native American archeological project.
Should've seen the look I got when I mentioned, "Well, you'd think the money Oklahoma football generates, the school wouldn't have a problem helping out your department." :lol:
It seems clear to me that what Quebec wants is no raises in tuition regardless of what that might do to the competitiveness of their universities. Considering they have top notch, and very expensive, universities just south of them I do not see that this is necessarily a bad plan.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 07:44:35 AM
Quote from: KRonn on May 23, 2012, 07:14:28 AM
I'm in agreement on the Deans and Professor pay, but I assume the football programs bring in money for colleges, and big money for some schools.
But Professors provide the education which is at least part of the reason behind a university and, certainly in the UK, quality of research affects both public funding and ability to attract private funding too.
Yeah, but this isn't about education. It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats. Except with Drakken. His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.
At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:03:48 AM
It seems clear to me that what Quebec wants is no raises in tuition regardless of what that might do to the competitiveness of their universities. Considering they have top notch, and very expensive, universities just south of them I do not see that this is necessarily a bad plan.
It's a natural extension of the retail education idea, where your degree is a service and by paying your money you're entitled to it.
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
I'm just trying to figure out how $254 a year is considered such a fundamental violation of civil liberties.
$2,540 a year, I can understand that; but $254 a year? That's practically just keeping up with inflation and COLA.
Get over yourselves already.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:14:33 AM
I'm just trying to figure out how $254 a year is considered such a fundamental violation of civil liberties.
It is the principal and precedent that is the issue I guess. Like the British Parliament having only one small tax on a certain beverage.
Hey maybe this is the Quebec Tea Party movement!
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:16:27 AM
Like the British Parliament having only one small tax on a certain beverage.
That tax was the final fucking straw, not the only straw, man. You know that. Tory. :mad:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:14:33 AM
I'm just trying to figure out how $254 a year is considered such a fundamental violation of civil liberties.
$2,540 a year, I can understand that; but $254 a year? That's practically just keeping up with inflation and COLA.
Get over yourselves already.
It's not, the fundamental violation of civil liberties is the special law 78 that severly restrict the right to manifest. The law is probably anticonstitutionnal but it will expire before the courts ear any case brought before them on the subject.
The Liberal Party & CAQ mps should have be tar & feathered for allowing the Ministers to pass that law.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:23:23 AM
That tax was the final fucking straw, not the only straw, man. You know that. Tory. :mad:
The colonists were sure it was a plot to establish the power of Parliament to tax us precisely because it was such a small and measely tax that would raise so little revenue. Why else would they establish it except to enslave us all?
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
:blink: I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
:blink: I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.
Goes a long way back. Americans have an inherent disdain for any form of civil disobedience or unrest.
Yeah, I know, I know.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:35:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
:blink: I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.
Goes a long way back. Americans have an inherent disdain for any form of civil disobedience or unrest.
Yeah, I know, I know.
Look at how obnoxious protesters have been in recent times? They aren't even fighting for important causes.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 08:32:14 AM
:blink: I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.
I cannot speak for everybody but it just sorta rubs me the wrong way when people are not trying to bring attention to an issue or convince through a demonstration but actively trying to intimidate a majority that disagrees with them. I do not understand what is so weird about that. You hate Democracy outside of the US?
But most demonstrations are not like that. In this case it could be Montrealers opposing a policy that was snuck through that the public generally opposses and they want to make sure the powers that be are not going to get away with it.
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 08:36:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:35:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
:blink: I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.
Goes a long way back. Americans have an inherent disdain for any form of civil disobedience or unrest.
Yeah, I know, I know.
Look at how obnoxious protesters have been in recent times? They aren't even fighting for important causes.
LOL, Americans have hated protesters going back to the Pullman strikes, man. Don't gimme that.
Send in the Princess Pat's and deal with the scum.
When the fuck was I speaking for all Americans regarding all protests? I was asking a specific question about this one regarding the general support for the policy.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:38:30 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 08:36:35 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 08:35:21 AM
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
:blink: I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.
Goes a long way back. Americans have an inherent disdain for any form of civil disobedience or unrest.
Yeah, I know, I know.
Look at how obnoxious protesters have been in recent times? They aren't even fighting for important causes.
LOL, Americans have hated protesters going back to the Pullman strikes, man. Don't gimme that.
Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 08:43:08 AM
Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.
We "let" them? Or did they take it?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
We "let" them? Or did they take it?
I think the distaste for demonstrations waxes and wanes. During the pre-WWII 20th century people seemed pretty pro-Demo. I remember some tycoon...JP Morgan maybe...would complain when people would demonstrate in front of his house in NYC he would call the cops and they basically would just walk up, socialize a bit with the protestors and then the crowd would leave with a *wink wink* from the cops they could come back as soon as the cops left. Working class solidarity and all that.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 08:43:08 AM
Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.
We "let" them? Or did they take it?
If we were really so against, could have had Tiananmens and Kent States all over until people finally abandoned that type of discourse. :)
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 08:43:08 AM
Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.
We "let" them? Or did they take it?
If we were really so against, could have had Tiananmens and Kent States all over until people finally abandoned that type of discourse. :)
Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.
WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma. We are far more leftist and social-democrat than even California or New England. Even our center-rights would all be Commies and Socialists in the US.
The tuition hike issue could have been resolved by some mixture of hard and fairness, if only to find ways to alleviate the pain for the students; carrots and sticks.
The reason a lot of students are against this hikes, most notably in the social science faculties, is that the debt they will be left repay would be harder for them to repay than - say - those in medecine or finance schools. So the hike stings more for them than those with a silver spoon in their mouth. Also, universities here in Quebec have spent a lot of money in estates or other speculative ventures that went sour, rather than invest in better services. They had the money, but they wasted it. Quite a few universities' budget are in deficit and are badly administrated, so much than one of them (UQAM) was almost put under administrative control by the MEQ.
If the government had taken all these in account when negociating fairly with the student bodies, the crisis would have ended much sooner.
Instead, the government has taken an incredibly aggressive and polarizing attitude, filled with condescending scorn and a legalistic juste-au-boutism. They literally equal anyone who give even support by omission against the government's policy as being against the government, against the rule of law, and being tantamount to mob rule supporters. In other words, this government is full of Neils. Rather than recognize any semblance of legitimacy to their opponents and talk with them, the government went the "let's teach the kids a lesson and fuck with them" approach - which is made even badder by the fact that this government has now even less legitimacy thanks to its link to numerous accusations of party sleaze and corruption. The Charbonneau Commission, which is charged to inquire against the sleaze links between the government and different lobby groups, has opened just yesterday.
Even the so-called "deal" that was proposed was in fact a bamboozle and a sham; the paper that was signed wasn't what was agreed orally during the negocation processn and the former minister of Education Line Beauchamp went immediately to the press to announce that what would in happen in real was the opposite of what was signed in the deal.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Hey blame Shielbh. I would love to see a protest in Tulsa, Oklahoma...eh nevermind it would probably be a lynch mob.
QuoteThe tuition hike issue could have been resolved by some mixture of hard and fairness, if only to find ways to alleviate the pain for the students; carrots and sticks.
The reason a lot of students are against this hikes, most notably in the social science faculties, is that the debt they will be left repay would be harder for them to repay than - say - those in medecine or finance schools. So the hike stings more for them than those with a silver spoon in their mouth. Also, universities here in Quebec have spent a lot of money in estates or other speculative ventures, rather should have been invested in better services. Quite a few universities' budget are in deficit and are badly administrated, so much than one of them (UQAM) was almost put under administrative control by the MEQ.
If the government had taken all these in account when negociating fairly with the student bodies, the crisis would have ended much sooner.
Instead, the government has taken an incredibly aggressive and polarizing attitude, filled with condescending scorn and a legalistic juste-au-boutism. They literally equal anyone who give even support by omission against the government's policy as being against the government, against the rule of law, and being tantamount to mob rule supporters. In other words, this government is full of Neils. Rather than recognize any semblance of legitimacy to their opponents and talk with them, the government went the "let's teach the kids a lesson and fuck with them" approach - which is made even badder by the fact that this government has now even less legitimacy thanks to its linked to numerous accusation of party sleaze and corruption.
Even the so-called "deal" that was proposed was in fact a bamboozle and a sham; the paper that was signed wasn't what was agreed orally during the negocation processn and the former minister of Education Line Beauchamp went immediately to the press to announce that what would in happen in real was the opposite of what was signed in the deal.
A little less Hansian hyperbole would be nice to help me understand the issue but the last paragraph does smell like a rat. I hate it when parliaments pull that kind of garbage.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Sheila B started it, man.
$254 a year increase is not worth getting torqued up over for 100 days.
Hell, over the course of the 100 days, if they worked part-time in an indie cafe full of Polish gay wanna-be hipsters typing on Apples about hating real hipsters instead of wasting 100 days like a bunch of spoiled brats, they would've already made up for the money, and then some.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:24:02 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 08:43:08 AM
Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.
We "let" them? Or did they take it?
If we were really so against, could have had Tiananmens and Kent States all over until people finally abandoned that type of discourse. :)
Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.
Yes because that's what I'm saying.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
In other words, this government is full of Neils.
Well, that is a bit unfortunate. What with Neil being a dickhead and all.
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:24:02 AM
Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.
Yes because that's what I'm saying.
I hope you get brained by the cops at your next Pride rally. SEQUINS BLOODY SEQUINS
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:29:15 AM
A little less Hansian hyperbole would be nice to help me understand the issue but the last paragraph does smell like a rat. I hate it when parliaments pull that kind of garbage.
Except that it's not Hansian - it is really the current state of Quebec education. Our current Justice Minister went to say in front of the press yesterday that "civil disobedience" is in fact another, nicer way to say "vandalism". :rolleyes:
Even some commentators at La Presse (which is far from being leftist yellow paper) agree with that reading. For instance, Vincent Marissal - who is far from being a Commie and who is one of the most esteemed commentator of both Federal and Provincial politics :
Quote
Un gouvernement dépassé et inadéquat
Vincent Marissal
La Presse
Rosa Parks était-elle une délinquante?
La question peut paraître grossière, mais pas plus, si vous voulez mon avis, que la déclaration du ministre de la Justice, Jean-Marc Fournier, selon qui l'expression «désobéissance civile» est une jolie façon de dire «vandalisme».
Je précise, avant qu'une irrépressible envie de m'écrire des bêtises vous assaille, que je ne fais aucun parallèle entre le mouvement des droits des Noirs américains sur le fond, mais plutôt sur la forme. La désobéissance civile est un mécanisme classique de lutte contre le pouvoir. Ce fut le cas pour cette jeune couturière de l'Alabama qui refusa, en 1955, d'aller s'asseoir à l'arrière d'un bus comme c'est le cas pour certains étudiants qui décident de défier la loi spéciale 78.
Je n'encourage pas les étudiants à le faire (ce serait bête d'aggraver leur situation financière par de lourdes amendes), mais je comprendrais fort bien leurs motifs. Cette loi est exagérée, abusive, mal pensée, vraisemblablement inconstitutionnelle et, apparemment, difficile à appliquer. En tout cas, hier, le Service de police de la Ville de Montréal a préféré ne pas l'utiliser. La police fait preuve de plus de retenue dans l'application d'une loi spéciale que le gouvernement qui l'a concoctée en catastrophe au nom de la sécurité et de la paix sociale...
Ça fait donc plus de 100 jours que ça dure. Des centaines de manifs; plus d'un millier d'arrestations; une entente bidon avortée; une ministre sacrifiée; une loi spéciale très dure adoptée dans la cohue, et puis quoi? Rien. L'impasse. Le gouvernement en «mode menace». La police en «mode anti-émeute». Les étudiants grévistes en «mode manif».
Le gouvernement peut se conforter en regardant les différents sondages, qui démontrent que les Québécois sont majoritairement d'accord avec la loi spéciale, cela ne change rien au fond du problème: trois mois plus tard, la crise n'est toujours pas réglée.
Depuis plus de trois mois, ce gouvernement a tout faux. Malgré le ton grave et confiant de celui qui ne reculera pas, ce gouvernement est dépassé et inadéquat.
Au début, il a mal évalué l'ampleur du mouvement, qui allait rapidement s'essouffler, pensait-on à Québec. Puis, le gouvernement a cru que la grève prendrait fin à Pâques. Ensuite, les libéraux ont tenté de diaboliser Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois. En vain. Ils croyaient par ailleurs être capables de mettre fin au conflit avec une entente mal fagotée et farfelue et comme rien de tout ça n'a fonctionné, ils ont cru faire peur aux étudiants avec une loi spéciale.
Bien sûr, le gouvernement n'a pas tous les torts. Les représentants des étudiants ont fait preuve d'une sacrée intransigeance par moments, mais à la fin, en démocratie, c'est le gouvernement qui doit régler les crises et assurer la paix sociale. Il y arrive avec la FTQ, notamment, qui est nettement plus intimidante que ne le seront jamais les étudiants.
On a appris il y a quelques jours que la FECQ et la FEUQ ont offert de parler des droits de scolarité, mais que l'ex-ministre Beauchamp leur a alors dit que ce sujet n'était pas négociable.
Ce gouvernement n'a pas été capable d'en arriver à une solution négociée. Il est maintenant incapable de forcer la fin de la crise avec une loi matraque. Que lui reste-t-il comme crédibilité, comme légitimité?
La ministre de l'Éducation, Michelle Courchesne, a dit hier que son cabinet tentait depuis jeudi de joindre les associations! Come on! Tous les étudiants ont des cellulaires (et boivent de la sangria à Outremont!), c'est bien connu! Et puis, si la ligne est occupée, envoyez votre invitation formelle par l'entremise des médias, ce ne serait pas la première fois.
Au point où on en est, nous devrions enfermer tout ce beau monde dans une église (ça facilite le recueillement!) et ne les laisser en sortir que lorsque la fumée blanche du consensus s'échappera de la cheminée.
Il est peut-être trop tard, par contre. On se dirige peut-être vers 100 autres jours de grève, vers un trimestre définitivement foutu et vers un joyeux bordel en septembre.
Le principal problème, dans l'approche du gouvernement, c'est qu'elle est intransigeante, qu'elle est antagoniste. Vous portez le carré rouge? Vous êtes contre le gouvernement, contre le Québec même, et pour la violence; vous désobéissez? Vous êtes un vandale! Vous ne dénoncez pas la violence? C'est donc que vous l'encouragez! Vous n'acceptez pas la hausse? Vous êtes contre le développement des universités!
Il y a un problème d'équilibre, de contrepoids dans l'approche de ce gouvernement. Ça commence au sommet de la hiérarchie, avec Jean Charest, qui a apparemment oublié qu'il est aussi ministre de la Jeunesse. Il a écouté la commission jeunesse de son parti, qui a produit de judicieuses recommandations au cours des dernières années, mais les leaders étudiants n'ont, semble-t-il, aucune légitimité à ses yeux.
Problème de contrepoids, aussi, à l'Éducation, qui est maintenant entre les mains de la présidente du Conseil du Trésor, dont le mandat premier est de réduire les dépenses de l'État.
Quant au ministre de la Sécurité publique, Robert Dutil, il est d'abord ministre de la Police dans cette crise.
Que la police arrête et neutralise les casseurs et les têtes brûlées, soit, mais qui protège les victimes collatérales qui se font tabasser et poivrer si généreusement, comme le démontrent les vidéos du week-end? Qui protège un photographe de presse dûment identifié qui se fait cogner la tête par une brute en uniforme? Qui protège un restaurateur ou un dramaturge injustement maltraités, insultés et arrêtés?
«La déontologie», a dit hier M. Dutil.
Faites-moi rire...
BTW Francophones, manifest = demonstrate.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:29:31 AM
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Sheila B started it, man.
$254 a year increase is not worth getting torqued up over for 100 days.
Hell, over the course of the 100 days, if they worked part-time in an indie cafe full of Polish gay wanna-be hipsters typing on Apples about hating real hipsters instead of wasting 100 days like a bunch of spoiled brats, they would've already made up for the money, and then some.
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 09:36:02 AM
BTW Francophones, manifest = demonstrate.
Thank you.
I spent a good minute trying to find a better word.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:32:22 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:24:02 AM
Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.
Yes because that's what I'm saying.
I hope you get brained by the cops at your next Pride rally. SEQUINS BLOODY SEQUINS
A Pride rally? Anyway, pride parades aren't protests - they are parades. ;)
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:34:53 AM
Except that it's not Hansian - it is really the current state of Quebec education. Our current Justice Minister went to say in front of the press yesterday that "civil disobedience" is in fact another, nicer way to say "vandalism". :rolleyes:
Even some commentators at La Presse (which is far from being leftist yellow paper) agree with that reading. For instance, Vincent Marissal - who is far from being a Commie and who is one of the most esteemed commentator of both Federal and Provincial politics :
I meant Hansian in the sense that even if what you are saying is true, the strong language you are using makes it hard to determine what exactly you are saying. That article is a pretty severe indictment of the handling of the protests that is for sure. Why is the government so threatened here?
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Yeah. It is principal and precendent here.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:29:31 AM
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Sheila B started it, man.
$254 a year increase is not worth getting torqued up over for 100 days.
Hell, over the course of the 100 days, if they worked part-time in an indie cafe full of Polish gay wanna-be hipsters typing on Apples about hating real hipsters instead of wasting 100 days like a bunch of spoiled brats, they would've already made up for the money, and then some.
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Which is a ridiculous stance.
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2012, 09:29:31 AM
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Sheila B started it, man.
$254 a year increase is not worth getting torqued up over for 100 days.
Hell, over the course of the 100 days, if they worked part-time in an indie cafe full of Polish gay wanna-be hipsters typing on Apples about hating real hipsters instead of wasting 100 days like a bunch of spoiled brats, they would've already made up for the money, and then some.
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Which is a ridiculous stance.
Why? It's a different stance the Anglo-saxon view of Higher education, that's all.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:41:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Yeah. It is principal and precendent here.
They pay less then any other students in Canada (and still would I believe). Their stubbornness gets no pity from me.
Quote from: HVC on May 23, 2012, 09:44:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:41:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Yeah. It is principal and precendent here.
They pay less then any other students in Canada (and still would I believe). Their stubbornness gets no pity from me.
I don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:40:45 AM
I meant Hansian in the sense that even if what you are saying is true, the strong language you are using makes it hard to determine what exactly you are saying. That article is a pretty severe indictment of the handling of the protests that is for sure. Why is the government so threatened here?
It's a good question, because at the start of the student protests this government wasn't directly threatened in itself. It just went downhill very fast - both due to the government's bad faith and the student bodies' intransigent attitude.
It's been a 100-day long chicken game and both sides have put rocks on the brakes.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:47:28 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 23, 2012, 09:44:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:41:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Yeah. It is principal and precendent here.
They pay less then any other students in Canada (and still would I believe). Their stubbornness gets no pity from me.
I don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.
it's not a "my money" thing, it's a "share my pain" thing lol. And don't equalization payments pay for provincial matters? Although Ontario is now a have not province like Quebec :lol:
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:43:59 AM
Why? It's a different stance the Anglo-saxon view of Higher education, that's all.
It is not a universal Anglo thing. The Brits love their free education as well. It is a North American thing. I am not sure how those wacky Aussies do it.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:47:28 AM
I don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.
Perequation. :secret:
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:39:30 AM
Thank you.
I spent a good minute trying to find a better word.
"Riot" also works. :P
QuoteI don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.
Absolutely. And you have a political process in your province to decide things like education spending. The system worked as designed, and arrived at the decision that tuition would be raised. If you don't like the decison, vote for someone else next election.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 09:51:18 AM
Absolutely. And you have a political process in your province to decide things like education spending. The system worked as designed, and arrived at the decision that tuition would be raised. If you don't like the decison, vote for someone else next election.
Protesting is perfectly legitimate in a democracy. Like I said to Viper, this ain't student bodies commanding people to commit vandalism. 99% of the protesters are pacific and respect the law - except Bill 78. Blocking the way for students who want to go study is a bit iffy legally-wise, though, but now that the sessions are suspended the point is moot.
We don't have elections every two years like you have down South.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:51:04 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:47:28 AM
I don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.
Perequation. :secret:
If they don't like it they can go ahead & change the rules of redistribution.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
If they don't like it they can go ahead & change the rules of redistribution.
It wouldn't be in our benefit - we are a province receiving perequation. So yes part of our budget comes from the other provinces funding us so that we give services equal in quality.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 09:51:18 AM
Absolutely. And you have a political process in your province to decide things like education spending. The system worked as designed, and arrived at the decision that tuition would be raised. If you don't like the decison, vote for someone else next election.
Democracy is not perfect. Sometimes the system gets corrupted and more direct action is needed by the population. I am not saying that you might not be correct in this particular case but just because you have a Democratic constitution does no mean you can get your way simply by voting in another party. Politicians...they lie.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:57:39 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
If they don't like it they can go ahead & change the rules of redistribution.
It wouldn't be in our benefit - we are a province receiving perequation. So yes part of our budget comes from the other provinces funding us so that we give services equal in quality.
I know and it won't change before the Western Pops gets bigger then Ontario + Quebec combined.
Je veux juste dire, si ils aiment pas sa, ils ont juste a en parler avec la gouvernement Fédéral. D'ici là on va en faire ce qu'on veu. Comme des garderies a 7$ qui enrage l'Alberta.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:54:00 AM
Protesting is perfectly legitimate in a democracy.
Protest that follows the law is perfectly legitimate.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:04:00 AM
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:54:00 AM
Protesting is perfectly legitimate in a democracy.
Protest that follows the law is perfectly legitimate.
The law was followed - until they voted Bill 78. Because of this faulty law, it has become civil disobedience because people fundamentally disagree with the spirit and the letter of the law. It's not like we have guns pulled and we are in apprehended insurrection, people march in the street and deliberately refuse to give their route to the police.
If I follow you, when a government votes a law that goes against the Constitution, and when this government refuses to listen and communicate to protest in good faith, but rather decides to treat them with contempt and condescendence, we should all be quiet and obey until the next election. That precludes any possibility of lawful protest - and not so lawful when the government treats them as enemies to silence and trample down. I'm shocked than an American, from a country who worships its Founding Father who actually took arms and killed for their mostly financial revendications - would throw out such a legalistic idea.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:04:00 AM
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:54:00 AM
Protesting is perfectly legitimate in a democracy.
Protest that follows the law is perfectly legitimate.
Fuck their laws. We'll respect then when they are made for legitimate reasons & not just to stay in power.
I did not vote for them to enact laws of repression that go against our constitution either.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 10:13:51 AM
The law was followed - until they voted Bill 78. Because of this faulty law, it has become civil disobedience because people fundamentally disagree with the spirit and the letter of the law. It's not like we have guns pulled and we are in apprehended insurrection.
You sure about that? Quebec/Montreal has no laws about protest permits and approved areas?
QuoteIf I follow you, when a government votes a law that goes against the Constitution, and when the government refuses to listen and communicate in good faith, we should all be quiet and obey until the next election. That precludes any possibility of lawful protest - and not so lawful when the government treats them as enemies to silence and trample down. I'm shocked than an American, from a country who worships its Founding Father who actually took arms and killed for their mostly financial revendications - would throw out such a legalistic idea.
Not even close. If the provincial government is breaking a higher law, then presumably your court system will correct it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
Not even close. If the provincial government is breaking a higher law, then presumably your court system will correct it.
The authorities can just do no wrong eh?
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:50:35 AMIt is not a universal Anglo thing. The Brits love their free education as well. It is a North American thing. I am not sure how those wacky Aussies do it.
I don't know how they do it but I know that university funding's a big issue in Australia too.
We're not free. Tuition fees are now up £9000 a year :(
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
You sure about that? Quebec/Montreal has no laws about protest permits and approved areas?
As far as I know, people are free to protest in the streets as much as they want - without legal obligation giving them a route. Most do on their own accord, however, for safety reasons. Not this time.
If they want to protest on a private property they need the advise the administrative body in advance, as long as they remain on the grounds, respect the law and inlaws, and do not attempt to go inside.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
Not even close. If the provincial government is breaking a higher law, then presumably your court system will correct it.
This process is ongoing, right now. And hundreds of lawyers are offering their services
pro bono to help the student bodies, and even the
Barreau du Québec has officially spoken against that law.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
You sure about that? Quebec/Montreal has no laws about protest permits and approved areas?
Wouldn't surprise me. Britain's only recently got them.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
The authorities can just do no wrong eh?
Authorities can do all kinds of wrong. But this particular case is not, AFAICT, one of authorities acting illegally. It's one of a minority objecting to the decision of a legally constituted government to give them less free money than before.
Quote from: Sheilbh on May 23, 2012, 10:23:22 AM
I don't know how they do it but I know that university funding's a big issue in Australia too.
We're not free. Tuition fees are now up £9000 a year :(
Wow. Maybe it is a Anglo-Saxon thing. Or can we blame this on Celts and Normans? I guess if we were like the Normans we would be living like Danes and live off Lego profits.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 10:23:34 AM
As far as I know, people are free to protest in the streets as much as they want - without legal obligation giving them a route. Most do on their own accord, however, for safety reasons. Not this time.
Seriously? I can walk up and down the main drags of Montreal blocking traffic as long as I'm protesting something?
Hey, if that's the way it is, more power to you.
Montreal has a couple of municipal rules for it but IIRC Quebec had none.
Most of our social laws were enacted in the 70s, that would have been unthinkable for them to do that.
Quote from: Grallon on May 23, 2012, 06:42:00 AM
Let us hope this brings down the federalist scumbag and his corrupt government. <_<
G.
The FTQ is just as corrupt and the government, if not more. When did the students refuse their money?
Dude, you are not going to have any contracts or employees if you keep this up.
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
The FTQ is just as corrupt and the government, if not more. When did the students refuse their money?
Combat fire with fire - without the Large Unions' backing the movement would have foundered.
Hmmm I'm beginning to wonder if the Unions don't want to get rid of the Liberals before the Corruption Hearings get in full swing... A PQ government would naturally be more lenient towards them when their very real ties with the mafia are brought to light.
G.
Quote from: Neil on May 23, 2012, 08:04:09 AM
At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.
there's no such thing as a "private" university. There are english and french universities, that's all.
English universities like McGill and Bishop, primarely rely on donations from the wealthy english community. Some special schools like the Polytechnique (engineer school attached to Université de Montréal) do manage well too, considering the donations they receive. However, most universities don't have enough donations for all their programs. And having the tuition fees frozen for so long was a huge mistake.
As Malthus would say, two wrongs don't make a right, but I fear there is no "good" solution here. A freeze in tuition fees is unaceptable, it's un unrealistic ideal and it only brings a rift between some form or private schools and public schools. We want all our universities to perform, not just some of them connected to a wealthy class.
Quote from: Neil on May 23, 2012, 08:04:09 AM
Yeah, but this isn't about education. It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats. Except with Drakken. His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.
At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.
The teachers are largely in favour of the students. They get paid in full pay while they don't have to work, so they're happy.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 08:08:42 AM
I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations? That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.
the majority is for the tuition increase. Even among the students, the majority are not on strike.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 08:24:37 AM
It's not, the fundamental violation of civil liberties is the special law 78 that severly restrict the right to manifest. The law is probably anticonstitutionnal but it will expire before the courts ear any case brought before them on the subject.
The Liberal Party & CAQ mps should have be tar & feathered for allowing the Ministers to pass that law.
law 78 was voted only last friday. There were violent protests before that, notably in Victoriaville, and a lot of vandalism.
The law ain't so bad after the amendments, but probably still goes to far.
Nobody knows how to compromise anymore. Thanks, Tea Party.
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 02:21:37 PM
the majority is for the tuition increase.
Thanks. Still probably should have passed that law though.
I suspect part of what is fueling the protests isn't simply the matter of tuitions increasing, but a more general anger that students, particularly humanities students, face very limited prospects when they do graduate.
Assuming this is true. this is why compromise on the matter of increases isn't going to defuse matters. The increases were only a trigger.
Thing is of course that protesting isn't going to change anything. If the economy sucks, you can protest all you want and it will not make it better; if the current notion that everyone is entitled to a humanities degree and that this degree should mean something is unrealistic, it will remain unrealistic.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:47:28 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 23, 2012, 09:44:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:41:13 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.
Yeah. It is principal and precendent here.
They pay less then any other students in Canada (and still would I believe). Their stubbornness gets no pity from me.
I don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.
Since Quebec receives equalization payments wouldn't my taxes be paying for it as well as yours?
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 23, 2012, 08:04:09 AM
Yeah, but this isn't about education. It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats. Except with Drakken. His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.
At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.
The teachers are largely in favour of the students. They get paid in full pay while they don't have to work, so they're happy.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:25:37 AM
The reason a lot of students are against this hikes, most notably in the social science faculties, is that the debt they will be left repay would be harder for them to repay than - say - those in medecine or finance schools.
Good thing then, if it might discourage some of studying in fields that goes nowhere. We lack accountants and financial analysts, we don't lack historians or sociologist. Again, a question of numbers, not of usefulness.
QuoteSo the hike stings more for them than those with a silver spoon in their mouth.
Basically, they are afraid of working to repay their debt. Like the student leader who didn't pay his rent, they want everything free.
If education doesn't pay, do something else. I wanted to study history, but it doesn't pay, so I did finance. Less fun, more usefulness to me now.
Interest on student loans are below the prime rate and deductible from your income tax. Basically, it costs nothing to study. And they have an increase scholarship wich means more students get those and not only low interest loans.
QuoteAlso, universities here in Quebec have spent a lot of money in estates or other speculative ventures that went sour, rather than invest in better services. They had the money, but they wasted it. Quite a few universities' budget are in deficit and are badly administrated, so much than one of them (UQAM) was almost put under administrative control by the MEQ.
One of them did that, a leftist university, home of Leo-Paul Lauzon. That's their problem, not mine.
Most universities did not do that, why should they be penalized for the incompetence of one administration?
Besides, bad management is inherent to public administration. Yet, I had to suffer a tax hike every year since the Libs got into power. Did you see me trashing some bank of drugstore window?
QuoteIf the government had taken all these in account when negociating fairly with the student bodies, the crisis would have ended much sooner.
Please remind me of the compromises put forth by the students. All I remember them saying is "there is no negociation unless there is no hike in tuition fees this fall".
They signed an agreement and immediatly said they would not recommend it to their members and even more, they did not even read it before signing it... Talk about a bunch of morons. They are university students, but they are unable to comprehend a document they read. They are university student who complain about having to work too hard during a negociations. They are university students complaining about workign too long. I dare say if they are representative of social science students, we could do well with a little less of them. Not only are they stupid, but they are also leazy.
QuoteInstead, the government has taken an incredibly aggressive and polarizing attitude, filled with condescending scorn and a legalistic juste-au-boutism.
Wich is the same they do since 2003. Yet, they've been elected 3 times. And the first time, they were elected with the same platform the party used for Bourassa in 1985.
Most voters are probably social science students unable to read a document... :rolleyes:
QuoteThey literally equal anyone who give even support by omission against the government's policy as being against the government, against the rule of law, and being tantamount to mob rule supporters.
Wich they are. If you stand there and do nothing, worst yet, if you approve of the vandalism, the intimidation and the violence, you are just as gulity as those doing the crime. If you see someone being beaten to death and you don't act, you tell me it's allright? I have doubts.
QuoteIn other words, this government is full of Neils.
Nope. If it were, the army would have been in the streets on day 1 shooting with live ammo.
Right now, what we have is because the Montreal police was too weak to act at first. Protest in Quebec city have been much less worst due to quick action by the police fining everyone as soon as there was a violation of the city laws.
QuoteRather than recognize any semblance of legitimacy to their opponents and talk with them, the government went the "let's teach the kids a lesson and fuck with them" approach
True. Old people thinking they know everything. Wich is what we've had for as long as I can remember, and the other parties don't seem to make way.
Quote
- which is made even badder by the fact that this government has now even less legitimacy thanks to its link to numerous accusations of party sleaze and corruption. The Charbonneau Commission, which is charged to inquire against the sleaze links between the government and different lobby groups, has opened just yesterday.
The FTQ wants the media attention everywhere but on this, wich is why they support the student strike. They are insanely corrupt, even more than the average union and believe intimidation and racketing should be legitimate "business" practice for them. Not that different from the student unions.
Quote
Even the so-called "deal" that was proposed was in fact a bamboozle and a sham; the paper that was signed wasn't what was agreed orally during the negocation processn and the former minister of Education Line Beauchamp went immediately to the press to announce that what would in happen in real was the opposite of what was signed in the deal.
That's the student's excuse for not reading the document. They talked about things that were never discussed at the table. Even the union representatives there said the deal was what they discussed. It's the spokespeople who couldn't admit their failure or bringing back free tuition that led them to this lie. And you're jumping into it just because you don't like the Libs, the only real Federalist option, btw ;)
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 23, 2012, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 23, 2012, 08:04:09 AM
Yeah, but this isn't about education. It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats. Except with Drakken. His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.
At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.
The teachers are largely in favour of the students. They get paid in full pay while they don't have to work, so they're happy.
:rolleyes:
isn't it a fact? They don't teach, and they don't do research since they can't get in the university, not to violate the strike line.
Teachers who support the strike and refuse to work are in violation of their contract. The least they could do if forgive their pay for the duration of the strike.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:34:53 AM
Except that it's not Hansian - it is really the current state of Quebec education. Our current Justice Minister went to say in front of the press yesterday that "civil disobedience" is in fact another, nicer way to say "vandalism". :rolleyes:
And on the other side, you have vandals comparing themselves to Martin Luther King.
Imho, given the proper context, given who talks about civil disobediance, the Justice Minister is not wrong.
And
La Presse is a leftist media, just slightly less so than
Le Devoir. Most of the columnists support the strike and find excuses for the wannabe terrorists.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 09:40:45 AM
Why is the government so threatened here?
because they are a bunch of incompetent socialist morons who believe in nothing but raising taxes and fees we pay instead of cleaning up their act.
Except this time, they attacked something dear to the left, so there are violent protests.
Like so many of your "facts", it's anything but. I know of no professors who do not do research, or write, in the meantime, because few professors are tied to their offices, labs are not closed, and neither are libraries. And no one is happy that they are going to work crazy hours when (if) the semester starts again in August.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 09:48:18 AM
It just went downhill very fast - both due to the government's bad faith and the student bodies' intransigent attitude.
actually, the more the strike goes on, the more popular the government is. They have nothing to lose.
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 10:13:51 AM
The law was followed - until they voted Bill 78. Because of this faulty law, it has become civil disobedience because people fundamentally disagree with the spirit and the letter of the law. It's not like we have guns pulled and we are in apprehended insurrection, people march in the street and deliberately refuse to give their route to the police.
Bullshit. Breaking windows is not part of the law. Throwing rocks at windows of a house and car you believe belong to a journalist is not following the law. Throwing billard balls at other protesters to make it look like they where it by plastic bullets is not following the law. Intimidating teachers and staff into not coming to work is not following the law. Vandalizing colleges&universities is no following the law. Redoing a vote again&again&again&again until you obtain the desired result and then declaring you need a 2/3 majority to reverse it is not following the law. Throwing bricks and asphalt pieces at cops is not following the law. Putting cars on fire or generally thrashing police cars is not following the law.
You are giving in to bullying. Don't complain about the corrupt liberals when you support the corrupt unions way of doing things.
And besides, Bill 78 has not been applied yet. Only Montreal's law against masked protesters.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
Fuck their laws. We'll respect then when they are made for legitimate reasons & not just to stay in power.
I did not vote for them to enact laws of repression that go against our constitution either.
then you should quit your job and riot all the time, all day long.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:18:14 AM
You sure about that? Quebec/Montreal has no laws about protest permits and approved areas?
Protesters are supposed to give warning to the police, but it was not applied. And there were no penalties for this either before bill 78.
Quote
Not even close. If the provincial government is breaking a higher law, then presumably your court system will correct it.
So simple isn't it? But in the twisted logic of the anarcho-communists, the court system is totally corrupt and under the direct influence of the Liberal Party and the mafia (but not the unions who get a free pass for everything).
Quote from: Drakken on May 23, 2012, 10:23:34 AM
This process is ongoing, right now. And hundreds of lawyers are offering their services pro bono to help the student bodies, and even the Barreau du Québec has officially spoken against that law.
You are twisting the facts. All of this happened before the amendments. There has been no comments by the
Barreau about the law after it was voted in its final form.
Quote from: Grallon on May 23, 2012, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
The FTQ is just as corrupt and the government, if not more. When did the students refuse their money?
Combat fire with fire - without the Large Unions' backing the movement would have foundered.
Hmmm I'm beginning to wonder if the Unions don't want to get rid of the Liberals before the Corruption Hearings get in full swing... A PQ government would naturally be more lenient towards them when their very real ties with the mafia are brought to light.
G.
and everyone here is falling for this.
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 23, 2012, 02:57:40 PM
Like so many of your "facts", it's anything but. I know of no professors who do not do research, or write, in the meantime, because few professors are tied to their offices, labs are not closed, and neither are libraries. And no one is happy that they are going to work crazy hours when (if) the semester starts again in August.
about 20% of your tasks are devoted to education. Something you don't do right now if your university is on strike and you refuse or can't go inside.
If you can't cross the picket line, you can't access to your office, where you will have access to entire libraries of virtual published documents.
There is a difference between being a victim of a situation and approving of the situation even supporting it.
When teachers say they will invoke WHS laws to NOT work, I believe they should not be paid. This at best, cowardice, at worst, an attemp to get free pay without working. Unless we're not talking about peaceful protests, after all...
As for the long hours, it remains to be seen if teachers won't get compensation in some form or another. I wouldn't be surprised to hear more from the teachers unions in the coming weeks.
Um I highly doubt anybody here uncritically accepts whatever Grallon has to say. Unless you mean here as in Quebec.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 03:14:19 PM
Um I highly doubt anybody here uncritically accepts whatever Grallon has to say. Unless you mean here as in Quebec.
The Quebecers of this forum who are overwhelmingly supportive of the student riots. Only Oex has not posted about it, so I don't know what he thinks.
Though I have had discussion with some of his colleagues, and they think the same as Drakken and GF. ;)
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 03:14:07 PM
There is a difference between being a victim of a situation and approving of the situation even supporting it.
Yes. There are many differences, in myriads of shades and tint. But these seem to be lost on you.
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
The Quebecers of this forum who are overwhelmingly supportive of the student riots. Only Oex has not posted about it, so I don't know what he thinks.
I have rather decided to invest some time in forums (i.e., not internet) where it matters.
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 23, 2012, 03:17:53 PM
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 03:14:07 PM
There is a difference between being a victim of a situation and approving of the situation even supporting it.
Yes. There are many differences, in myriads of shades and tint. But these seem to be lost on you.
I am talking specifically about the teachers who came in support of the student's strike, those that refuse to obey the court orders, those who protest with the students or organize protests themselves without warning the police of their intentions (like in Quebec city, wich resulted in a lot of students being fined after the teacher called for "an extreme act of civil disobediance") and those who find all kind of excuses for the vandalism and the violence of the protesters.
I thought I was clear enough in my first post, seems I wasn't.
I expect neutrality from the teachers (and other university staff).
Quote from: Oexmelin on May 23, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
I have rather decided to invest some time in forums (i.e., not internet) where it matters.
This kind of thinking will kill Languish for sure :weep:
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 03:03:35 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
Fuck their laws. We'll respect then when they are made for legitimate reasons & not just to stay in power.
I did not vote for them to enact laws of repression that go against our constitution either.
then you should quit your job and riot all the time, all day long.
I prefer to stay on the sidelines, thank you very much. Plus, I'm old now.
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 03:14:19 PM
Um I highly doubt anybody here uncritically accepts whatever Grallon has to say. Unless you mean here as in Quebec.
What's that supposed to mean? <_<
In any case I've been in favor of the tuition increase since the beginning - and I still am. But I became firmly supportive of the protests when it became clear this government was manipulating the students in the hope of weaseling its way out of the looming defeat its own systemic corruption was about to bring. This country cannot afford another Liberal mandate.
EDIT: I should say 'in favor of some sort of tuition increase'. The most reasonable proposal is one circulating more and more now: a proportional yearly indexation.
G.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:24:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
The authorities can just do no wrong eh?
Authorities can do all kinds of wrong. But this particular case is not, AFAICT, one of authorities acting illegally. It's one of a minority objecting to the decision of a legally constituted government to give them less free money than before.
Less free money? Lolwut?
I'm not sure why the fuck I'm paying way more taxes than the rest of the country. The whole point is so we get cheaper social services. If they're gonna start charging as much as Ontario for school fees, then they better cut taxes.
Quote from: Zoupa on May 23, 2012, 06:56:22 PM
Less free money? Lolwut?
I'm not sure why the fuck I'm paying way more taxes than the rest of the country. The whole point is so we get cheaper social services. If they're gonna start charging as much as Ontario for school fees, then they better cut taxes.
This.
Quote from: Zoupa on May 23, 2012, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 23, 2012, 10:24:54 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
The authorities can just do no wrong eh?
Authorities can do all kinds of wrong. But this particular case is not, AFAICT, one of authorities acting illegally. It's one of a minority objecting to the decision of a legally constituted government to give them less free money than before.
Less free money? Lolwut?
I'm not sure why the fuck I'm paying way more taxes than the rest of the country. The whole point is so we get cheaper social services. If they're gonna start charging as much as Ontario for school fees, then they better cut taxes.
Your taxes are needed to maintain the construction scams that keep Don Corleone rich and Jean Charest in charge. And Grey Wolf's kid in daycare.
That's right! Vote Liberal.
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
Quote from: Valmy on May 23, 2012, 03:14:19 PM
Um I highly doubt anybody here uncritically accepts whatever Grallon has to say. Unless you mean here as in Quebec.
The Quebecers of this forum who are overwhelmingly supportive of the student riots. Only Oex has not posted about it, so I don't know what he thinks.
Though I have had discussion with some of his colleagues, and they think the same as Drakken and GF. ;)
You know I'm only in favor of the students riots because it fucks with the esthablish order & that's something we desperetly need.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
That's right! Vote Liberal.
You don't even get mad anymore about people messing up your nick. :(
What about if we called you Gay Fox?
Quote from: Neil on May 23, 2012, 08:43:51 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
That's right! Vote Liberal.
You don't even get mad anymore about people messing up your nick. :(
What about if we called you Gay Fox?
It's been done. It hasn't been a fresh insult since we all came here from Paradox OT and realized that not only could we discuss topics here that were banned there, we could also get away with a lot more strong language, sexual innuendo, and name-calling.
OWS is chilling in Washington Square Park in solidarity with these students. There is probably only about 20 people but there are like 40 cops.
Quote from: garbon on May 23, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
OWS is chilling in Washington Square Park in solidarity with these students. There is probably only about 20 people but there are like 40 cops.
LOLz, OWS in Seattle is always a "crowd" of 80 at Westlake Center. They bunch 50 together and spread the other 30 out in hopes it will look bigger. :lol:
Quote from: Neil on May 23, 2012, 08:43:51 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
That's right! Vote Liberal.
You don't even get mad anymore about people messing up your nick. :(
What about if we called you Gay Fox?
That never bothered me.
It's un peu amusant that you don't mind Gay Fox but being called your real name deranges you very beaucoup.
Quote from: Grallon on May 23, 2012, 04:32:29 PM
when it became clear this government was manipulating the students in the hope of weaseling its way out of the looming defeat its own systemic corruption was about to bring.
It became clear to me around February, yet, I still don't support the student's "cause".
Just because someone sets a trap for you, you don't have to jump right in it.
As I said before, all the students had to do was to play the gov't game, agree with the general principle of a tuition increase, but negociate for a softer hike, an increase in student's financial help and a guarantee that their other fees would decrease immediatly, and maybe even permanently if it can be proven that there is indeed a lot of waste in universities (there is waste, but not enough to make it 0$/term, really, that should be obvious).
Right now, they look like spoiled kids who don't know what they want. Whenever teachers ask for better&bigger single offices (instead of sharing one), they approve. When they ask of a pay increase, they approve. They want smaller classes and less hours, they approve. They don't want to be evaluated, they approve. Yet, they want free or nearly free tuition fees. It is illogical.
QuoteThis country cannot afford another Liberal mandate.
The country will do fine, it's my actual province I fear for ;)
Quote
EDIT: I should say 'in favor of some sort of tuition increase'. The most reasonable proposal is one circulating more and more now: a proportional yearly indexation.
not enough, imho.
But we should have tuition fees modulated by field of study. Some specialties cost more than others. If social sciences believe they can do away with computers to save money, so be it (it was one of the student's proposals to freeze the computer budget, btw, among other things wich would have sacrificed more performing faculties; talk about "solidarity".)
Quote from: Zoupa on May 23, 2012, 06:56:22 PM
I'm not sure why the fuck I'm paying way more taxes than the rest of the country. The whole point is so we get cheaper social services. If they're gonna start charging as much as Ontario for school fees, then they better cut taxes.
You still get free health care coverage, 7$ a day childcare that actually costs you more than before when you had the tax break (while costing more to the State, yeah socialism!), free/nearly free education from elementary to college (I don't think they have free college education in Ontario), you'll still be paying 2000$ less than the average Ontarian to send you kids to school, you still have non toll-pay roads except one bridge to cross over to Laval (great bridge btw!) and one future maybe on the south shore. You still get free in vitro fertilisation for your girlfriend, provided you wait a couple of years on the waiting list. You still have the priviledge of coming to a publicly paid arena in Quebec city, and you kept the Canadians because the government intervend to keep it in Montreal when it was sold to Gillet, before the Molson re-acquired it. Oh, and you have Formula 1 racing because you pay way more taxes than the rest of the country, don't forget it.
And in a not so distant future, you might even have a baseball team again in Montreal. With a newly built stadium paid for by the province and the city.
And my home town thanks you very much for giving us a contract at twice the price to build new wagons for your metro transit system. The Mexicans and the Chinese building some of the parts also thank you. This is another reason why you pay a lot more taxes than the rest of the country.
Also, Éric Lapointe would like to thank you for subsidizing his cocaine consumption, and Xavier Dolan is really happy of the free trips to Cannes, and so are the 2 dozen people accompanying him from Quebec's delegation, all in first class airplan and hotel :)
'tis another reason why you pay more taxes than the rest of the country, Canadians don't really have a culture, their good directors and comedians prefer to work in Hollywood for 8 times the salary and books as well as painting aren't really subsidized (not to the extent of television and cinema). Unless it's a portrait of her Majesty the Queen Elizabeth II, or someone else from the Royal family.
So basically, until you vote for a party promising to cut spending (for wich there are now a grand total of 0), you are fucked. You will always pay more taxes than the rest of the country, even if the tuition fees where to increase 10fold, it still would not cover for the other expenses of our government.
And I am not trolling you, I am dead serious. You just don't seem to realize how much we are a socialist nation and how much more we are spending on dumb stuff just to please the populace compared to the other provinces.
We ain't Alberta, we don't have nearly as much oil and the little we have, most people don't want to touch it. Natural gaz is even worst. Also, let's not touch the mines, strange things might come out of the earth. And don't talk about building a new dam, some artist is gonna come down on us.
So basically, we have natural resources we don't want to exploit, we have costly&inefficient services we don't want to cut, the medias have us convinced that any single cut in a government budget, no matter where, no matter how deep or light will threaten the space-time continuum and a populace generally as ignorant of financial&economics matter as the average Albertan redneck is of science.
Oh, I forgot: it says "Videotron" on your cable bill, not "Rogers", because the government intervene to keep this company here, paying the penalties and striking the asset from its books because it became worthless after a few years (yet, Mr Péladeau doesn't seem so bad).
So that's why, in essence, you pay more taxes than everywhere in Canada. 3 major political parties propose you pay more and one that you pay the same but make things a little different. The one that propose you pay less and stop paying for things that lead to abuse like school boards who let their schools rot or public childcare program that means the biggest contributor to the party in power gets the license is no longer existent. Their program was not popular enough for my fellow Quebecer, hence it disapeared. I was disapointed, even frustrated. But somehow, I managed to contain myself and not break any windows when I did not get what I wanted... I must be some kind of superhuman ;)
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 08:24:09 PM
You know I'm only in favor of the students riots because it fucks with the esthablish order & that's something we desperetly need.
it fucks the middle class people trying to get to work, it fucks the guy with the little corner store that can no longer get insurance and his forced to sell to a bigger company like Couche-Tard.
That's who you're fucking. Not the "establishment".
Pierre-Karl Péladeau is still happy, and Desmarais is in Sagard, running his businesses from there, when he's not in Toronto. So that makes 2 out of 5 billionaires who don't care about it, on a personal level.
But if you believe that calling Sophie Durocher a "fucking whore" because her husband is against the strike, be my guest. I believe in freedom of expression, even when it's dumb. I somehow doubt Stephen Harper and Jean Charest where deeply disturbed by the signs.
Quebec is a North American Greece... without the proud [ancient] history.
How insightful. Please don't hesitate if you have any more gems like that.
Quote from: Zoupa on May 24, 2012, 12:42:40 AM
How insightful. Please don't hesitate if you have any more gems like that.
Gems like that are self-evident.
Good thing you took the time to post then.
They like to protest and get other people to pay for their stuff, so I guess they've got that going for them :unsure:
Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services. But what it doesn't justify is why the province can overspend year after year (i.e. beyond the revenue generated by its higher taxes), and then turn to the "have" provinces to make up the difference, and not understand why the "have" provinces would eventually grow annoyed by that (particularly as they can't afford to offer Quebec level services). The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.
I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 11:45:27 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 23, 2012, 08:24:09 PM
You know I'm only in favor of the students riots because it fucks with the esthablish order & that's something we desperetly need.
it fucks the middle class people trying to get to work, it fucks the guy with the little corner store that can no longer get insurance and his forced to sell to a bigger company like Couche-Tard.
That's who you're fucking. Not the "establishment".
Pierre-Karl Péladeau is still happy, and Desmarais is in Sagard, running his businesses from there, when he's not in Toronto. So that makes 2 out of 5 billionaires who don't care about it, on a personal level.
But if you believe that calling Sophie Durocher a "fucking whore" because her husband is against the strike, be my guest. I believe in freedom of expression, even when it's dumb. I somehow doubt Stephen Harper and Jean Charest where deeply disturbed by the signs.
I never said any of that. What makes you think I approve everything they do?
You are right that we do subsidize too many things but there is no culture of private venture money in Quebec. The Church use to control, we replaced it with a laic government.
Establishment(thats where the h is!) is the political class. What makes you think I hate Desmarais & Peladeau?
Middle Class? I'm middle class, I get to work fine everyday. It fucks with the Babyboomers and you know what? Fuck the Babyboomers.
I voted for the ADQ once & was let down, hard. The party disappeared because without Mario, the party is nothing.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 24, 2012, 02:06:44 AM
Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services. But what it doesn't justify is why the province can overspend year after year (i.e. beyond the revenue generated by its higher taxes), and then turn to the "have" provinces to make up the difference, and not understand why the "have" provinces would eventually grow annoyed by that (particularly as they can't afford to offer Quebec level services). The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.
I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.
If you dont like Perequation, leave Canada. Deal with it.
:angry:
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 24, 2012, 02:06:44 AM
Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services. But what it doesn't justify is why the province can overspend year after year (i.e. beyond the revenue generated by its higher taxes), and then turn to the "have" provinces to make up the difference, and not understand why the "have" provinces would eventually grow annoyed by that (particularly as they can't afford to offer Quebec level services). The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.
I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.
There is another angle to it - as I said above, it is my impression that while money was the trigger, what is really fueling the protest is a larger issue; and that is that university students (particularly humanities students) feel a sense that they don't have much of a future.
Not that I think protesting will help matters. The problems are systemic. We have created a system in which the participating students are lead to believe that a degree is the ticket to employment, when at best it is a prerequisite to some forms of employment. This leads to the familiar sight of students with degrees but no ability to get a job.
Ironically enough, the easier it is to get a degree and the larger percentage of the population that has degrees, the more pronounced the problem. Part of the problem is that a university degree has prestige in the general population far in excess of its actual economic value, leading many students to go for a humanities degree just because they feel that they should, not because they have a burning intellectual curiousity about whatever subject they are studying - it becomes merely an extention of high school.
Hence student frustration. They are told they need to go to university - sure it is a lot of fun (at least I thought it was) but you are putting your life on hold for what amounts to another 4 years, or more, of school. Then they find out it really isn't that useful. Meanwhile, they are 4 years behind and in debt. Now, in Quebec, they are being told that the debt is going to increase, while with the economy is wheezing - so they have to pay more to face worse prospects.
I can sympathize with their plight. Really, if I new what I known now when I was a student, I'd have gone into a more vocational education - I lucked out, but only through some lucky chances.
Quote from: viper37 on May 23, 2012, 11:18:48 PM
...
Right now, they look like spoiled kids who don't know what they want. Whenever teachers ask for better&bigger single offices (instead of sharing one), they approve. When they ask of a pay increase, they approve. They want smaller classes and less hours, they approve. They don't want to be evaluated, they approve. Yet, they want free or nearly free tuition fees. It is illogical.
No Viper - as I keep saying this has gone beyond the tuition thing for some time now - if you'd care to visit Montreal and see/feel for yourself you'd see. Last night they were a few hundreds near my place on the Plateau banging on all sorts of pots and pans - and you know what - the neighborhood came out and joined them: older geezers, kids, all sorts of people. It was very festive.
And I'm tired of having them compared to spoiled brats. Spoiled brats don't spend 14 weeks in the streets no matter the weather, the gases, the police, the beatings, the lost eyes... Spoiled brats run at the first sigh of trouble. Are you seeing them run?
Those who've been in the streets for 3 months have changed - they've fought and bonded together. You may expect them to go and vote en masse come the election - and it won't be for either the Liberals or the CAQ.
I wish Leo would run! :wub:
QuoteThe country will do fine, it's my actual province I fear for
Canada doesn't concern or interest me - so long as they mind their business and don't interfere. And you know very well the only country I was referring to is ours.
Quotenot enough, imho.
But we should have tuition fees modulated by field of study. Some specialties cost more than others. If social sciences believe they can do away with computers to save money, so be it (it was one of the student's proposals to freeze the computer budget, btw, among other things wich would have sacrificed more performing faculties; talk about "solidarity".)
That's the main gripe for many - they have to pay the same tuition while their employability is far less than those in medicine or management. But some will cry about the sacrosanct equality principle...
In any case the tuition problem is minor now and could be worked out if there was some will to do so from the Liberal Govt. But we all know Charest don't we? He's an arrogant and stubborn donkey. And what do you do with stubborn donkeys? You beat them until they start moving again. Hence why the protests are becoming more useful - not less. :P
G.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 24, 2012, 02:06:44 AM
Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services.
We don't get "better" social services, we only get more social services of dubious quality.
QuoteThe whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.
I agree. Provinces should perceive what they need, and send a part of their budget to the Federal government for common expenses like defense, postal services, transport security and a few other things.
Quote
I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.
true, unfortunately.
Quote from: Malthus on May 24, 2012, 08:08:49 AM
There is another angle to it - as I said above, it is my impression that while money was the trigger, what is really fueling the protest is a larger issue; and that is that university students (particularly humanities students) feel a sense that they don't have much of a future.
Oh, I don't doubt it. Life prospects are worse for tones of people under 30 compared to their parents' generation - and I'd also say the diminished prospects includes (even more so, arguably) working class people, not just those with university degrees. I have considerable sympathy for that viewpoint and frustration with the current state of affairs. Add into that mix increasing anger with the political and especially the economic elites, and a boiling over becomes more understandable.
On the other hand, the tuition is already so incredibly modest and the increases each year so small that it's hard to feel sympathy for them, especially when the low tuition (like many other Quebec services) is partly being paid for by others. In that way, it has a parallel with the Greek situation - yes the situation is shittier now than it was, say, 20 years ago, and I can understand the frustration with that.... but with everyone tightening their belts, why should you continue to get a free ride at the expense of those who've already tightened theirs? Also, the actions of the protesters themselves are quite distasteful, although that's likely because protests are just often unfocused and led by assholes.
Anyway, the problems are, as you say, systemic and protesting likely won't achieve anything. In the end, all I can say as I wish I had been born a Boomer. :P
Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2012, 08:39:06 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 24, 2012, 02:06:44 AM
The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.
I agree. Provinces should perceive what they need, and send a part of their budget to the Federal government for common expenses like defense, postal services, transport security and a few other things.
Yes, yes & yes.
All 400 millions* of it from us.
*Not an exact figure.
Quote from: Grallon on May 24, 2012, 08:30:55 AM
if you'd care to visit Montreal and see/feel for yourself you'd see.
Honestly, I avoid the island. I cross over it from Mascouche to Longueuil, but that's it. Ain't no way I'm going downtown Montreal with my car. Ain't no way I'm getting my car vandalized or breath tear gaz for fun.
QuoteLast night they were a few hundreds near my place on the Plateau banging on all sorts of pots and pans - and you know what - the neighborhood came out and joined them: older geezers, kids, all sorts of people. It was very festive.
this is the problem of Montreal, always taking the streets for anything.
QuoteAnd I'm tired of having them compared to spoiled brats. Spoiled brats don't spend 14 weeks in the streets no matter the weather, the gases, the police, the beatings, the lost eyes... Spoiled brats run at the first sigh of trouble. Are you seeing them run?
Spoiled brats cry until they get what they want. If they weren't spoiled brats, they'd be working and studying, while they are doing neither.
QuoteThose who've been in the streets for 3 months have changed - they've fought and bonded together. You may expect them to go and vote en masse come the election - and it won't be for either the Liberals or the CAQ.
Good for them. Québec Solidaire has promised free tuition for everyone, the PQ has promised them a freeze. It's all they ever needed to do, really.
Meanwhile, vandals should be jailed and their organizations fined.
Quote
I wish Leo would run! :wub:
After Dolan and his crush on GND we'll have you a crush on the young one? Why am I not surprised? :D
Quote
Canada doesn't concern or interest me - so long as they mind their business and don't interfere. And you know very well the only country I was referring to is ours.
But we ain't a country yet. And frankly, somedays, I'm happy we are not.
Quote
That's the main gripe for many - they have to pay the same tuition while their employability is far less than those in medicine or management. But some will cry about the sacrosanct equality principle...
So-so-solidarité, as they say ;)
Anyway, the government has promised them payback of their loans based on their annual income. It helps alleviate the difference. Anyway, working 2 jobs to re-pay your student loans for a few years ain't that bad.
Quote
In any case the tuition problem is minor now
It's never been a problem, actually.
QuoteBut we all know Charest don't we? He's an arrogant and stubborn donkey. And what do you do with stubborn donkeys? You beat them until they start moving again. Hence why the protests are becoming more useful - not less. :P
Oh, yeah protests are so effective that we are now closer than ever to a 4th Liberal government.
G.
[/quote]
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 24, 2012, 08:45:47 AM
Quote from: Malthus on May 24, 2012, 08:08:49 AM
There is another angle to it - as I said above, it is my impression that while money was the trigger, what is really fueling the protest is a larger issue; and that is that university students (particularly humanities students) feel a sense that they don't have much of a future.
Oh, I don't doubt it. Life prospects are worse for tones of people under 30 compared to their parents' generation - and I'd also say the diminished prospects includes (even more so, arguably) working class people, not just those with university degrees. I have considerable sympathy for that viewpoint and frustration with the current state of affairs. Add into that mix increasing anger with the political and especially the economic elites, and a boiling over becomes more understandable.
On the other hand, the tuition is already so incredibly modest and the increases each year so small that it's hard to feel sympathy for them, especially when the low tuition (like many other Quebec services) is partly being paid for by others. In that way, it has a parallel with the Greek situation - yes the situation is shittier now than it was, say, 20 years ago, and I can understand the frustration with that.... but with everyone tightening their belts, why should you continue to get a free ride at the expense of those who've already tightened theirs? Also, the actions of the protesters themselves are quite distasteful, although that's likely because protests are just often unfocused and led by assholes.
Anyway, the problems are, as you say, systemic and protesting likely won't achieve anything. In the end, all I can say as I wish I had been born a Boomer. :P
Because the boomers are forgetting to tight their own belts. See the raise of retirement age in 2023 instead of right now!
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 24, 2012, 08:45:47 AM
Oh, I don't doubt it. Life prospects are worse for tones of people under 30 compared to their parents' generation - and I'd also say the diminished prospects includes (even more so, arguably) working class people, not just those with university degrees.
Therein lies part of the problem - the notion that a university degree is a sign of not being "working class", or worse, an entitlement (at public expense) of the non-working class.
When the percentage of people with degrees approaches 50%, this starts to look like Lake Wobegon - you know, the place where everyone is above average. ;)
This is compounded when getting a degree simply doesn't deliver the middle-class status that was advertised (if not explicitly, then by implication).
QuoteI have considerable sympathy for that viewpoint and frustration with the current state of affairs. Add into that mix increasing anger with the political and especially the economic elites, and a boiling over becomes more understandable.
On the other hand, the tuition is already so incredibly modest and the increases each year so small that it's hard to feel sympathy for them, especially when the low tuition (like many other Quebec services) is partly being paid for by others. In that way, it has a parallel with the Greek situation - yes the situation is shittier now than it was, say, 20 years ago, and I can understand the frustration with that.... but with everyone tightening their belts, why should you continue to get a free ride at the expense of those who've already tightened theirs? Also, the actions of the protesters themselves are quite distasteful, although that's likely because protests are just often unfocused and led by assholes.
Anyway, the problems are, as you say, systemic and protesting likely won't achieve anything. In the end, all I can say as I wish I had been born a Boomer. :P
Oh, I agree. It can be very annoying seeing people protest about not being subsidized by others sufficiently. What is worse is that the more a university education becomes accessible to all for low cost, the less a degree will be worth to those who get it, making the systemic problem worse.
You know I have several thoughts about the situation in Quebec, but in the end I don't think I'm fully informed enough to really put them down in writing, so to speak.
As for the value of a university education, if I was giving advice to an 18 year old it would be to go to trade school.
Quote from: Barrister on May 24, 2012, 09:23:37 AM
As for the value of a university education, if I was giving advice to an 18 year old it would be to go to trade school.
I think these days kids coming out of High School have to be really focussed on getting work. The days of delaying adulthood, at least in the workplace, are coming to an end.
Quote from: Barrister on May 24, 2012, 09:23:37 AM
You know I have several thoughts about the situation in Quebec, but in the end I don't think I'm fully informed enough to really put them down in writing, so to speak.
Since when has that ever stopped anyone on Languish?! :P
QuoteAs for the value of a university education, if I was giving advice to an 18 year old it would be to go to trade school.
Me too.
Quote from: Valmy on May 24, 2012, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 24, 2012, 09:23:37 AM
As for the value of a university education, if I was giving advice to an 18 year old it would be to go to trade school.
I think these days kids coming out of High School have to be really focussed on getting work. The days of delaying adulthood, at least in the workplace, are coming to an end.
Which may well be a good thing. It's hitting me that in a few years I'll be 40 with two pre-schoolers running around to raise.
Quote from: Barrister on May 24, 2012, 09:37:58 AM
Quote from: Valmy on May 24, 2012, 09:25:56 AM
Quote from: Barrister on May 24, 2012, 09:23:37 AM
As for the value of a university education, if I was giving advice to an 18 year old it would be to go to trade school.
I think these days kids coming out of High School have to be really focussed on getting work. The days of delaying adulthood, at least in the workplace, are coming to an end.
Which may well be a good thing. It's hitting me that in a few years I'll be 40 with two pre-schoolers running around to raise.
:console: Your not alone. 46 and a first grader right now. When she graduates I'll be 58 and in no mood loafers.
Will your mood loafers not fit any more? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 24, 2012, 10:40:48 AM
Will your mood loafers not fit any more? :huh:
for loafers. ;)
Sometimes I freak out realising when Ariel graduates high school I'll be 43. There is no good way, guys.
Quote from: Grey Fox on May 24, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
Sometimes I freak out realising when Ariel graduates high school I'll be 43. There is no good way, guys.
Well you want to avoid being in the situation where you want to retire, but are still supporting kids in high school or university.
Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2012, 08:49:39 AM
...Ain't no way I'm getting my car vandalized or breath tear gaz for fun.
...
this is the problem of Montreal, always taking the streets for anything.
...
Christ you can be so provincial! :P
G.
Map of march route provided to police.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic7.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F4fbe711aecad04045000000e%2Fmontreal-student-march-map.jpg&hash=6de85ec292585cd3f219fc4e2f626e8f2f4a20e0)
Quote from: Grallon on May 24, 2012, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: viper37 on May 24, 2012, 08:49:39 AM
...Ain't no way I'm getting my car vandalized or breath tear gaz for fun.
...
this is the problem of Montreal, always taking the streets for anything.
...
Christ you can be so provincial! :P
G.
Yes, I am provincial. In a weird, silly way, I always thought we built paved roads for cars to ride on. I don't know where I got that idea from.
:lol: @ map
:lol:
It's 8:11 PM - the pots and pans pandemonium has begun a few minutes ago. And the neighbors are all out there too! And the motorists are joining in. Gods this is invigorating! Why? Because for the first time in a long while it seems we are part of something bigger - as if the people was awakening again. And the best part? This is all thanks to the idiocy, stubbornness and arrogance of the federalists! ^_^
G.
Are they chanting "We Are Argentina!"???
Except they're uniting behind an evil cause. If they just wanted to beat down Charest, that'd be fine. Instead, they're helping someone even worse than Charest: Students.
Quote from: Neil on May 24, 2012, 08:20:00 PM
Except they're uniting behind an evil cause. If they just wanted to beat down Charest, that'd be fine. Instead, they're helping someone even worse than Charest: Students.
Awww but who could be against Leo!? He's young, smart, charismatic and so cute! And he's surprisingly popular with all sorts of demographics. Some are even beginning to name their unborn male children Leo for Christ sake! And barely 20 can you imagine!?
http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2012/05/23/les-discussions-reprendront-elles (http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2012/05/23/les-discussions-reprendront-elles)
We have similar laws in Hong Kong. Anybody who wants to organise a protest has to submit the route to police and obtain prior approval.
For Gay Fox:
QuoteHow a bizarre legal case involving a mysterious billionaire could force 1.2 million Canadians to be married, against their will.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/05/quebec_s_de_facto_spouses_the_bizarre_legal_case_that_could_force_1_2_million_canadians_to_be_married_against_their_will_.html
Its slate, so I don't know if it is true or not. But I got a giggle out of it.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 25, 2012, 06:38:30 AM
For Gay Fox:
QuoteHow a bizarre legal case involving a mysterious billionaire could force 1.2 million Canadians to be married, against their will.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/05/quebec_s_de_facto_spouses_the_bizarre_legal_case_that_could_force_1_2_million_canadians_to_be_married_against_their_will_.html
Its slate, so I don't know if it is true or not. But I got a giggle out of it.
Yes, it'sthe
Eric vs Lola case. i spoke about it quite a few times here, and it's pending decision in the Supreme Court.
But your quote is erroneous: it's 1.2 million
Quebecers (as we are under civil law and we grant no advantage to life partners when unmarried) that would find themselves with common law spouses and forced to pay alimony to them (in addition to the children) in case of separation.
Slate wrong about something? Shocking.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 25, 2012, 06:55:33 AM
Slate wrong about something? Shocking.
Despite their posturing, people in Quebec are actually Canadians. :D
Quote from: Grallon on May 24, 2012, 07:17:32 PM
It's 8:11 PM - the pots and pans pandemonium has begun a few minutes ago. And the neighbors are all out there too! And the motorists are joining in. Gods this is invigorating! Why? Because for the first time in a long while it seems we are part of something bigger - as if the people was awakening again. And the best part? This is all thanks to the idiocy, stubbornness and arrogance of the federalists! ^_^
G.
Yeah, who cares what the cause is? It's that wonderful feeling of togetherness that counts.
One wonders just how quickly an independent Quebec would turn into the Greece of North America ... :lol:
If that makes you feel better to think it would be the case - by all means indulge in that fantasy. :P
G.
Quote from: Grallon on May 25, 2012, 09:23:10 AM
If that makes you feel better to think it would be the case - by all means indulge in that fantasy. :P
G.
A province that is deepest in debt per-capita in Canada, currently accepting massive transfer payments from the rest of Canada, and the political party most interested in seperation is sympathetic to the largest mass-movement in years currently paralizing the government - which is all about agitating for more "free" social services on behalf of non-workers? :hmm:
Sounds like a good prescription for future financial stability to me, right? I'm sure that, if in power in an independent Quebec, the new government would have no problems whatsoever reigning in spending and balancing its budget. :D
Malthus does make a good point Grallon. If you guys went independent would you be willing to have the massive cuts to public spending and services required? :hmm:
Quote from: Grallon on May 24, 2012, 08:33:18 PM
And he's surprisingly popular with all sorts of demographics. Some are even beginning to name their unborn male children Leo for Christ sake! And barely 20 can you imagine!?
we got that with every single reality tv show. This ain't no different for all the
matantes* watching TVA/LCN all day long.
*approximate translation: auntie, as in Bart's Simpsons aunt. Except they may not have a McGyver fetish.
Quote from: garbon on May 25, 2012, 07:01:32 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 25, 2012, 06:55:33 AM
Slate wrong about something? Shocking.
Despite their posturing, people in Quebec are actually Canadians. :D
we have a different civil code. The case is basically about having the same "protection" for non married couples as in the rest of Canada.
Quote from: Malthus on May 25, 2012, 08:24:47 AM
One wonders just how quickly an independent Quebec would turn into the Greece of North America ... :lol:
3-5 years, at most.
Quote from: Malthus on May 25, 2012, 09:48:08 AM
Sounds like a good prescription for future financial stability to me, right? I'm sure that, if in power in an independent Quebec, the new government would have no problems whatsoever reigning in spending and balancing its budget. :D
The party line is that we will collect 100% of our taxes and avoid spending for a "warmongering army" and contend ourselves with "civil defense force". From the same people that tear apart their shirts when Quebec doesn't get the biggest share of military contracts from Canada...
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2012, 09:59:45 AM
If you guys went independent would you be willing to have the massive cuts to public spending and services required? :hmm:
What do you think? :rolleyes: The actual seperatist movement does not have anything to do about having a different identity, it's all about being more socialist than the rest of Canada. Wich is disgusting and eventually doomed to failure. I am unaware of any communist independant movement succeeding in recent history, to achieve independance with democratic means.
Quote from: Valmy on May 25, 2012, 09:59:45 AM
Malthus does make a good point Grallon. If you guys went independent would you be willing to have the massive cuts to public spending and services required? :hmm:
People are fed up with corrupt elites whose privileges can no longer be justified since they care nothing about the consequences of their incessant and ruthless cash-grab. That is something you can see everywhere in the West. Here it's also colored with a nationalist undercurrent.
As for your question: this was done in the 90s - when the Prime Minister at the time (Lucien Bouchard) called upon the people to make sacrifices to achieve a zero deficit. It was achieved - for a time - because the reasons for such sacrifices were explained to them by a leader whom they trusted. Sadly he chose to step down in early 2001 - was followed by a lesser man and then the Liberals came to power... We're now seeing the results of 10 years of tenure by *that* government.
G.
Quote from: viper37 on May 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM
What do you think? :rolleyes: The actual seperatist movement does not have anything to do about having a different identity, it's all about being more socialist than the rest of Canada. Wich is disgusting and eventually doomed to failure. I am unaware of any communist independant movement succeeding in recent history, to achieve independance with democratic means.
Are you really this blinded by your ideological hatred? Communists really! :rolleyes:
What you see in Quebec, and in in several Western countries, is a form of fascism - where corporate unions walk hand in hand with private corporations - with the bureaucracy in the middle. The configuration may differ from country to country but the end result is the same: democracy neutralized and reduced to a facade.
Electing a government from the right will not change that - all it will change is the window dressing.
G.
Death to the fascist union oppressors.
I banged on my pot! Solidarity.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2012, 05:52:47 PM
Death to the fascist union oppressors.
Fuck the Unions
Quote from: katmai on May 26, 2012, 01:05:28 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 25, 2012, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 25, 2012, 05:52:47 PM
Death to the fascist union oppressors.
Fuck the Unions
<_<
Don't worry, your corporate enemy is the entertainment industry...thus your union is easily less evil. :P
Yet I'm also a teamster so hah! :P
Quote from: Grallon on May 25, 2012, 03:27:14 PM
Sadly he chose to step down in early 2001 - was followed by a lesser man and then the Liberals came to power... We're now seeing the results of 10 years of tenure by *that* government.
G.
He was pushed out of the way by his own party for being too "right-wing", "not enough of a seperatist" and no self respecting Péquiste will now admit ever liking him.
Here's another protest for you Grallon (http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/201205/26/01-4528946-apres-les-droits-de-scolarite-les-immigrants.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_BO2_quebec_canada_178_accueil_POS2)
The people now want to keep the criminal immigrants here and stop deporting them. Will you join the party?
Quote from: Grallon on May 25, 2012, 03:36:25 PM
Are you really this blinded by your ideological hatred? Communists really! :rolleyes:
What is Québec Solidaire according to you if not communist? And what is la Classe if not a anarcho-communist group?
QuoteWhat you see in Quebec, and in in several Western countries, is a form of fascism - where corporate unions walk hand in hand with private corporations - with the bureaucracy in the middle.
Wich is a damn good reason not to join union supported protesters in their march against the government.
Wich is why we must get rid of the unions influence in our politics.
Entrepreneurs cooperate too much with scums like the FTQ, but they are left to fend for themselves, with no support at all, either from the government or the media.
Quote
Electing a government from the right will not change that - all it will change is the window dressing.
It should be attempted first, before saying it won't work.
Quote from: viper37 on May 26, 2012, 01:21:11 PM
What is Québec Solidaire according to you if not communist? And what is la Classe if not a anarcho-communist group?
Québec Solidaire is a marginal party and La Classe nothing more than an ad-hoc movement.
QuoteWhich is a damn good reason not to join union supported protesters in their march against the government.
Which is why we must get rid of the unions influence in our politics.
Entrepreneurs cooperate too much with scums like the FTQ, but they are left to fend for themselves, with no support at all, either from the government or the media.
As far as scums go - both groups are just as bad. I'll give you the unions if I can put a tight leash on private businesses.
Quote
It should be attempted first, before saying it won't work.
Look at what's happening in Ottawa - that's all the demonstration you need.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on May 26, 2012, 02:40:56 PM
Québec Solidaire is a marginal party and La Classe nothing more than an ad-hoc movement.
And yet, they define the politics. The PQ has turned left to accomodate QS fans, and the FEUQ has radicalized itself since l'ASSE split from its ranks.
Quote
As far as scums go - both groups are just as bad. I'll give you the unions if I can put a tight leash on private businesses.
We are already on a tight leash, while the unions, and those who cooperate with them have impunity.
You've seen he latest fiscal scam of Accurso? This was done with the express accord of the FTQ who participated in the scheme to help him avoid taxes.
Quote
Look at what's happening in Ottawa - that's all the demonstration you need.
You mean the deficit shrinking? The party following its promises? It aint so bad, so far. I disagree with a number of their policies, most notably their weird royalty fetish, and their anti-science stance, but in terms of ideological cuts, we're billions of light years from Iran. Or the GOP.