Civil Unrest in Quebec

[Grey Fox]

Dude, you are not going to have any contracts or employees if you keep this up.

[Grallon]

The FTQ is just as corrupt and the government, if not more.  When did the students refuse their money?

Combat fire with fire - without the Large Unions' backing the movement would have foundered.   

Hmmm I'm beginning to wonder if the Unions don't want to get rid of the Liberals before the Corruption Hearings get in full swing...  A PQ government would naturally be more lenient towards them when their very real ties with the mafia are brought to light.



G.

[viper37]

At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.

there's no such thing as a "private" university.  There are english and french universities, that's all.

English universities like McGill and Bishop, primarely rely on donations from the wealthy english community.  Some special schools like the Polytechnique (engineer school attached to Université de Montréal) do manage well too, considering the donations they receive.  However, most universities don't have enough donations for all their programs.  And having the tuition fees frozen for so long was a huge mistake.

As Malthus would say, two wrongs don't make a right, but I fear there is no "good" solution here.  A freeze in tuition fees is unaceptable, it's un unrealistic ideal and it only brings a rift between some form or private schools and public schools.  We want all our universities to perform, not just some of them connected to a wealthy class.

[viper37]

Yeah, but this isn't about education.  It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats.  Except with Drakken.  His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.

At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.

The teachers are largely in favour of the students.  They get paid in full pay while they don't have to work, so they're happy. 

[viper37]

I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations?  That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.

the majority is for the tuition increase.  Even among the students, the majority are not on strike.

[viper37]

It's not, the fundamental violation of civil liberties is the special law 78 that severly restrict the right to manifest. The law is probably anticonstitutionnal but it will expire before the courts ear any case brought before them on the subject.

The Liberal Party & CAQ mps should have be tar & feathered for allowing the Ministers to pass that law.

law 78 was voted only last friday.  There were violent protests before that, notably in Victoriaville, and a lot of vandalism.

The law ain't so bad after the amendments, but probably still goes to far.

[MadImmortalMan]

Nobody knows how to compromise anymore. Thanks, Tea Party.

[Valmy]

the majority is for the tuition increase.

Thanks.  Still probably should have passed that law though.

[Malthus]

I suspect part of what is fueling the protests isn't simply the matter of tuitions increasing, but a more general anger that students, particularly humanities students, face very limited prospects when they do graduate.

Assuming this is true. this is why compromise on the matter of increases isn't going to defuse matters. The increases were only a trigger.

Thing is of course that protesting isn't going to change anything. If the economy sucks, you can protest all you want and it will not make it better; if the current notion that everyone is entitled to a humanities degree and that this degree should mean something is unrealistic, it will remain unrealistic. 

[PRC]

The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.

Yeah.  It is principal and precendent here.

They pay less then any other students in Canada (and still would I believe). Their stubbornness gets no pity from me.

I don't understand how does that matter at all. Education is a provincial matter. My taxes are paying for that, not yours.

Since Quebec receives equalization payments wouldn't my taxes be paying for it as well as yours?

[Oexmelin]

Yeah, but this isn't about education.  It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats.  Except with Drakken.  His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.

At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.

The teachers are largely in favour of the students.  They get paid in full pay while they don't have to work, so they're happy.

[viper37]

The reason a lot of students are against this hikes, most notably in the social science faculties, is that the debt they will be left repay would be harder for them to repay than - say - those in medecine or finance schools.

Good thing then, if it might discourage some of studying in fields that goes nowhere.  We lack accountants and financial analysts, we don't lack historians or sociologist.  Again, a question of numbers, not of usefulness.

So the hike stings more for them than those with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Basically, they are afraid of working to repay their debt.  Like the student leader who didn't pay his rent, they want everything free.
If education doesn't pay, do something else.  I wanted to study history, but it doesn't pay, so I did finance.  Less fun, more usefulness to me now.

Interest on student loans are below the prime rate and deductible from your income tax.  Basically, it costs nothing to study.  And they have an increase scholarship wich means more students get those and not only low interest loans.

Also, universities here in Quebec have spent a lot of money in estates or other speculative ventures that went sour, rather than invest in better services. They had the money, but they wasted it. Quite a few universities' budget are in deficit and are badly administrated, so much than one of them (UQAM) was almost put under administrative control by the MEQ.

One of them did that, a leftist university, home of Leo-Paul Lauzon.  That's their problem, not mine.
Most universities did not do that, why should they be penalized for the incompetence of one administration?

Besides, bad management is inherent to public administration.  Yet, I had to suffer a tax hike every year since the Libs got into power.  Did you see me trashing some bank of drugstore window?

If the government had taken all these in account when negociating fairly with the student bodies, the crisis would have ended much sooner.

Please remind me of the compromises put forth by the students.  All I remember them saying is "there is no negociation unless there is no hike in tuition fees this fall".

They signed an agreement and immediatly said they would not recommend it to their members and even more, they did not even read it before signing it...  Talk about a bunch of morons.  They are university students, but they are unable to comprehend a document they read.  They are university student who complain about having to work too hard during a negociations.  They are university students complaining about workign too long.  I dare say if they are representative of social science students, we could do well with a little less of them.  Not only are they stupid, but they are also leazy.

Instead, the government has taken an incredibly aggressive and polarizing attitude, filled with condescending scorn and a legalistic juste-au-boutism.

Wich is the same they do since 2003.  Yet, they've been elected 3 times.  And the first time, they were elected with the same platform the party used for Bourassa in 1985.
Most voters are probably social science students unable to read a document...   

They literally equal anyone who give even support by omission against the government's policy as being against the government, against the rule of law, and being tantamount to mob rule supporters.

Wich they are.  If you stand there and do nothing, worst yet, if you approve of the vandalism, the intimidation and the violence, you are just as gulity as those doing the crime.  If you see someone being beaten to death and you don't act, you tell me it's allright?  I have doubts.

In other words, this government is full of Neils.

Nope.  If it were, the army would have been in the streets on day 1 shooting with live ammo.

Right now, what we have is because the Montreal police was too weak to act at first.  Protest in Quebec city have been much less worst due to quick action by the police fining everyone as soon as there was a violation of the city laws.

Rather than recognize any semblance of legitimacy to their opponents and talk with them, the government went the "let's teach the kids a lesson and fuck with them" approach

True.  Old people thinking they know everything.  Wich is what we've had for as long as I can remember, and the other parties don't seem to make way.

- which is made even badder by the fact that this government has now even less legitimacy thanks to its link to numerous accusations of party sleaze and corruption. The Charbonneau Commission, which is charged to inquire against the sleaze links between the government and different lobby groups, has opened just yesterday.

The FTQ wants the media attention everywhere but on this, wich is why they support the student strike.  They are insanely corrupt, even more than the average union and believe intimidation and racketing should be legitimate "business" practice for them.  Not that different from the student unions.

Even the so-called "deal" that was proposed was in fact a bamboozle and a sham; the paper that was signed wasn't what was agreed orally during the negocation processn and the former minister of Education Line Beauchamp went immediately to the press to announce that what would in happen in real was the opposite of what was signed in the deal.

That's the student's excuse for not reading the document.  They talked about things that were never discussed at the table. Even the union representatives there said the deal was what they discussed.  It's the spokespeople who couldn't admit their failure or bringing back free tuition that led them to this lie.  And you're jumping into it just because you don't like the Libs, the only real Federalist option, btw

[viper37]

Yeah, but this isn't about education.  It's class warfare, and the profs are seen as the aristocrats.  Except with Drakken.  His rage is about trying to stop masked hooligans from rioting.

At any rate, research and private funding have largely fled Quebec public universities anyways.

The teachers are largely in favour of the students.  They get paid in full pay while they don't have to work, so they're happy.

isn't it a fact?  They don't teach, and they don't do research since they can't get in the university, not to violate the strike line.
Teachers who support the strike and refuse to work are in violation of their contract.  The least they could do if forgive their pay for the duration of the strike.

[viper37]

Except that it's not Hansian - it is really the current state of Quebec education. Our current Justice Minister went to say in front of the press yesterday that "civil disobedience" is in fact another, nicer way to say "vandalism".

And on the other side, you have vandals comparing themselves to Martin Luther King.
Imho, given the proper context, given who talks about civil disobediance, the Justice Minister is not wrong.

And La Presse is a leftist media, just slightly less so than Le Devoir.  Most of the columnists support the strike and find excuses for the wannabe terrorists.

[viper37]

Why is the government so threatened here?

because they are a bunch of incompetent socialist morons who believe in nothing but raising taxes and fees we pay instead of cleaning up their act.
Except this time, they attacked something dear to the left, so there are violent protests.