Civil Unrest in Quebec

[PRC]

Quebec is a North American Greece... without the proud [ancient] history.

[Zoupa]

How insightful. Please don't hesitate if you have any more gems like that.

[PRC]

How insightful. Please don't hesitate if you have any more gems like that.

Gems like that are self-evident.

[Zoupa]

Good thing you took the time to post then.

[HVC]

They like to protest and get other people to pay for their stuff, so I guess they've got that going for them

[Camerus]

Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services.  But what it doesn't justify is why the province can overspend year after year (i.e. beyond the revenue generated by its higher taxes), and then turn to the "have" provinces to make up the difference, and not understand why the "have" provinces would eventually grow annoyed by that (particularly as they can't afford to offer Quebec level services).  The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.

I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.

[Grey Fox]

You know I'm only in favor of the students riots because it fucks with the esthablish order & that's something we desperetly need.

it fucks the middle class people trying to get to work, it fucks the guy with the little corner store that can no longer get insurance and his forced to sell to a bigger company like Couche-Tard.
That's who you're fucking.  Not the "establishment".

Pierre-Karl Péladeau is still happy, and Desmarais is in Sagard, running his businesses from there, when he's not in Toronto.  So that makes 2 out of 5 billionaires who don't care about it, on a personal level.

But if you believe that calling Sophie Durocher a "fucking whore" because her husband is against the strike, be my guest.  I believe in freedom of expression, even when it's dumb.  I somehow doubt Stephen Harper and Jean Charest where deeply disturbed by the signs.

I never said any of that. What makes you think I approve everything they do?

You are right that we do subsidize too many things but there is no culture of private venture money in Quebec. The Church use to control, we replaced it with a laic government.

Establishment(thats where the h is!) is the political class. What makes you think I hate Desmarais & Peladeau?

Middle Class? I'm middle class, I get to work fine everyday. It fucks with the Babyboomers and you know what? Fuck the Babyboomers.

I voted for the ADQ once & was let down, hard. The party disappeared because without Mario, the party is nothing.

[Grey Fox]

Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services.  But what it doesn't justify is why the province can overspend year after year (i.e. beyond the revenue generated by its higher taxes), and then turn to the "have" provinces to make up the difference, and not understand why the "have" provinces would eventually grow annoyed by that (particularly as they can't afford to offer Quebec level services).  The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.

I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.

If you dont like Perequation, leave Canada. Deal with it.

[Darth Wagtaros]

 

[Malthus]

Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services.  But what it doesn't justify is why the province can overspend year after year (i.e. beyond the revenue generated by its higher taxes), and then turn to the "have" provinces to make up the difference, and not understand why the "have" provinces would eventually grow annoyed by that (particularly as they can't afford to offer Quebec level services).  The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.

I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.

There is another angle to it - as I said above, it is my impression that while money was the trigger, what is really fueling the protest is a larger issue; and that is that university students (particularly humanities students) feel a sense that they don't have much of a future.

Not that I think protesting will help matters. The problems are systemic. We have created a system in which the participating students are lead to believe that a degree is the ticket to employment, when at best it is a prerequisite to some forms of employment. This leads to the familiar sight of students with degrees but no ability to get a job.

Ironically enough, the easier it is to get a degree and the larger percentage of the population that has degrees, the more pronounced the problem. Part of the problem is that a university degree has prestige in the general population far in excess of its actual economic value, leading many students to go for a humanities degree just because they feel that they should, not because they have a burning intellectual curiousity about whatever subject they are studying - it becomes merely an extention of high school.

Hence student frustration. They are told they need to go to university - sure it is a lot of fun (at least I thought it was) but you are putting your life on hold for what amounts to another 4 years, or more, of school. Then they find out it really isn't that useful. Meanwhile, they are 4 years behind and in debt. Now, in Quebec, they are being told that the debt is going to increase, while with the economy is wheezing - so they have to pay more to face worse prospects.

I can sympathize with their plight. Really, if I new what I known now when I was a student, I'd have gone into a more vocational education - I lucked out, but only through some lucky chances.

[Grallon]

...

Right now, they look like spoiled kids who don't know what they want.  Whenever teachers ask for better&bigger single offices (instead of sharing one), they approve. When they ask of a pay increase, they approve.  They want smaller classes and less hours, they approve.  They don't want to be evaluated, they approve.  Yet, they want free or nearly free tuition fees.  It is illogical.

No Viper - as I keep saying this has gone beyond the tuition thing for some time now - if you'd care to visit Montreal and see/feel for yourself you'd see.  Last night they were a few hundreds near my place on the Plateau banging on all sorts of pots and pans - and you know what - the neighborhood came out and joined them: older geezers, kids, all sorts of people.   It was very festive.

And I'm tired of having them compared to spoiled brats.  Spoiled brats don't spend 14 weeks in the streets no matter the weather, the gases, the police, the beatings, the lost eyes...  Spoiled brats run at the first sigh of trouble.  Are you seeing them run?

Those who've been in the streets for 3 months have changed - they've fought and bonded together.  You may expect them to go and vote en masse come the election - and it won't be for either the Liberals or the CAQ.

I wish Leo would run!

The country will do fine, it's my actual province I fear for

Canada doesn't concern or interest me - so long as they mind their business and don't interfere.  And you know very well the only country I was referring to is ours.

not enough, imho.
But we should have tuition fees modulated by field of study.  Some specialties cost more than others.  If social sciences believe they can do away with computers to save money, so be it (it was one of the student's proposals to freeze the computer budget, btw, among other things wich would have sacrificed more performing faculties; talk about "solidarity".)

That's the main gripe for many - they have to pay the same tuition while their employability is far less than those in medicine or management.  But some will cry about the sacrosanct equality principle...

In any case the tuition problem is minor now and could be worked out if there was some will to do so from the Liberal Govt.  But we all know Charest don't we?  He's an arrogant and stubborn donkey.  And what do you do with stubborn donkeys?  You beat them until they start moving again.  Hence why the protests are becoming more useful - not less. 




G.

[viper37]

Yes, Quebecois pay more taxes and that justifies getting better social services.

We don't get "better" social services, we only get more social services of dubious quality.

The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.

I agree.  Provinces should perceive what they need, and send a part of their budget to the Federal government for common expenses like defense, postal services, transport security and a few other things.

I like Quebec, but the tuition protests strike me as ridiculous, and sadly there are considerable parallels with the current Greek situation.

true, unfortunately.

[Camerus]

There is another angle to it - as I said above, it is my impression that while money was the trigger, what is really fueling the protest is a larger issue; and that is that university students (particularly humanities students) feel a sense that they don't have much of a future.

Oh, I don't doubt it.  Life prospects are worse for tones of people under 30 compared to their parents' generation - and I'd also say the diminished prospects includes (even more so, arguably) working class people, not just those with university degrees.  I have considerable sympathy for that viewpoint and frustration with the current state of affairs.  Add into that mix increasing anger with the political and especially the economic elites, and a boiling over becomes more understandable.

On the other hand, the tuition is already so incredibly modest and the increases each year so small that it's hard to feel sympathy for them, especially when the low tuition (like many other Quebec services) is partly being paid for by others.  In that way, it has a parallel with the Greek situation - yes the situation is shittier now than it was, say, 20 years ago, and I can understand the frustration with that.... but with everyone tightening their belts, why should you continue to get a free ride at the expense of those who've already tightened theirs?  Also, the actions of the protesters themselves are quite distasteful, although that's likely because protests are just often unfocused and led by assholes.

Anyway, the problems are, as you say, systemic and protesting likely won't achieve anything.  In the end, all I can say as I wish I had been born a Boomer.   

[Grey Fox]

The whole transfer system also encourages corruption and waste.

I agree.  Provinces should perceive what they need, and send a part of their budget to the Federal government for common expenses like defense, postal services, transport security and a few other things.

Yes, yes & yes.

All 400 millions* of it from us.

*Not an exact figure.

[viper37]

if you'd care to visit Montreal and see/feel for yourself you'd see.

Honestly, I avoid the island.  I cross over it from Mascouche to Longueuil, but that's it.  Ain't no way I'm going downtown Montreal with my car.  Ain't no way I'm getting my car vandalized or breath tear gaz for fun.

Last night they were a few hundreds near my place on the Plateau banging on all sorts of pots and pans - and you know what - the neighborhood came out and joined them: older geezers, kids, all sorts of people.   It was very festive.

this is the problem of Montreal, always taking the streets for anything.

And I'm tired of having them compared to spoiled brats.  Spoiled brats don't spend 14 weeks in the streets no matter the weather, the gases, the police, the beatings, the lost eyes...  Spoiled brats run at the first sigh of trouble.  Are you seeing them run?

Spoiled brats cry until they get what they want.  If they weren't spoiled brats, they'd be working and studying, while they are doing neither.

Those who've been in the streets for 3 months have changed - they've fought and bonded together.  You may expect them to go and vote en masse come the election - and it won't be for either the Liberals or the CAQ.

Good for them.  Québec Solidaire has promised free tuition for everyone, the PQ has promised them a freeze.  It's all they ever needed to do, really.

Meanwhile, vandals should be jailed and their organizations fined.

I wish Leo would run!

After Dolan and his crush on GND we'll have you a crush on the young one?  Why am I not surprised?

Canada doesn't concern or interest me - so long as they mind their business and don't interfere.  And you know very well the only country I was referring to is ours.

But we ain't a country yet.  And frankly, somedays, I'm happy we are not.

That's the main gripe for many - they have to pay the same tuition while their employability is far less than those in medicine or management.  But some will cry about the sacrosanct equality principle...

So-so-solidarité, as they say
Anyway, the government has promised them payback of their loans based on their annual income.  It helps alleviate the difference.  Anyway, working 2 jobs to re-pay your student loans for a few years ain't that bad.

In any case the tuition problem is minor now

It's never been a problem, actually.

But we all know Charest don't we?  He's an arrogant and stubborn donkey.  And what do you do with stubborn donkeys?  You beat them until they start moving again.  Hence why the protests are becoming more useful - not less. 

Oh, yeah protests are so effective that we are now closer than ever to a 4th Liberal government.




G.
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