Civil Unrest in Quebec

[garbon]

I am curious is the majority of the population for the tuition increases and the minority is trying to get its way through intimidating demonstrations?  That is not necessarily the case but I see it happen in France from time to time.

  I will never understand the American attitude to demonstrations or protests.

Goes a long way back.  Americans have an inherent disdain for any form of civil disobedience or unrest.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Look at how obnoxious protesters have been in recent times? They aren't even fighting for important causes.

LOL, Americans have hated protesters going back to the Pullman strikes, man.  Don't gimme that.

Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.

[CountDeMoney]

Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.

We "let" them?  Or did they take it?

[Valmy]

We "let" them?  Or did they take it?

I think the distaste for demonstrations waxes and wanes.  During the pre-WWII 20th century people seemed pretty pro-Demo.  I remember some tycoon...JP Morgan maybe...would complain when people would demonstrate in front of his house in NYC he would call the cops and they basically would just walk up, socialize a bit with the protestors and then the crowd would leave with a *wink wink* from the cops they could come back as soon as the cops left.  Working class solidarity and all that.

[garbon]

Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.

We "let" them?  Or did they take it?

If we were really so against, could have had Tiananmens and Kent States all over until people finally abandoned that type of discourse.

[CountDeMoney]

Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.

We "let" them?  Or did they take it?

If we were really so against, could have had Tiananmens and Kent States all over until people finally abandoned that type of discourse.

Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.

[Drakken]

WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma. We are far more leftist and social-democrat than even California or New England. Even our center-rights would all be Commies and Socialists in the US.

The tuition hike issue could have been resolved by some mixture of hard and fairness, if only to find ways to alleviate the pain for the students; carrots and sticks.

The reason a lot of students are against this hikes, most notably in the social science faculties, is that the debt they will be left repay would be harder for them to repay than - say - those in medecine or finance schools. So the hike stings more for them than those with a silver spoon in their mouth. Also, universities here in Quebec have spent a lot of money in estates or other speculative ventures that went sour, rather than invest in better services. They had the money, but they wasted it. Quite a few universities' budget are in deficit and are badly administrated, so much than one of them (UQAM) was almost put under administrative control by the MEQ.

If the government had taken all these in account when negociating fairly with the student bodies, the crisis would have ended much sooner.

Instead, the government has taken an incredibly aggressive and polarizing attitude, filled with condescending scorn and a legalistic juste-au-boutism. They literally equal anyone who give even support by omission against the government's policy as being against the government, against the rule of law, and being tantamount to mob rule supporters. In other words, this government is full of Neils. Rather than recognize any semblance of legitimacy to their opponents and talk with them, the government went the "let's teach the kids a lesson and fuck with them" approach - which is made even badder by the fact that this government has now even less legitimacy thanks to its link to numerous accusations of party sleaze and corruption. The Charbonneau Commission, which is charged to inquire against the sleaze links between the government and different lobby groups, has opened just yesterday.

Even the so-called "deal" that was proposed was in fact a bamboozle and a sham; the paper that was signed wasn't what was agreed orally during the negocation processn and the former minister of Education Line Beauchamp went immediately to the press to announce that what would in happen in real was the opposite of what was signed in the deal.

[Valmy]

WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Hey blame Shielbh.  I would love to see a protest in Tulsa, Oklahoma...eh nevermind it would probably be a lynch mob.

The tuition hike issue could have been resolved by some mixture of hard and fairness, if only to find ways to alleviate the pain for the students; carrots and sticks.

The reason a lot of students are against this hikes, most notably in the social science faculties, is that the debt they will be left repay would be harder for them to repay than - say - those in medecine or finance schools. So the hike stings more for them than those with a silver spoon in their mouth. Also, universities here in Quebec have spent a lot of money in estates or other speculative ventures, rather should have been invested in better services. Quite a few universities' budget are in deficit and are badly administrated, so much than one of them (UQAM) was almost put under administrative control by the MEQ.

If the government had taken all these in account when negociating fairly with the student bodies, the crisis would have ended much sooner.

Instead, the government has taken an incredibly aggressive and polarizing attitude, filled with condescending scorn and a legalistic juste-au-boutism. They literally equal anyone who give even support by omission against the government's policy as being against the government, against the rule of law, and being tantamount to mob rule supporters. In other words, this government is full of Neils. Rather than recognize any semblance of legitimacy to their opponents and talk with them, the government went the "let's teach the kids a lesson and fuck with them" approach - which is made even badder by the fact that this government has now even less legitimacy thanks to its linked to numerous accusation of party sleaze and corruption.

Even the so-called "deal" that was proposed was in fact a bamboozle and a sham; the paper that was signed wasn't what was agreed orally during the negocation processn and the former minister of Education Line Beauchamp went immediately to the press to announce that what would in happen in real was the opposite of what was signed in the deal.

A little less Hansian hyperbole would be nice to help me understand the issue but the last paragraph does smell like a rat.  I hate it when parliaments pull that kind of garbage. 

[CountDeMoney]

WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Sheila B started it, man.

$254 a year increase is not worth getting torqued up over for 100 days.
Hell, over the course of the 100 days, if they worked part-time in an indie cafe full of Polish gay wanna-be hipsters typing on Apples about hating real hipsters instead of wasting 100 days like a bunch of spoiled brats, they would've already made up for the money, and then some.

[garbon]

Obviously we haven't always hated protesters as America has let them prove effective here and there.

We "let" them?  Or did they take it?

If we were really so against, could have had Tiananmens and Kent States all over until people finally abandoned that type of discourse.

Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.

Yes because that's what I'm saying.

[CountDeMoney]

In other words, this government is full of Neils.

Well, that is a bit unfortunate.  What with Neil being a dickhead and all.

[CountDeMoney]

Riiiight...like there wasn't enough bloodshed since the 1890s.

Yes because that's what I'm saying.

I hope you get brained by the cops at your next Pride rally.  SEQUINS BLOODY SEQUINS

[Drakken]

A little less Hansian hyperbole would be nice to help me understand the issue but the last paragraph does smell like a rat.  I hate it when parliaments pull that kind of garbage.

Except that it's not Hansian - it is really the current state of Quebec education. Our current Justice Minister went to say in front of the press yesterday that "civil disobedience" is in fact another, nicer way to say "vandalism".

Even some commentators at La Presse (which is far from being leftist yellow paper) agree with that reading. For instance, Vincent Marissal - who is far from being a Commie and who is one of the most esteemed commentator of both Federal and Provincial politics :

Un gouvernement dépassé et inadéquat


Vincent Marissal
La Presse

Rosa Parks était-elle une délinquante?

La question peut paraître grossière, mais pas plus, si vous voulez mon avis, que la déclaration du ministre de la Justice, Jean-Marc Fournier, selon qui l'expression «désobéissance civile» est une jolie façon de dire «vandalisme».


Je précise, avant qu'une irrépressible envie de m'écrire des bêtises vous assaille, que je ne fais aucun parallèle entre le mouvement des droits des Noirs américains sur le fond, mais plutôt sur la forme. La désobéissance civile est un mécanisme classique de lutte contre le pouvoir. Ce fut le cas pour cette jeune couturière de l'Alabama qui refusa, en 1955, d'aller s'asseoir à l'arrière d'un bus comme c'est le cas pour certains étudiants qui décident de défier la loi spéciale 78.

Je n'encourage pas les étudiants à le faire (ce serait bête d'aggraver leur situation financière par de lourdes amendes), mais je comprendrais fort bien leurs motifs. Cette loi est exagérée, abusive, mal pensée, vraisemblablement inconstitutionnelle et, apparemment, difficile à appliquer. En tout cas, hier, le Service de police de la Ville de Montréal a préféré ne pas l'utiliser. La police fait preuve de plus de retenue dans l'application d'une loi spéciale que le gouvernement qui l'a concoctée en catastrophe au nom de la sécurité et de la paix sociale...

Ça fait donc plus de 100 jours que ça dure. Des centaines de manifs; plus d'un millier d'arrestations; une entente bidon avortée; une ministre sacrifiée; une loi spéciale très dure adoptée dans la cohue, et puis quoi? Rien. L'impasse. Le gouvernement en «mode menace». La police en «mode anti-émeute». Les étudiants grévistes en «mode manif».

Le gouvernement peut se conforter en regardant les différents sondages, qui démontrent que les Québécois sont majoritairement d'accord avec la loi spéciale, cela ne change rien au fond du problème: trois mois plus tard, la crise n'est toujours pas réglée.

Depuis plus de trois mois, ce gouvernement a tout faux. Malgré le ton grave et confiant de celui qui ne reculera pas, ce gouvernement est dépassé et inadéquat.

Au début, il a mal évalué l'ampleur du mouvement, qui allait rapidement s'essouffler, pensait-on à Québec. Puis, le gouvernement a cru que la grève prendrait fin à Pâques. Ensuite, les libéraux ont tenté de diaboliser Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois. En vain. Ils croyaient par ailleurs être capables de mettre fin au conflit avec une entente mal fagotée et farfelue et comme rien de tout ça n'a fonctionné, ils ont cru faire peur aux étudiants avec une loi spéciale.

Bien sûr, le gouvernement n'a pas tous les torts. Les représentants des étudiants ont fait preuve d'une sacrée intransigeance par moments, mais à la fin, en démocratie, c'est le gouvernement qui doit régler les crises et assurer la paix sociale. Il y arrive avec la FTQ, notamment, qui est nettement plus intimidante que ne le seront jamais les étudiants.

On a appris il y a quelques jours que la FECQ et la FEUQ ont offert de parler des droits de scolarité, mais que l'ex-ministre Beauchamp leur a alors dit que ce sujet n'était pas négociable.

Ce gouvernement n'a pas été capable d'en arriver à une solution négociée. Il est maintenant incapable de forcer la fin de la crise avec une loi matraque. Que lui reste-t-il comme crédibilité, comme légitimité?

La ministre de l'Éducation, Michelle Courchesne, a dit hier que son cabinet tentait depuis jeudi de joindre les associations! Come on! Tous les étudiants ont des cellulaires (et boivent de la sangria à Outremont!), c'est bien connu! Et puis, si la ligne est occupée, envoyez votre invitation formelle par l'entremise des médias, ce ne serait pas la première fois.

Au point où on en est, nous devrions enfermer tout ce beau monde dans une église (ça facilite le recueillement!) et ne les laisser en sortir que lorsque la fumée blanche du consensus s'échappera de la cheminée.

Il est peut-être trop tard, par contre. On se dirige peut-être vers 100 autres jours de grève, vers un trimestre définitivement foutu et vers un joyeux bordel en septembre.

Le principal problème, dans l'approche du gouvernement, c'est qu'elle est intransigeante, qu'elle est antagoniste. Vous portez le carré rouge? Vous êtes contre le gouvernement, contre le Québec même, et pour la violence; vous désobéissez? Vous êtes un vandale! Vous ne dénoncez pas la violence? C'est donc que vous l'encouragez! Vous n'acceptez pas la hausse? Vous êtes contre le développement des universités!

Il y a un problème d'équilibre, de contrepoids dans l'approche de ce gouvernement. Ça commence au sommet de la hiérarchie, avec Jean Charest, qui a apparemment oublié qu'il est aussi ministre de la Jeunesse. Il a écouté la commission jeunesse de son parti, qui a produit de judicieuses recommandations au cours des dernières années, mais les leaders étudiants n'ont, semble-t-il, aucune légitimité à ses yeux.

Problème de contrepoids, aussi, à l'Éducation, qui est maintenant entre les mains de la présidente du Conseil du Trésor, dont le mandat premier est de réduire les dépenses de l'État.

Quant au ministre de la Sécurité publique, Robert Dutil, il est d'abord ministre de la Police dans cette crise.

Que la police arrête et neutralise les casseurs et les têtes brûlées, soit, mais qui protège les victimes collatérales qui se font tabasser et poivrer si généreusement, comme le démontrent les vidéos du week-end? Qui protège un photographe de presse dûment identifié qui se fait cogner la tête par une brute en uniforme? Qui protège un restaurateur ou un dramaturge injustement maltraités, insultés et arrêtés?

«La déontologie», a dit hier M. Dutil.

Faites-moi rire...

[Admiral Yi]

BTW Francophones, manifest = demonstrate.

[Grey Fox]

WTF are you bringing in how the Americans deal with protests? It's Montreal, Quebec, not Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Sheila B started it, man.

$254 a year increase is not worth getting torqued up over for 100 days.
Hell, over the course of the 100 days, if they worked part-time in an indie cafe full of Polish gay wanna-be hipsters typing on Apples about hating real hipsters instead of wasting 100 days like a bunch of spoiled brats, they would've already made up for the money, and then some.

The amount doesn't matter. A 1$ increase would have had the same effect. No raise is acceptable.

[Grey Fox]

BTW Francophones, manifest = demonstrate.

Thank you.

I spent a good minute trying to find a better word.