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From tomorrow's Washington Post Magazine...

QuoteGraduate degrees: Are they worth it?
By Cecilia Capuzzi Simon, Published: February 16

In early 2011, Ramsey Day was completing his 21 / 2-year tour as head of USAID's Montenegro office and evaluating his next job offer. The 36-year-old's political career trajectory had been steep and fast. Starting in 2003, he had: served as an advance representative for Vice President Dick Cheney; worked on George Bush's 2004 reelection campaign; won a political appointment to USAID's Europe-Eurasia Bureau; been promoted to the bureau's chief of staff, and then promoted again to chief of USAID's Public Liaison Office.

With that track record, his successful stint in Montenegro, and his deep management experience, Day seemed positioned for advancement by almost any measure — any measure, that is, but his academic credentials. With a bachelor's degree only, he was shut out of the running for positions at the next level of leadership in the U.S. Agency for International Development. His new assignment felt like it would be a step down: a post as general development officer in a remote area of Afghanistan, which (because it was also a move from civil to foreign service) came with a $50,000 pay cut — half of his Montenegro salary.

"That," he says, "was not something I intended on doing."

In a field that relies on technical expertise in specialties such as international economics, agriculture or democratic governance, and is dominated by those with advanced degrees, Day says his management skills took him only so far. He was a skilled problem solver who could identify development goals and assemble teams of experts to execute action plans in his host country, but he was doing it without the academic credentials. "I knew that at some point my lack of a master's would catch up to me," he says.

And so, instead of going to Afghanistan last year, Day went to graduate school. After weighing acceptance letters from American University's School of International Service and Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Day left the mountains of Montenegro in August and moved to Cambridge, where he is now halfway through a one-year master's in public administration.

Day's professional world may be specialized, but the circumstances that led to his enrollment in a graduate program are hardly unique. As Phillip Trella, assistant vice president for graduate studies at the University of Virginia, sums it up: "The bachelor's degree is no longer the coin of the realm it once was. Thirty years ago, it distinguished you in the marketplace. That's no longer so."

***

For those who want to shore up their worth in their chosen profession, boost their salaries, switch careers or even simply wait out the bad economy while adding to their academic résumés, the case for earning a master's degree is strong. Especially, it seems, if you aspire to work, or advance, in Washington. Twenty-eight percent of the over-25 population here has a master's or PhD — more than any state, according to 2009 Census data.

The trend is similar elsewhere. Nationwide, the number of people enrolled in graduate school has risen steadily, an average 3.8 percent per year in the decade before 2010. In that year, in the thick of the recession, applications were up 8.4 percent, though first-time enrollment dipped slightly by 1 percent as employers pulled back on tuition reimbursement, according to a survey by the Council of Graduate Schools and the Graduate Record Examinations Board. Nevertheless, 2010 saw more than half a million graduates land in the marketplace with newly minted advanced degrees. Today, two in 25 people age 25 or older have a master's as their highest degree — about the same number with a bachelor's in 1967, according to the Digest of Education Statistics.

Part of this attraction is purely economic. In 2009, the median salary of a master's degree recipient was 26 percent more than those who held a bachelor's only, according to a report released last year from the Center on Education and the Workforce at Georgetown University.

In every academic major group, more education resulted in more money. But field matters when assessing earnings boost and employment prospects, says Anthony Carnevale, the study's author and the center's director. Biology and life science majors were the most likely to earn graduate degrees and experienced one of the largest salary bumps with them (101 percent); arts majors and those in communications and journalism had the lowest, with 23 percent and 25 percent, respectively, and coming off of already low salaries. A master's in a health-care profession is "like money in the bank," Carnevale says.

Engineers experience a significant boost in compensation with master's degrees that push them into management. Business majors — especially in finance, hospitality management and international fields — are in demand again after taking a hit early in the recession, and stand to increase already-high salaries by an average 40 percent with a master's. Of the law and public policy majors group, 24 percent earn a graduate degree, however of public policy majors alone, 50 percent earn a graduate degree and experience a 107 percent earnings boost.

In some professions, such as teaching, social work or psychology, master's degrees are becoming mandatory. The salary boost may not be high (the median salary for social workers with advanced degrees in 2009 was $55,000 compared with $40,000 for a B.A. only, according to the National Association of Social Workers), but master's degrees are necessary to advance or get licensed.

Institution also matters in some fields. Graduates from top-ranked economics departments earned a median salary 46 percent greater than that of graduates from other programs in 2010, according to the National Association for Business Economics.

Carnevale says those younger than 35 are in the best position to maximize the investment of a graduate degree. On the other hand, workers in fields that now require a graduate degree to advance might be smart to earn one regardless of age.

Earnings potential is not the only factor in creating what Carnevale says has become a "presumption of graduate school." A large part is also the consequence of "credential creep" because, well, just because everyone else is getting them.

Colleges and universities have added to this mind-set. Driven by business opportunities, political pressure, student interest and employer demands for a better-trained workforce, schools have been on a mission to attract more students and turn out more degrees.

Employers expect graduate education because they can, and academic bona fides help them narrow an ever-growing pool of applicants. The degrees also raise the level of organizational expertise necessary in a global marketplace.

***

So, should you go to graduate school? Aside from the obvious — that a master's gives you specialized and substantive expertise — the degree also signals to employers that recipients can complete a demanding program and that they have already been vetted by an institution, says Charles Caramello, dean of the graduate school at University of Maryland. For the master's recipient, institutional affiliation can, or should, present a professional network to tap into once in the labor market.

"There is an overall financial and job enrichment chain that happens the higher the education you have," says Debra Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools.

But academics and workplace experts add that there are no guarantees attached to a master's, and it is not for everyone. "Just because the statistics say unemployment is lower with a master's doesn't mean you won't be unemployed," says Kristin Williams, George Washington University's assistant provost for graduate enrollment.

She and Stewart advise those considering graduate school to do a cost-benefit analysis.

Part needs to be financial: How will you cover tuition? Will your expected salary make the degree worth the cost? Can you assume debt? More than half of those pursuing a master's will borrow an average of $31,000. Can you attend full time, or do you need to keep working?

Part should be personal: Can your private life sustain the commitment in time and energy graduate study requires? Do you need to relocate? Are your ambitions a good intellectual fit with the degree you want?

Ramsey Day took stock before starting his degree but acknowledges feeling daunted by the $50,000 tuition (covered with loans), $30,000 in living expenses (he tapped into savings), the challenge of getting back into "an academic mind-set" after being out of school for years, and a personal life put on hold ("I'd like to be married and have children someday").

Perhaps the most important part of the assessment is a hard look into one's preferred field, Williams says: What are the jobs like, what is the employment outlook?

Schools also need scrutiny, with close attention paid to the fate of past graduates. Sometimes, Williams says, prospective students discover they don't need a master's or that a couple of courses or a graduate certificate is sufficient.

Jonathan Tubman, vice provost for graduate studies at American University, says universities also have a stake in their programs' marketplace outcomes. "There is incredible pressure to help students succeed," he says. "It's difficult to say to them, 'Please borrow all this money and have faith that you'll get a job after we graduate you.' "

Prospective students should expect a school's support outside the classroom through an established professional network and targeted internships, says Robert Manuel, dean of the school of continuing studies at Georgetown. That's the idea behind nine professional master's degrees he created since arriving at Georgetown in 2006, which give students an opportunity to "test drive" a curriculum and turn it into a job.

LaRhonda Lombardi, 29, who graduated from Georgetown in 2010 with a master's in professional studies in sports industry management and who is now manager of programs and administration for the Washington Wizards and Washington Mystics, says she doubts she could have landed the job without that approach or Georgetown's local clout in a competitive field.

She was working as an administrator and lacrosse coach at the Maret School when she happened upon a description of the master's in a Google search. The program is taught primarily by adjunct faculty members who are sports industry professionals, and it attracts big names. Two — Verizon Center vice president David Touhey and Mystics chief operating officer and Wizards' executive vice president Greg Bibb — ­were Lombardi's professors. Given the caliber of her instructors and the weekly "face time" with them, Lombardi says she "treated every class as a job interview." After Lombardi completed an internship with the Tiger Woods Foundation in 2009, Bibb offered her a job in corporate sponsorship and ticket sales support with the Mystics the year before she graduated. She was promoted to management a year later.

Like Lombardi, many students are driven by their love for a field despite tough odds when it comes to employment or earnings.

For Tom Hardej, leaving his job at Hachette Book Group in New York City and pursuing a master's in historic preservation at University of Maryland was a choice he made out of passion and after a hard look at his then-profession.

Having worked for four years as a book editor, a volatile business transformed by digital media, he says he "saw the writing on the wall." Experienced colleagues were being laid off, and Hardej, now 30, was concerned with the pace at which he was advancing.

"I started thinking, 'I could stay and do this a while longer, but what if I'm 40 and get laid off and have to reinvent myself?' It would be easier to do that in my 20s," he explains.

He decided to turn his love for history, and reputation for dragging friends to historical sites, into a job. He also decided he needed academic credentials to do it. Already committed to a move to Washington to close a gap in a long-distance relationship, he started his master's in fall 2010. His dream job at the time? Work at the National Trust for Historic Preservation or the National Park Service. But, he now says, "I didn't know what I was getting myself into."

Hardej's degree, and the certificate in museum studies he will earn in May, makes sense for the interpretive or museum work he hopes to do, says David Field, assistant director for human resources at the Trust. But only a third of the Trust's 280 jobs are directly related to historic preservation, he says, and turnover in coveted field positions is low. Though the occupation is expected to grow 20 percent in the next six years, competition will be tough because qualified applicants will outnumber job openings, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In addition, at the Trust, anyway, most jobs are filled by those with degrees in business, fundraising, marketing, accounting or nonprofit administration.

"Like any nonprofit these days, we are really looking for people with hard-core business skills," Field says. So are a number of other industries, such as engineering, technology and the arts. (Nearly three-quarters of companies surveyed by the Graduate Management Admission Council say they plan to hire MBAs in 2012, up from 58 percent last year.)

Hardej is aware that he set himself on a precarious path. Nevertheless, he says the degree, as well as internships and a teaching assistantship, has given him the academic grounding he wanted and a broader view of his options for work. The median starting salary for someone with his credential is about $50,000. He'll need that to pay back the $18,900 in-state tuition for the two-year degree.

Attending graduate school is a "calculated risk," Hardej says.

"Many factors go into whether an education or a profession is a good fit. Salary is just one of them," he says. "I wanted to do something I like."

Still, he chuckles nervously when discussing his loans and facing the job market this spring.

"We'll see how that goes," he says. "I'm laughing about it now because I'm still in grad school."

QuoteEarnings boost: How education impacts salary
In every academic major group, more education resulted in more money, according to a Georgetown University report, but field matters when assessing how big a boost graduate-degree holders can earn.

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When discussing "law" do they properly consider a JD to be the bachelor's degree that it is? :hmm:

Quote from: Barrister on February 18, 2012, 10:29:24 PM
When discussing "law" do they properly consider a JD to be the bachelor's degree that it is? :hmm:

OH NO HE DI'INT

Quote(Nearly three-quarters of companies surveyed by the Graduate Management Admission Council say they plan to hire MBAs in 2012, up from 58 percent last year.)

:bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 18, 2012, 10:51:32 PM

Quote(Nearly three-quarters of companies surveyed by the Graduate Management Admission Council say they plan to hire MBAs in 2012, up from 58 percent last year.)

:bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:

Yeah, when you look at job offers over here it's not much better. A great many positions that go beyond the most basic office tasks are advertised for MBAs (and pay abysmally). It's quickly becoming the default education for non-technical office jobs of intermediate level or above. It's also not helped that it's often the default education of people who want to go to university but don't know what to study and who want to do "something that pays well."

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 18, 2012, 10:51:32 PM

Quote(Nearly three-quarters of companies surveyed by the Graduate Management Admission Council say they plan to hire MBAs in 2012, up from 58 percent last year.)

:bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:

Concur.

Quote from: BarristerWhen discussing "law" do they properly consider a JD to be the bachelor's degree that it is?

A spectral vision of Dean Langdell just appeared before me, and told you to STFU.  Yeah, they learn Internet initialisms in Hell.

QuoteAttending graduate school is a "calculated risk," Hardej says.

Lol.  So was taking out a variable-rate loan on an $800,000 McMansion back in 2008, you dumb Croatian.

It is a bubble, and it will pop.  PREDICTION: In ten years, half of America's institutions of higher learning will no longer exist.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 18, 2012, 11:54:29 PM

QuoteAttending graduate school is a "calculated risk," Hardej says.

Lol.  So was taking out a variable-rate loan on an $800,000 McMansion back in 2008, you dumb Croatian.

It is a bubble, and it will pop.  PREDICTION: In ten years, half of America's institutions of higher learning will no longer exist.

College towns will become ghost towns. :(

Quote from: Ideologue on February 18, 2012, 11:54:29 PM

QuoteAttending graduate school is a "calculated risk," Hardej says.

Lol.  So was taking out a variable-rate loan on an $800,000 McMansion back in 2008, you dumb Croatian.

It is a bubble, and it will pop.  PREDICTION: In ten years, half of America's institutions of higher learning will no longer exist.

Hopefully DGuller's pdf machine will catch this one.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 18, 2012, 11:54:29 PM
PREDICTION: In ten years, half of America's institutions of higher learning will no longer exist.

Neither will the other half. :cthulu:

College educations seem way over priced. Kids getting out being 50k and much more in debt is onerous. Can anything be changed with the costs of an education? Does anything need to be done? What are the costs in Euroland nations, Canada, etc? And the answer isn't necessarily for more free govt education loans, which I'd think would continue to allow colleges to keep increasing tuition since the taxpayer is picking up more of the tab.

Journalists earn $50,000 there? Who wants to marry me so I can come over?

I did a three-month intense post-graduate certificate to legitimise the whole career change thing. Wish I could have afforded the money or the time out to do an MA.

Quote from: Brazen on February 19, 2012, 11:29:31 AM
Journalists earn $50,000 there? Who wants to marry me so I can come over?

:hmm:

Quote from: Barrister on February 18, 2012, 10:29:24 PM
When discussing "law" do they properly consider a JD to be the bachelor's degree that it is? :hmm:

How do you feel it is a bachelor's degree? Money's post is about American degrees so whatever quirks exist in Canada aren't relevant here. I know that Canada has historically issued a "Bachelor of Laws" degree, but my internet wizardy indicates to get into a law program even in Canada you typically still need 2-3 years of undergraduate coursework and further based on admission statistics the most common type of incoming Canadian law student is someone who has actually received a full undergraduate degree. Nonetheless, a Bachelor of Laws is a Bachelor degree and I'll give you that (although it looks like even Canadians are slowly changing the nomenclature of their legal degrees to the JD.)

Anyway, since Money's article is about American education that's as I said, totally irrelevant. In the United States it's a "Juris Doctorate" so from the most technical standpoint (which is all lawyers should care about being masters of trivial technical details) it is absolutely not a Bachelors Degree.

I personally view law school as akin to a trade certification in a highly specialized field that generally requires significant college coursework to begin studying. In the U.S. I believe you can also get into law school without a bachelor degree by the way...but I think ABA certified schools require a bachelors so you're talking very shitty law programs where you could get around this requirement.

I think it's a little silly that people sometimes argue the JD is a "real" doctorate, but now even pharmacists are getting "Pharm. D." degrees and that's just a 5-6 year program total 4 years of which are standard undergraduate coursework.

I'm on the iPad so I must be brief -a JD is a bachelor's degree because there is an actual graduate degree in law - the LL.M.

Which you get after a JD.

I just dug my diploma out, it says:

"we confer upon him the degree of Bachelor of Science..." (and then some other stuff about recommending me to the President as a commissioned officer in the Army), so unless a JD says "Bachelor of Science" on the diploma then I can't agree with it being a Bachelor degree.

I don't trust anyone with a graduate degree.  They are unamerican.

Now that everybody and their dog has a bachellors degree it does seem to an extent that masters are what bachellors once were.
However....with so many people getting masters these days, often not necessarily the best and brightest but just those who didn't know what else to do and felt they had a year or two to spare.....Things are iffy.

American university fees are just insane. That adds yet more thinking to whether its worth it or not, its not just a time concern.

Quote from: Brazen on February 19, 2012, 11:29:31 AM
Journalists earn $50,000 there? Who wants to marry me so I can come over?

I did a three-month intense post-graduate certificate to legitimise the whole career change thing. Wish I could have afforded the money or the time out to do an MA.

$50,000 may be the average salary for journalists, but the job market is extremely tough for journalists. Based on the number of unemployed journalist majors I know, it seems like a journalism degree is nearly worthless. Incidentally, I know a bunch of former journalists in law school, so it's kind of a "out of the fire, into the frying pan" situation for those guys.

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 04:45:14 PM
I'm on the iPad so I must be brief -a JD is a bachelor's degree because there is an actual graduate degree in law - the LL.M.

Which you get after a JD.

If you're a total retard, or getting it in tax.

LL.M.s are a fucking joke, except for tax, and just another example of the scam.  S.J.D.s are beyond the impossible.

Otto, the proper classification of a J.D. has been a running contention between me and Beeb for over a year.  I guess it's all well and good sit on top of the gaol while your bank account swells with that sweet, sweet government lucre and claim, humbly, that you've merely got a pair of bachelor's degrees, but for some of us this shit matters.  And as employers, such as the country's largest employer, or the foreign interests with whom I treat, have taken my position and view the J.D. as the equivalent of a master's degree, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with my (less :P ) learned colleague.

That 50,000 for journalists is skewed by some big money at the high end.  I've known people working for local papers who made starvation wages.

Quote from: stjaba on February 19, 2012, 10:11:40 PM

Quote from: Brazen on February 19, 2012, 11:29:31 AM
Journalists earn $50,000 there? Who wants to marry me so I can come over?

I did a three-month intense post-graduate certificate to legitimise the whole career change thing. Wish I could have afforded the money or the time out to do an MA.

$50,000 may be the average salary for journalists, but the job market is extremely tough for journalists. Based on the number of unemployed journalist majors I know, it seems like a journalism degree is nearly worthless. Incidentally, I know a bunch of former journalists in law school, so it's kind of a "out of the fire, into the frying pan" situation for those guys.

Oh God. :bleeding:

Then again, the people I really don't get are the engineers and accountants and such who went to law school.  LOL PATENT LAW LOL HIGH FINANCE.  I don't necessarily feel bad for them, since they at least have a credential to fall back on.  "I was in a coma."

"But I degress".

Quote from: Ideologue on February 19, 2012, 10:37:46 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 04:45:14 PM
I'm on the iPad so I must be brief -a JD is a bachelor's degree because there is an actual graduate degree in law - the LL.M.

Which you get after a JD.

If you're a total retard, or getting it in tax.

LL.M.s are a fucking joke, except for tax, and just another example of the scam.  S.J.D.s are beyond the impossible.

Otto, the proper classification of a J.D. has been a running contention between me and Beeb for over a year.  I guess it's all well and good sit on top of the gaol while your bank account swells with that sweet, sweet government lucre and claim, humbly, that you've merely got a pair of bachelor's degrees, but for some of us this shit matters.  And as employers, such as the country's largest employer, or the foreign interests with whom I treat, have taken my position and view the J.D. as the equivalent of a master's degree, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with my (less :P ) learned colleague.

If you're going to try and pull shit like that, I'll be forced to point out that until and unless you pass the bar, you're not my colleague at all. -_-

Fundamentally, any degree which is your first course of study ought to be termed a bachelor's degree.  Just because many programs now require a degree in an unrelated area as a pre-requisite for admission does not make them a master's degree.

But fundamentally, focusing on the doctor part of your degree is frnkly emphasizing the wrong part.  What's important is that you have a degree in law.

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM
If you're going to try and pull shit like that, I'll be forced to point out that until and unless you pass the bar, you're not my colleague at all. -_-

What's the legal term for pwn3d?  Is that a form of tort?

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM
But fundamentally, focusing on the doctor part of your degree is frnkly emphasizing the wrong part.  What's important is that you have a degree in law.

Hey, it's not like I named the thing.

If I'd been Dean Langdell, I'd have named it a master's of law.  LL.M.s did not, I believe, exist at the time, so I'd have named that, when they did arise, "LL.D." or something similar.

In any event, I can split the difference with you: academically, it is not strictly a master's degree; but as far as effect in the wider world outside law (where it is a professional degree and, generally speaking, a required certification), it should be treated as a non-field (or in some cases--e.g. public administration, business, political science [lol]--allied field) master's degree.  Would that be acceptable to you?

Quote from: CountDeMoneyWhat's the legal term for pwn3d?  Is that a form of tort?

It was a pretty sick burn. -_-  WELL MET.

QuoteFundamentally, any degree which is your first course of study ought to be termed a bachelor's degree.  Just because many programs now require a degree in an unrelated area as a pre-requisite for admission does not make them a master's degree.

Yeah but Bachelors is a term with a real definition (basically being any degree that gives a diploma with the word Bachelor in it.)

If you become a Pharmacist you do not get a bachelors degree at all, typically you enroll at a college that has a pharmacy program and you take roughly two years of classes as "pre-pharmacy" (basically undergraduate chemistry/biology coursework and usually you satisfy some generic liberal arts requirements at this time.) Then you get into the pharmacy school proper which is usually another 3 years, sometimes 4 (so you have a 5-6 year total degree time.) They then you give you a piece of paper that says "Doctor of Pharmacy."

I don't agree that it's a bachelor degree because bachelor degree is a nomenclature thing. Should it be considered a Doctorate? No, not at all.

The problem is a lot of other random stuff has been "grafted onto" the existing academia system. In ages past a Bachelor or Baccalaureate degree would be something some young upper class guy might get as part of the standard education of persons from his economic class/social strata. It would usually be followed up by a job working for some firm or business venture or things of that nature (I'm thinking 19th century America here at least.) Master's and Ph.Ds as they were only really existed for the small subset of people who were intending to go into academia. At least by the mid-19th century that was how things worked in the U.S. If you intended to become a professor you would go on to graduate studies and then do a dissertation after even more study and get a Ph.D. No one pursued graduate studies for any other reason other than to become a academic, it just was simply not done, there was no reason for it whatsoever.

People in the legal profession who had historically been trained through an apprenticeship system wanted the prestige that comes with formal education, and decided to create law schools as we know them today. (If you look at say, many American founding fathers who were lawyers they typically just got a traditional classical education at university followed up by an apprenticeship and then taking the bar.) Over time as the desire has always been to create/magnify the "prestige" of practicing law it's become more hierarchical. At first it wasn't atypical for someone from a good family to be finished with their initial college education by 18-19 and go into the law schools of the time, it also wasn't atypical to go into law school without any pre-requisite college education. However, as part of that desire for prestige at least in the United States you eventually had law school admissions de facto require an undergraduate degree, to reinforce the concept that someone who graduate from law school had a "superior" degree to someone who just graduated from a normal college program.

Somewhere along the way people in various other fields wanted (or the college system created the demand) post-undergraduate education that could enhance their resume/prestige, and they wanted more than just a piece of paper saying "dude took some courses" they wanted a fancy graduate diploma that showed they were a step above their peers. So then the Master's degree was sort of hijacked and turned into a "certificate of continuing education" and that's all it really is for Engineers, teachers, IT professionals, accountants, et al who get them. I do question if employers or employees really benefit at all from these and speculate they are a smart way that universities have tapped into corporate dollars (which often fund professionals getting master's degrees.)

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 19, 2012, 10:37:46 PM

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 04:45:14 PM
I'm on the iPad so I must be brief -a JD is a bachelor's degree because there is an actual graduate degree in law - the LL.M.

Which you get after a JD.

If you're a total retard, or getting it in tax.

LL.M.s are a fucking joke, except for tax, and just another example of the scam.  S.J.D.s are beyond the impossible.

Otto, the proper classification of a J.D. has been a running contention between me and Beeb for over a year.  I guess it's all well and good sit on top of the gaol while your bank account swells with that sweet, sweet government lucre and claim, humbly, that you've merely got a pair of bachelor's degrees, but for some of us this shit matters.  And as employers, such as the country's largest employer, or the foreign interests with whom I treat, have taken my position and view the J.D. as the equivalent of a master's degree, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with my (less :P ) learned colleague.

If you're going to try and pull shit like that, I'll be forced to point out that until and unless you pass the bar, you're not my colleague at all. -_-

Fundamentally, any degree which is your first course of study ought to be termed a bachelor's degree.  Just because many programs now require a degree in an unrelated area as a pre-requisite for admission does not make them a master's degree.

But fundamentally, focusing on the doctor part of your degree is frnkly emphasizing the wrong part.  What's important is that you have a degree in law.

I got a Masters in Education without getting a Bachelor's in Education.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 20, 2012, 12:49:49 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 19, 2012, 11:48:48 PM
But fundamentally, focusing on the doctor part of your degree is frnkly emphasizing the wrong part.  What's important is that you have a degree in law.

Hey, it's not like I named the thing.

If I'd been Dean Langdell, I'd have named it a master's of law.  LL.M.s did not, I believe, exist at the time, so I'd have named that, when they did arise, "LL.D." or something similar.

You are mistaken.

LL.M. has existed for a lot longer than the JD.  US Law Schools traditionally handed down the noble LL.B. degree, which could be followed up by the LL.M.  It was only in the 60s when many schools converted their LL.B. to a JD.  Apparently if you dig around you can still find a few ancient professors whose CV lists them as having a LL.B.

Quote from: ideologue
In any event, I can split the difference with you: academically, it is not strictly a master's degree; but as far as effect in the wider world outside law (where it is a professional degree and, generally speaking, a required certification), it should be treated as a non-field (or in some cases--e.g. public administration, business, political science [lol]--allied field) master's degree.  Would that be acceptable to you?

It should be treated as its own unique thing - a professional degree. 

I agree with everything you said above except I think you're overlooking how important student loans have been viz. the roll-out of master's programs; I certainly agree, however, that once that money was left on the table, it was colleges' desire for money and the things money can buy that created the inexorable bubble phenomenon in terms of continuing (and undergrad) education, even if the demands of above-average students who wished to differentiate or enhance themselves is what gave it its initial impetus.  The outcome has been, as you say, significantly greater educational expenditure and debt, with no significant benefits for students or society.*

*Although arguably the undergrad experience is an effective means of social control.  I have no figures, only a suspicion, but I imagine that giving young men money to dick around for four years, and maybe learning something during them, reduces a lot of the risk otherwise associated with that demographic, even if it often does not make them substantially more employable, and wonder if that's part of the reason violent crime has declined in the past few decades.

Quote from: BarristerIt should be treated as its own unique thing - a professional degree. 

So of no value outside of the narrow confines of the law?  Think carefully about your answer, because there are about 20,000 J.D.s per year (and have been for about a decade) who do not and shall not work, or engage in significant work, within the legal field...

At Hopkins, we always gave the Brits and Indians the option of putting 'MD' on their ID badges, because so many people didn't know what an MBBS was over here, and it would often confuse them.

WHADDYA MEAN HES JUST GOT TWO BACHELORS DEGREES

Quote from: Ideologue on February 20, 2012, 01:12:44 AM

Quote from: BarristerIt should be treated as its own unique thing - a professional degree. 

So of no value outside of the narrow confines of the law?  Think carefully about your answer, because there are about 20,000 J.D.s per year (and have been for about a decade) who do not and shall not work, or engage in significant work, within the legal field...

As you are finding, a law degree is of fairly limited value outside of the practice of law.

By the way, have I yet mentioned the fact that many Canadian schools are switching from the LL.B. to the J.D. is a major pet peeve of mine?

How would you call someone with a PhD in law? That's what we call a "doctor juris" here.

Quote from: Zanza on February 20, 2012, 02:18:37 AM
How would you call someone with a PhD in law? That's what we call a "doctor juris" here.

The terminal degree in law is the S.J.D. (scientiae juridicae doctor).

Here's a wrinkle.  Obviously a lot of J.D.s are professors at law schools, but I was wondering about one of my profs, who also taught undergrads and graduate students in another department.

Quote from: USC School of Journalism and Mass CommunicationsJay Bender
Visiting Professor
Reid H. Montgomery Freedom of Information Chair

B.A. Univ. of South Carolina
J.D. Univ. of South Carolina

So, they let a guy with just two bachelor's degrees teach at the college level.  For shame, right?

Quote from: Zanza on February 20, 2012, 02:18:37 AM
How would you call someone with a PhD in law? That's what we call a "doctor juris" here.

Most law profs have a LL.M.

I think a couple of schools do offer an actual PhD in law.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 20, 2012, 02:29:43 AM
Here's a wrinkle.  Obviously a lot of J.D.s are professors at law schools, but I was wondering about one of my profs, who also taught undergrads and graduate students in another department.

Quote from: USC School of Journalism and Mass CommunicationsJay Bender
Visiting Professor
Reid H. Montgomery Freedom of Information Chair

B.A. Univ. of South Carolina
J.D. Univ. of South Carolina

So, they let a guy with just two bachelor's degrees teach at the college level.  For shame, right?

Meh - he doesn't have tenure, does he?  They let all kinds of practitioners teach in law school.

BB, you're still a fucking foreigner. So stop yapping about what you don't know about down here.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
BB, you're still a fucking foreigner. So stop yapping about what you don't know about down here.

Did you suddenly go to law school when I was napping?

How about being called to the bar?

No?

So I think I know who knows what they are talking about in this conversation.

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 03:00:01 AM
How about being called to the bar?

Didn't he stop answering those calls long time ago?

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 20, 2012, 03:04:07 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 03:00:01 AM
How about being called to the bar?

Didn't he stop answering those calls long time ago?

The best part of becoming a Crown was no longer having to take calls from drunks at 3am. 

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 03:06:11 AM

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 20, 2012, 03:04:07 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 03:00:01 AM
How about being called to the bar?

Didn't he stop answering those calls long time ago?

The best part of becoming a Crown was no longer having to take calls from drunks at 3am.

I've still got your number.

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 03:00:01 AM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2012, 02:57:14 AM
BB, you're still a fucking foreigner. So stop yapping about what you don't know about down here.

Did you suddenly go to law school when I was napping?

How about being called to the bar?

No?

So I think I know who knows what they are talking about in this conversation.

I didn't have to go to Lawlz School to know a J.D. isn't the equivalent of a Bachelors.  Counselor. :P

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 01:09:36 AM
It should be treated as its own unique thing - a professional degree.

The "J.D." is an artifact of civil service pay scales that gave $X for a bachelors, $X + Y for a masters, and $X + Y + Z for a doctorate.  Lawyers immediately gamed the system.  And civil service rules don't play well with "its own unique thing."

Quote from: ulmont on February 20, 2012, 09:46:58 AM

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 01:09:36 AM
It should be treated as its own unique thing - a professional degree.

The "J.D." is an artifact of civil service pay scales that gave $X for a bachelors, $X + Y for a masters, and $X + Y + Z for a doctorate.  Lawyers immediately gamed the system.  And civil service rules don't play well with "its own unique thing."

:huh:

Speaking as a Legal Officer 2 (in GOA-speak), we certainly do have our own unique pay scale...

JDs were a marketing gimmick more than anything.  Schools that offered them instead of LLBs got more applicants because the JD was considered more saleable - although they are the same thing.  That is the main reason Canadian law schools are making the switch from LLB to JD.  I can now get my JD retroactively now that my law school switched over.  But I prefer to call it what it is.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
JDs were a marketing gimmick more than anything.  Schools that offered them instead of LLBs got more applicants because the JD was considered more saleable - although they are the same thing.  That is the main reason Canadian law schools are making the switch from LLB to JD.  I can now get my JD retroactively now that my law school switched over.  But I prefer to call it what it is.

You of course have the advantage of a successful practice that won't be affected in the slightest by whatever you call it :cheers:

For my part, I never even finished my bachelor's degree. I've worked with very successful people in games who didn't even graduate highschool - there's not that many of them, but they're generally way more competent than the dicks with MBAs.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 01:30:11 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
JDs were a marketing gimmick more than anything.  Schools that offered them instead of LLBs got more applicants because the JD was considered more saleable - although they are the same thing.  That is the main reason Canadian law schools are making the switch from LLB to JD.  I can now get my JD retroactively now that my law school switched over.  But I prefer to call it what it is.

You of course have the advantage of a successful practice that won't be affected in the slightest by whatever you call it :cheers:

For my part, I never even finished my bachelor's degree. I've worked with very successful people in games who didn't even graduate highschool - there's not that many of them, but they're generally way more competent than the dicks with MBAs.

You and your colleagues' failures to get degrees demonstrate the inability to follow through with anything. Thus, you will all fail personally and professionally.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 01:30:11 PM
For my part, I never even finished my bachelor's degree. I've worked with very successful people in games who didn't even graduate highschool - there's not that many of them, but they're generally way more competent than the dicks with MBAs.

Out of all our uber cyberwarriors, I think only one has a degree.  Everyone else merely attended. 
Smartest cyberwarrior I ever met didn't have a single college credit under his belt.  Which is why he left.  No upward mobility without artificial validation to hang on the wall.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 01:30:11 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
JDs were a marketing gimmick more than anything.  Schools that offered them instead of LLBs got more applicants because the JD was considered more saleable - although they are the same thing.  That is the main reason Canadian law schools are making the switch from LLB to JD.  I can now get my JD retroactively now that my law school switched over.  But I prefer to call it what it is.

You of course have the advantage of a successful practice that won't be affected in the slightest by whatever you call it :cheers:

For my part, I never even finished my bachelor's degree. I've worked with very successful people in games who didn't even graduate highschool - there's not that many of them, but they're generally way more competent than the dicks with MBAs.

You are going to have to explain what the heck that has to do with the discussion of whether law degrees are properly an LLB or a JD.

I used to know a lot of IT people who made great living with no formal education. A lot of them got started in the 70s and 80s and had so much experience in big positions that by the 90s they were the seasoned pros when everyone was getting into IT and in the 2000s they were often upper management. One of them was making well into the 6-figures at Kodak as a lead manager right under the CIO (or CTO, can't recall.) Anyway when Kodak started its march towards bankruptcy a few years ago he lost his job and after about 6 months he went to school at UGA. Despite being like 45 or so and with 25 years of experience at various major companies he said he found that without a degree he was no longer able to get hired. He said he wasn't even able to get a temp job at a help desk or such because he didn't hold certain certifications.

I'm in that same situation, like a few of my workmates.

I hated studying and dropped out after I started working. I've got plenty of experience, but no degree beyond my high school diploma. I've been pondering what to do about that if I get laid off in the next couple of years.

Some of the people I went to school with thought I was crazy spending all that time in university.  They thought it was much better to just drop out and get right into the job market...

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 02:13:16 PM
You are going to have to explain what the heck that has to do with the discussion of whether law degrees are properly an LLB or a JD.

The first part was a comment on your decision to call your qualification an LLB rather than a JD. You have the luxury (and indeed choice) to call it either; whatever you call it doesn't matter at all to your successful established practice. For others there maybe a perceived advantage to call it a JD over an LLB (or vice versa, if the people making the hiring decisions are particularly militant in their idiosyncrasies). That's a good thing.

The second part was not particularly pursuant to the law degree discussion, but rather related to the separate thread of the conversation dealing with general degree inflation.

Quote from: Phillip V on February 20, 2012, 01:53:20 PMYou and your colleagues' failures to get degrees demonstrate the inability to follow through with anything. Thus, you will all fail personally and professionally.

Failing with a six figure salary is okay, I think, even in this day and age.

Not that I'm making six figures. This start up business doesn't pay that well up front (and maybe not in the end either).

Quote from: Iormlund on February 20, 2012, 03:37:45 PM
I'm in that same situation, like a few of my workmates.

I hated studying and dropped out after I started working. I've got plenty of experience, but no degree beyond my high school diploma. I've been pondering what to do about that if I get laid off in the next couple of years.

I enjoy school, but when the job I was after became available before graduation it seemed a bit silly to stay in school.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 03:56:37 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 02:13:16 PM
You are going to have to explain what the heck that has to do with the discussion of whether law degrees are properly an LLB or a JD.

The first part was a comment on your decision to call your qualification an LLB rather than a JD. You have the luxury (and indeed choice) to call it either; whatever you call it doesn't matter at all to your successful established practice.

I see.   However, you are ignoring the fact that I compete with thousands of lawyers who have the change because they think it makes them more saleable to clients who might think a JD is more prestigeous.  However, my view is that my degree should be called what it is and not some marketing gimmick.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 03:58:59 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on February 20, 2012, 01:53:20 PMYou and your colleagues' failures to get degrees demonstrate the inability to follow through with anything. Thus, you will all fail personally and professionally.

Failing with a six figure salary is okay, I think, even in this day and age.

Not that I'm making six figures. This start up business doesn't pay that well up front (and maybe not in the end either).

However, you are the exception are you not?  Would you counsel your kids, when you have them, to roll the dice and take the chance of being successful without a degree in their hip pocket?

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 04:16:22 PMHowever, you are the exception are you not?  Would you counsel your kids, when you have them, to roll the dice and take the chance of being successful without a degree in their hip pocket?

Oh fuck yeah.

I'm not advocating not getting a degree, not at all. My kids are getting educated out the yin-yang if I, or their mom, has any say in the matter. Personally, I'd love to finish my degree and get another one, if I could find the time.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 04:14:37 PMI see.   However, you are ignoring the fact that I compete with thousands of lawyers who have the change because they think it makes them more saleable to clients who might think a JD is more prestigeous.  However, my view is that my degree should be called what it is and not some marketing gimmick.

Really? I had no idea.

I would've thought that you get most of your clients based on referrals from previous clients, return business and your litigation record (like "let's hire the bastard who beat us last time, he was good" or maybe more likely "this fellow was successful with a case in this area, let's go with him").

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 03:40:02 PM
Some of the people I went to school with thought I was crazy spending all that time in university.  They thought it was much better to just drop out and get right into the job market...

So people jumped in to pay down their student loan debts, and you waiting to accumulate twice as much loan debt.
Six in one, half dozen in the other.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 02:13:16 PM

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 01:30:11 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
JDs were a marketing gimmick more than anything.  Schools that offered them instead of LLBs got more applicants because the JD was considered more saleable - although they are the same thing.  That is the main reason Canadian law schools are making the switch from LLB to JD.  I can now get my JD retroactively now that my law school switched over.  But I prefer to call it what it is.

You of course have the advantage of a successful practice that won't be affected in the slightest by whatever you call it :cheers:

For my part, I never even finished my bachelor's degree. I've worked with very successful people in games who didn't even graduate highschool - there's not that many of them, but they're generally way more competent than the dicks with MBAs.

You are going to have to explain what the heck that has to do with the discussion of whether law degrees are properly an LLB or a JD.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what a degree is called, since the important part is that it is a degree which allows you to be qualified to practice law.  If they're going to be a JD, then so be it.

But what matters is people who think they have a master's level education at the end of it.

In the end, whether it is a JD or an LLBean, they are still lawyer scum.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 04:20:38 PMPersonally, I'd love to finish my degree and get another one, if I could find the time.

Same here. I know I would get much more from it now than then as well.

On a related note, I just enrolled at my first course at Udacity (http://www.udacity.com/): CS 373: PROGRAMMING A ROBOTIC CAR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bdCnb0EFAzk).

Quote from: PDH on February 20, 2012, 04:53:29 PM
In the end, whether it is a JD or an LLBean, they are still lawyer scum.

Only once they pass the bar. :menace:

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 04:16:22 PM

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 03:58:59 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on February 20, 2012, 01:53:20 PMYou and your colleagues' failures to get degrees demonstrate the inability to follow through with anything. Thus, you will all fail personally and professionally.

Failing with a six figure salary is okay, I think, even in this day and age.

Not that I'm making six figures. This start up business doesn't pay that well up front (and maybe not in the end either).

However, you are the exception are you not?  Would you counsel your kids, when you have them, to roll the dice and take the chance of being successful without a degree in their hip pocket?

Our kids can be exceptions, too. :D

I am in the 6-figure salary camp with no degree. However, I am slowly working on a Bachelor of Art in History from an online degree mill.

I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

Quote from: Phillip V on February 21, 2012, 01:02:43 AMI am in the 6-figure salary camp with no degree.

I thought you are some kind of NCO in the military? I am surprised the military pays that well.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
I see.   However, you are ignoring the fact that I compete with thousands of lawyers who have the change because they think it makes them more saleable to clients who might think a JD is more prestigeous.  However, my view is that my degree should be called what it is and not some marketing gimmick.

These are just names.  Your degree isn't what it is called, it is what it taught.  I find it strange that you believe these degree names have some significance other than to designate a degree of educational accomplishment, and that one degree name is true and one a gimmick.

Not that I care what names you use for your degree, but you might want to consider the idea that the purpose of language is communication.  If retaining the LL.M designation sends the right message to your audience, then it is logical to keep it.  If it sends the wrong message, then it is silly to keep it.  Labels are just labels.

Quote from: Zanza on February 21, 2012, 06:04:02 AM

Quote from: Phillip V on February 21, 2012, 01:02:43 AMI am in the 6-figure salary camp with no degree.

I thought you are some kind of NCO in the military? I am surprised the military pays that well.

Position/organization > rank.

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 04:23:28 PM
Really? I had no idea.

I would've thought that you get most of your clients based on referrals from previous clients, return business and your litigation record (like "let's hire the bastard who beat us last time, he was good" or maybe more likely "this fellow was successful with a case in this area, let's go with him").

That is a source of work yes.  But all those people are also testing the waters with any number of other lawyers before they choose who will actually be retained.  Litigation is more of a one off thing since most people dont usually need the services of a litigator very often.   The exception to that are large clients who have a steady stream of litigation.   The competition for those clients is, as you can imagine, ongoing...

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2012, 04:25:15 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 03:40:02 PM
Some of the people I went to school with thought I was crazy spending all that time in university.  They thought it was much better to just drop out and get right into the job market...

So people jumped in to pay down their student loan debts, and you waiting to accumulate twice as much loan debt.
Six in one, half dozen in the other.

Not really.  The amount of income I earn as opposed to those who dropped out earlier greatly exceeds the greater amount I incurred in debt.

Quote from: Barrister on February 20, 2012, 05:02:41 PM

Quote from: PDH on February 20, 2012, 04:53:29 PM
In the end, whether it is a JD or an LLBean, they are still lawyer scum.

Only once they pass the bar. :menace:

Actually only once they get called to the bar.  Your American friends dont have articles which is a large obstacle for Canadian law students to overcome atm.

Quote from: grumbler on February 21, 2012, 07:30:38 AM
but you might want to consider the idea that the purpose of language is communication. 

Yes Grumbler it is.  Now that you have realized this perhaps we will see a change in your posting style.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 22, 2012, 02:11:24 PM

Quote from: grumbler on February 21, 2012, 07:30:38 AM
but you might want to consider the idea that the purpose of language is communication. 

Yes Grumbler it is.  Now that you have realized this perhaps we will see a change in your posting style.

And since you haven't realized this, I presume that we will not see a change in yours.

grumbler and crazy canuck, what are you guys talking about?

Grumbler once again took a cheap shot and objects to being called on it.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 22, 2012, 02:26:53 PM
Grumbler once again took a cheap shot and objects to being called on it.

In other words, I again pointed out the inanity of a point CC made (to the effect that he didn't care that what he called an LL.M was referred to by everyone else as a J.D.; he considered the popular term to be a "marketing gimmick" and his unpopular one "what it is" even though both are just labels taken from a dead language), he tried to get snippy, in a humorously bungled way.

I certainly don't have a dog in the LL.M versus JD fight, but I found the idea that the label "Legum Magister" is more "what [something] is" than "Juris Doctor" highly amusing.  There certainly may be good reasons to prefer to use LL.M rather than JD, but "what it is" doesn't strike me as one of the possibilities.

I see, so you didnt understand the history of how LLBs came to be called JDs. 

Isn't it LLBs that became JDs?

The point I thought was to 'game' the system of comparative "worth" of degrees in wholly different fields - that some bureaucracies were handing out certain salary perks for having degrees, based on the academic bachelor - master - doctorate triad. Lawyers felt they were getting shortchanged by having a degree that said it was a "bachelor" in the title, and (presumably) having their degree rank with a lowly bachlorate in the pay-scale.

Naturally, lawyers in typical legal practice don't care, because no client cares what you call your degree.

Edit: the controversy reminds me somewhat of the Dr. Suess story The Sneeches: soon enough, those of us who have LLBs will be scarce, and thus more prestigeous.  :D

fixed it.  thanks.

Anyway, I'm sorta in agreement with BB - calling it a "doctorate" or a "bachlorate" are both not really on point, because both indicate a comparison with other degrees that isn't really all that accurate. Professional degrees are not really easily compared with academic degrees or other professional degrees, doing so tends to be misleading rather than helpful.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 20, 2012, 01:25:06 AM
At Hopkins, we always gave the Brits and Indians the option of putting 'MD' on their ID badges, because so many people didn't know what an MBBS was over here, and it would often confuse them.

WHADDYA MEAN HES JUST GOT TWO BACHELORS DEGREES

What difference would that make?  Don't Americans assume that foreign credentials are worthless anyways?

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 22, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
I see, so you didnt understand the history of how LLBs came to be called JDs.

It's because Harvard's seminary, med school, and some other school were all more loftily named, iirc. and also because of Dean Langdell's insistence upon a more theoretical course of study, thereby fucking up the training of American lawyers for all time.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

And you guys still don't believe that I was better off leaving Vancouver.  Sorry, can't resist.

Vancouver isn't in the U.S. :secret:

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

I'm an accountant and GF is.. uhm i don't know what the hell he is now but he works in an office.


*edit* er missed the american part... carry on.

Reading is fundamental, guys.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:11:48 PM
Vancouver isn't in the U.S. :secret:

A close enough approximation  :sleep:

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:22:43 PM
Reading is fundamental, guys.

over rated :P

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

Iirc Alci is in school, as am I, so there's still hope.

Although, I think Alci is going through ROTC. :hmm:

Lettow's in school too. :P

I wasn't counting military service as mainstream, since it's potentially life-disruptive and isn't necessarily 9-5, 40 hours a week, and if you just walk out it's like a crime or something.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:53:30 PM
Lettow's in school too. :P

I wasn't counting military service as mainstream, since it's potentially life-disruptive and isn't necessarily 9-5, 40 hours a week, and if you just walk out it's like a crime or something.

Yeah the military sucks. Good thing I left it. :P

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:11:48 PM
Vancouver isn't in the U.S. :secret:

Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 22, 2012, 11:37:10 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:11:48 PM
Vancouver isn't in the U.S. :secret:

Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

And the horror of having to pre-pay for the privilege. :(

That's not alien to the U.S., I assure you.

Quote from: Phillip V on February 21, 2012, 01:02:43 AM

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 20, 2012, 04:16:22 PM

Quote from: Jacob on February 20, 2012, 03:58:59 PM

Quote from: Phillip V on February 20, 2012, 01:53:20 PMYou and your colleagues' failures to get degrees demonstrate the inability to follow through with anything. Thus, you will all fail personally and professionally.

Failing with a six figure salary is okay, I think, even in this day and age.

Not that I'm making six figures. This start up business doesn't pay that well up front (and maybe not in the end either).

However, you are the exception are you not?  Would you counsel your kids, when you have them, to roll the dice and take the chance of being successful without a degree in their hip pocket?

Our kids can be exceptions, too. :D

I am in the 6-figure salary camp with no degree. However, I am slowly working on a Bachelor of Art in History from an online degree mill.

Bingo

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 22, 2012, 11:12:00 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:53:30 PM
Lettow's in school too. :P

I wasn't counting military service as mainstream, since it's potentially life-disruptive and isn't necessarily 9-5, 40 hours a week, and if you just walk out it's like a crime or something.

Yeah the military sucks. Good thing I left it. :P

No it doesn't.

Quote from: 11B4V on February 23, 2012, 12:08:03 AM

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 22, 2012, 11:12:00 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:53:30 PM
Lettow's in school too. :P

I wasn't counting military service as mainstream, since it's potentially life-disruptive and isn't necessarily 9-5, 40 hours a week, and if you just walk out it's like a crime or something.

Yeah the military sucks. Good thing I left it. :P

No it doesn't.

It's not for everyone. 

But also, it has opportunities for a wide range of people.  If you want to be a hardass, you can join the Marines.  If you're gay, the Navy.  If you like dealing with a constant diarrhea of stupid bullshit, there is the Army.  If you want to be a semi-lazy computer gamer, there are Air Force jobs like the one I have.  :P

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 12:04:16 AM
That's not alien to the U.S., I assure you.

But as a matter of law? :bleeding:

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 22, 2012, 11:37:10 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:11:48 PM
Vancouver isn't in the U.S. :secret:

Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

God I hate crossing that river, Washingtonians are horrible drivers.  Unfortunately I have friends up there and that is where most of the large get-togethers end up.

Quote from: sbr on February 23, 2012, 12:42:12 AM

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 22, 2012, 11:37:10 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 10:11:48 PM
Vancouver isn't in the U.S. :secret:

Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

God I hate crossing that river, Washingtonians are horrible drivers.  Unfortunately I have friends up there and that is where most of the large get-togethers end up.

I've driven across Oregon a number of times, you guys aren't any better.

But then, I pretty much think drivers everywhere suck at this point.

And this is also true....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkxaF5Pq5D8

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 22, 2012, 11:37:10 PM
Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

When I moved to Oregon, it was a 2200-mile road trip. I remember very vividly getting out of the car at a gas station to fill it and having the attendant RUN in my direction, waving his hands around and saying "no no no" like I had dynamite strapped to my chest.

Quote from: fahdiz on February 23, 2012, 01:12:43 AM

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 22, 2012, 11:37:10 PM
Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

When I moved to Oregon, it was a 2200-mile road trip. I remember very vividly getting out of the car at a gas station to fill it and having the attendant RUN in my direction, waving his hands around and saying "no no no" like I had dynamite strapped to my chest.

Gasoline is dangerous business.  Leave it to the experts.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1.ranker.com%2Fnode_img%2F59%2F486839%2F300%2F1.jpg&hash=41ee4d26c848179adf9e44ec11e964863ed6176f)

Quote from: fahdiz on February 23, 2012, 01:12:43 AM

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 22, 2012, 11:37:10 PM
Sure it is.  It's where people like Fahdiz can go across the river and experience the exhilaration of pumping their own gas.

When I moved to Oregon, it was a 2200-mile road trip. I remember very vividly getting out of the car at a gas station to fill it and having the attendant RUN in my direction, waving his hands around and saying "no no no" like I had dynamite strapped to my chest.

Try that shit in New Jersey.  They yell at you, too.  But in Spanish.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 07:14:05 AM

Quote from: fahdiz on February 23, 2012, 01:12:43 AM
When I moved to Oregon, it was a 2200-mile road trip. I remember very vividly getting out of the car at a gas station to fill it and having the attendant RUN in my direction, waving his hands around and saying "no no no" like I had dynamite strapped to my chest.

Try that shit in New Jersey.  They yell at you, too.  But in Spanish.

"No no no" is the same in Spanish. :alberta:(pretend that's a sombrero)

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 22, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
I see, so you didnt understand the history of how LLBs came to be called JDs.

:lmfao:  As Malthus points out, that would be you who doesn't understand.

I rest my case.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
Try that shit in New Jersey.  They yell at you, too.  But in Spanish.

Sometimes when I'm in Jersey I forget about that law.  As soon as I get out and the attendant starts walking towards me:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bttfstore.com%2Fbttf_fire_trails.jpg&hash=56992742b32ca1ed9a126332cc0781a436266ced)
It's a good thing it's a small state.  Hello, Delaware. :cool:

Quote from: Caliga on February 23, 2012, 07:34:56 AM
It's a good thing it's a small state.  Hello, Delaware. :cool:

Only thing worth going to Delaware for was the cigarette prices.

OMG I JUST LOVE THE WHOLE DUPONT MOTIF YOUVE GOT THERE

Quote from: Barrister on February 23, 2012, 12:36:10 AM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 12:04:16 AM
That's not alien to the U.S., I assure you.

But as a matter of law? :bleeding:

Yeah.  That law is proof that lawyers are stupid.

Quote from: HVC on February 22, 2012, 10:14:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

I'm an accountant and GF is.. uhm i don't know what the hell he is now but he works in an office.


*edit* er missed the american part... carry on.

Even our semi-illiterate Canadians, eggplants and frogs alike, have jobs!

Take that, Mono.  :D

Quote from: HVC on February 22, 2012, 10:14:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

I'm an accountant and GF is.. uhm i don't know what the hell he is now but he works in an office.


*edit* er missed the american part... carry on.

I test & design machine vision software.

I don't know how to title that, neither does my employer.

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2012, 09:46:00 AM
I don't know how to title that,

"Techie"

Quote from: Malthus on February 23, 2012, 09:41:20 AM

Even our semi-illiterate Canadians, eggplants and frogs alike, have jobs!

Take that, Mono.  :D

woo hoo I've been upgraded to semi-illiterate! . Take that hooked-on-phonics! :D

Quote from: Malthus on February 23, 2012, 09:41:20 AM

Quote from: HVC on February 22, 2012, 10:14:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

I'm an accountant and GF is.. uhm i don't know what the hell he is now but he works in an office.


*edit* er missed the american part... carry on.

Even our semi-illiterate Canadians, eggplants and frogs alike, have jobs!

Take that, Mono.  :D

I'm completely litterate by addition.

Quote from: 11B4V on February 23, 2012, 12:08:03 AM
No it doesn't.

You're right. I was being a bit too simplistic. Forgive me; it was late and I was tired.

I actually enjoyed my first four years in. I was a commo guy in an infantry battalion. I wasn't quite right on the front-line but I wasn't lounging around in an olympic-sized pool in Qatar, either. I felt like I was really doing my part, in the middle of it all. I really liked my job and I was exceedingly good at it.

During our second deployment we lost a lot of guys. One of whom was a very good friend of mine. Oddly, it didn't seem to shake me up at first. A couple of months passed, however, and I started feeling depressed. The camaraderie and sense of purpose of the army began to be balanced out by the suffering and the loss.

My last three years in the service were at a command-level headquarters. It was interesting and a little fun at first. I got to hob-knob with birds and stars and other Grumbler-like personalities. I even met the CJCS. But I started taking a hard look at the way the place was run, and the atmosphere it engendered: all the politicking and jockeying for position and the disregard for others. There was absolutely no sense of camaraderie here. Places like this were where the really hard decisions were supposed to be made, and it didn't fill me with any sort of confidence. I started to hate it and I slowly became jaded. So quietly I let my enlistment expire. Now I'm trying to get one of these "Degress" everyone in this thread is talking about.

Like Toni said, it ain't for everyone. I'm still proud of my service, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but the most diehard military-minded folks.

That's my army story.  :D

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
I got to hob-knob with birds and stars and other Grumbler-like personalities.

For some reason, that's just balls ass funny.

The best time to enlist is when there is "lots" of war, and no one wants to join.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 11:55:28 AM

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
I got to hob-knob with birds and stars and other Grumbler-like personalities.

For some reason, that's just balls ass funny.

There are many like him, but this one is ours.

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 12:17:59 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 11:55:28 AM

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
I got to hob-knob with birds and stars and other Grumbler-like personalities.

For some reason, that's just balls ass funny.

There are many like him, but this one is ours.

Where were all the Hansies?   Digging out jelly donuts from footlockers? Or just making PowerPoints all day about jelly donuts and footlockers?

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 12:25:54 PM

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 12:17:59 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 11:55:28 AM

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
I got to hob-knob with birds and stars and other Grumbler-like personalities.

For some reason, that's just balls ass funny.

There are many like him, but this one is ours.

Where were all the Hansies?    just making PowerPoints all day ?

Nail on de head

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 11:53:48 AM
My last three years in the service were at a command-level headquarters. It was interesting and a little fun at first. I got to hob-knob with birds and stars and other Grumbler-like personalities. I even met the CJCS. But I started taking a hard look at the way the place was run, and the atmosphere it engendered: all the politicking and jockeying for position and the disregard for others. There was absolutely no sense of camaraderie here. Places like this were where the really hard decisions were supposed to be made, and it didn't fill me with any sort of confidence.

My first tour in the Five-Sided Playpen was much like this; it really did seem to be that decisions were made for all the wrong reasons, and that every policy project went through the same five phases:

1.  Enthusiasm
2.  Disillusionment
3.  Panic
4. The search for the scapegoats
5.  Rewards and praise for non-participants.

My second tour, as a senior officer, let me see that things were not as bad as I had thought, though still bad enough.  It was more possible to get sensible policy decisions than I thought as a JO, but sensible decisions were still in the minority.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 12:25:54 PM
Where were all the Hansies?   Digging out jelly donuts from footlockers? Or just making PowerPoints all day about jelly donuts and footlockers?

I remember one particular mandatory briefing about the repeal of DADT. The legal folks couldn't get a word in because some old white-haired O-4 (probably reservist) kept on bleating about his religion and gays.  :lol:

Quote from: FunkMonk on February 23, 2012, 02:08:35 PM
The legal folks couldn't get a word in because some old white-haired O-4 (probably reservist) kept on bleating about his religion and gays.  :lol:

He was probably the biggest closet fag in the room, too.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 03:05:40 PM
He was probably the biggest closet fag in the room, too.

"I confront them in the showers in order to convert them."

Quote from: Grey Fox on February 23, 2012, 09:46:00 AM

Quote from: HVC on February 22, 2012, 10:14:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 22, 2012, 09:32:10 PM

Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on February 21, 2012, 04:28:30 AM
I have a B.A., a high GPA and a few honors, but am making ~$24,000 a year <_<
At least I enjoy my job :)

I find it interesting that of all Languish's under-30 American crowd, the only one who has a mainstream job is garbo.  Fireblade works for the higher education scam, and you, Tim, and soon I will be expatriates.

I guess it's some consolation to know that the world language will survive America.

I'm an accountant and GF is.. uhm i don't know what the hell he is now but he works in an office.


*edit* er missed the american part... carry on.

I test & design machine vision software.

I don't know how to title that, neither does my employer.

My guess would be "machine vision software designer."  Perhaps there is no equivalent in French.

Quote from: fahdiz on February 23, 2012, 03:06:55 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 03:05:40 PM
He was probably the biggest closet fag in the room, too.

"I confront them in the showers in order to convert them."

It's like Jesus on the mountain.  He saw the supple man ass below, and told Satan, "No way, Jose."  I might be misremembering exactly what that part says.

Quote from: fahdiz on February 23, 2012, 03:06:55 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 03:05:40 PM
He was probably the biggest closet fag in the room, too.

"I confront them in the showers in order to convert them."

LOL, "Yes, that way they're at a distinct disadvantage, and temporarily distracted by my erect penis.  THEY'LL NEVER EXPECT THAT!"

You never bring your hard-on to a knife fight.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
LOL, "Yes, that way they're at a distinct disadvantage, and temporarily distracted by my erect penis.  THEY'LL NEVER EXPECT THAT!"

"It's hard for you to run away from the Word of the Lord when you're impaled on my Republicock!"

After dealing with doctors for the past 7 days, I'd like to punch every one of those over schooled people in the nuts.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
After dealing with doctors for the past 7 days, I'd like to punch every one of those over schooled people in the nuts.

They rape you?

I remember Korea's old gynecologist, some numbnut from Maharashtra or similar.

He:

1)observed a cervical anomaly that did not, it turns out, exist;
2)fucked up a biopsy, in that he cut out something like half a cubic centimeter of cervical tissue;
3)accused me of having HPV; and
4)looked confused when I asked him about an antibody test.

The gyno from America that she eventually went to told her there was nothing wrong with her (except a scar from Maharashtra's maiming ministration), and that there was no evidence that either one of us had HPV.

This guy was the worst, but I've never been convinced that doctors, on the whole, were particularly smart.

Quote from: Phillip V on February 23, 2012, 04:31:29 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
After dealing with doctors for the past 7 days, I'd like to punch every one of those over schooled people in the nuts.

They rape you?

How's the PTSD's? Maybe when the cops shoot you when you go psycho, we can find out how well the doctors treat you. If you aren't on a slab.

I'm confused.  Is there backstory to which I have not been introduced?

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 05:12:50 PM
I'm confused.  Is there backstory to which I have not been introduced?

P5 is a douche?

Fair enough, although that label applies to all of us by turns, except Tim.

PTSD implied something more specific.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 05:16:24 PM
Fair enough, although that label applies to all of us by turns, except Tim.

PTSD implied something more specific.

Was the action that P5 supposed was forced upon Ed, specific?

Gosh, I hope not.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
After dealing with doctors for the past 7 days, I'd like to punch every one of those over schooled people in the nuts.

Do what I do.  Whatever they discuss with you, tell them that's not the information you  got when you diagnosed yourself from the internet.  They love that.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 05:22:16 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
After dealing with doctors for the past 7 days, I'd like to punch every one of those over schooled people in the nuts.

Do what I do.  Whatever they discuss with you, tell them that's not the information you  got when you diagnosed yourself from the internet.  They love that.

I was WebMD...

Quote from: fahdiz on February 23, 2012, 04:03:34 PM

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 03:51:39 PM
LOL, "Yes, that way they're at a distinct disadvantage, and temporarily distracted by my erect penis.  THEY'LL NEVER EXPECT THAT!"

"It's hard for you to run away from the Word of the Lord when you're impaled on my Republicock!"

Bumper sticker material.  :D

Quote from: garbon on February 23, 2012, 05:18:17 PM
Was the action that P5 supposed was forced upon Ed, specific?

I suppose he could have interpreted desire to punch somebody in the nuts as having some kind of sexual overtones. Though that seems rather a mild reply, a rape victim would be more apt to want to cut off their oppressor's nuts.

Quote from: CountDeMoney on February 23, 2012, 05:22:16 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
After dealing with doctors for the past 7 days, I'd like to punch every one of those over schooled people in the nuts.

Do what I do.  Whatever they discuss with you, tell them that's not the information you  got when you diagnosed yourself from the internet.  They love that.

Heh.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 05:12:50 PM
I'm confused.  Is there backstory to which I have not been introduced?

Whatshisname made a very stupid joke. Me, being in no mood for such stupidity, launched a Polaris missile.

I feel I must approve.

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 23, 2012, 06:15:31 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 05:12:50 PM
I'm confused.  Is there backstory to which I have not been introduced?

Whatshisname made a very stupid joke. Me, being in no mood for such stupidity, launched a Polaris missile.

Felt like it was in kind and an outcome of greater probability given his levity about rape.

I thought maybe Phil had PTSD or something.  Onward, Christian soldiers.

Quote from: Ideologue on February 23, 2012, 09:44:27 PM
I thought maybe Phil had PTSD or something.  Onward, Christian soldiers.

How do we know that he doesn't? :hmm:

Isn't he like 15? (doesn't mean he couldn't have it)

Quote from: Maximus on February 23, 2012, 11:12:17 PM
Isn't he like 15? (doesn't mean he couldn't have it)

when he joined sure, but that was half a decade or more ago now :P

You don't age on the internet.

I don't age in real life.

Truth, just look at your avatar.