This is a map (from a Polish newspaper, but based on Eurostat) showing unemployment among people below 25 y.o. I understand this does not include people who are studying/learning anything:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbi.gazeta.pl%2Fim%2F9%2F11066%2Fm11066909%2CBezrobocie-wsrod-mlodych-Europejczykow.jpg&hash=2c2d0f30002c471a31d120cf89dc6e2c496be0f9)
This looks like a ticking bomb to me.
It's good to not be young in Austria.
I wonder if some of the unemployed youths actually have jobs in the black market. They claim unemployment only to avoid taxes and regulation.
Yep. It sucks.
Especially since it includes only those not studying. Lots of people do extra studies when they can't find a job.
You all need more fast food joints Marty.
Kids are lazy. Film at 11.
I also wonder what percentage of the youth who ARE working are foreign-born (e.g. Turks in Germany, etc.)
Quote from: 11B4V on February 01, 2012, 06:24:19 AM
You all need more fast food joints Marty.
I'd imagine that lenient minimal wages, taxes, and legal troubles to lay off people makes it that much harder over here to legally hire youth to fast food joints. They use illegal Turkish workers instead
Quote from: Tamas on February 01, 2012, 07:54:38 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on February 01, 2012, 06:24:19 AM
You all need more fast food joints Marty.
I'd imagine that lenient minimal wages, taxes, and legal troubles to lay off people makes it that much harder over here to legally hire youth to fast food joints. They use illegal Turkish workers instead
Well see there you have it. Euro and USA are not all that different. We use mexicans.
Quote from: Caliga on February 01, 2012, 07:47:45 AM
I also wonder what percentage of the youth who ARE working are foreign-born (e.g. Turks in Germany, etc.)
It's the Protestant work ethic. :yes:
Quote from: Caliga on February 01, 2012, 07:47:45 AM
I also wonder what percentage of the youth who ARE working are foreign-born (e.g. Turks in Germany, etc.)
Just a sidenote, I doubt in Germany there are signifant amounts of Turks under 25 years of age who are not born in Germany.
Quote from: Caliga on February 01, 2012, 07:47:45 AM
I also wonder what percentage of the youth who ARE working are foreign-born (e.g. Turks in Germany, etc.)
Knowing Europe's penchant for systemic and encouraged xenophobia, probably not as many as an American would think.
Niemcy? WTF?
That is just crazy. How the F does that happen?
There is an aging population with smaller cadres coming of age behind them combined with early retirement ages...so the number of jobs must be collapsing at really fast rate for this to happen. I mean when people retire do they just cut the job and move forward? Does Europe just not require workers at all?
Granted we have pretty bad youth unemployment in the US as well but here the freaking Baby Boomers seem determined to work until they drop over dead.
Clearly Europe needs to invest in developing their oil sands. -_-
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2012, 09:44:15 AM
That is just crazy. How the F does that happen?
There is an aging population with smaller cadres coming of age behind them combined with early retirement ages...so the number of jobs must be collapsing at really fast rate for this to happen. I mean when people retire do they just cut the job and move forward? Does Europe just not require workers at all?
There's another factor affecting youth unemployment: two-tiered systems, where older workers are impossible to get rid of while new employees are very cheap (often free) to fire. So when the downturn comes older, less productive workers are kept and young employees get the axe.
Wait, this does NOT include students? Wow.
Its those inflexible labour markets that you keep on hearing about in action. The converse is that surprisingly few established workers have lost their jobs (speaking for the UK, there are probably as many stories as countries).
The problem for an unemployed young person in the UK is how to keep busy during the downturn so that a life of unemployment is avoided. Tyr going off to Japan is part of that tradition, during the early 80s many of my friends taught English in the Sudan, kids have it easy these days :P
The solution is to make it even more difficult to fire or lay off older workers. If they sat in that chair for 15 years, it should be guaranteed to them regardless of performance :)
edit: shit, I should have read page 2 before I posted my smartass yet insightful remark :(
black/grey market is what keeps European economy afloat :secret:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on February 01, 2012, 11:32:16 AM
Wait, this does NOT include students? Wow.
And the definition of 'students' is very broad. Here it includes, for example, those that are participating in one of the myriad recycling courses offered through the unemployment office or various unions/employer associations. And that's only one way of cooking the numbers.
So reality is actually worse than these figures.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 01, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Its those inflexible labour markets that you keep on hearing about in action. The converse is that surprisingly few established workers have lost their jobs (speaking for the UK, there are probably as many stories as countries).
The problem for an unemployed young person in the UK is how to keep busy during the downturn so that a life of unemployment is avoided.
Is "terrorist" an occupation, or just does it only count as volunteer work?
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
What do you consider young?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Niemcy? WTF?
Slavic term for Germans. Means something like "foreigner" or "mute" Similar to the Germanic root "Walla", which can be found in Wales, Waloons, Walachia.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 01, 2012, 10:01:43 AM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2012, 09:44:15 AM
That is just crazy. How the F does that happen?
There is an aging population with smaller cadres coming of age behind them combined with early retirement ages...so the number of jobs must be collapsing at really fast rate for this to happen. I mean when people retire do they just cut the job and move forward? Does Europe just not require workers at all?
There's another factor affecting youth unemployment: two-tiered systems, where older workers are impossible to get rid of while new employees are very cheap (often free) to fire. So when the downturn comes older, less productive workers are kept and young employees get the axe.
That's largely responsible but not the only reason. For example in my line of work people are more frequently hired on the basis of consultancy agreements (that are easier to terminate) but still you see the same phenomenon - that's because it pays off more for firms to keep experienced, older workers than to hire and train new people.
And because of the crisis, from 2008 firms almost stopped hiring new people, which result in the growing unemployment. More worrisome, even during the temporary pick up of 2011, firms would prefer to hire fresh graduates than people who graduated in, say, 2008 and haven't worked since then - now that 2012 looks a bit bleaker again, they stopped hiring again. So you are going eventually to end up with this "lost generation" of people who have not worked since 2008 or so - I wonder how the societies are going to deal with this problem eventually.
Quote from: HVC on February 01, 2012, 04:14:24 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
What do you consider young?
24 and under. 25 seems to be the age in which the fucknuts snap out of their stupid shit, buckle down and grow the fuck up.
Quote from: Razgovory on February 01, 2012, 04:14:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Niemcy? WTF?
Slavic term for Germans. Means something like "foreigner" or "mute" Similar to the Germanic root "Walla", which can be found in Wales, Waloons, Walachia.
Yeah, it means something like "mute" or "not of the speech". Since Slavic languages are similar and broadly understandable to each other, Germans were the first people Slavs met who spoke some gibberish. :P
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Niemcy? WTF?
In Russian, "Niemcy" means Germans. But actual Germany as a country is "Germania".
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 04:21:19 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Niemcy? WTF?
In Russian, "Niemcy" means Germans. But actual Germany as a country is "Germania".
In Polish, "Niemcy" means both Germans and Germany. The adjective "German" is "Niemiecki/a/ie"
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 01, 2012, 04:14:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 01, 2012, 09:31:37 AM
Niemcy? WTF?
Slavic term for Germans. Means something like "foreigner" or "mute" Similar to the Germanic root "Walla", which can be found in Wales, Waloons, Walachia.
Yeah, it means something like "mute" or "not of the speech". Since Slavic languages are similar and broadly understandable to each other, Germans were the first people Slavs met who spoke some gibberish. :P
Interestingly it would seem your word for Italy has the same Germanic root found in Wales and Walloonia.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:17:33 PM
24 and under. 25 seems to be the age in which the fucknuts snap out of their stupid shit, buckle down and grow the fuck up.
Are there really that many 24 year old veterans?
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2012, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:17:33 PM
24 and under. 25 seems to be the age in which the fucknuts snap out of their stupid shit, buckle down and grow the fuck up.
Are there really that many 24 year old veterans?
I think there is a 3 year hitch for the Navy. Or was. Point is, Vets get a pass in my book. Unless I think you dropped a carcass down a well somewhere.
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2012, 09:51:09 AM
Granted we have pretty bad youth unemployment in the US as well but here the freaking Baby Boomers seem determined to work until they drop over dead.
Not me! I'm going to retire as soon as I can! :cool:
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 04:15:57 PM
And because of the crisis, from 2008 firms almost stopped hiring new people, which result in the growing unemployment. More worrisome, even during the temporary pick up of 2011, firms would prefer to hire fresh graduates than people who graduated in, say, 2008 and haven't worked since then - now that 2012 looks a bit bleaker again, they stopped hiring again. So you are going eventually to end up with this "lost generation" of people who have not worked since 2008 or so - I wonder how the societies are going to deal with this problem eventually.
They were saying that exact same thing in Canada in around '92, '93. Everyone managed to find jobs eventually.
Sample bias. A lot of them probably just died.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
Any cv suggesting any links to the military, guns, and the like lands in the dust bin, whenever I'm doing recruitment.
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 04:15:57 PM
And because of the crisis, from 2008 firms almost stopped hiring new people, which result in the growing unemployment. More worrisome, even during the temporary pick up of 2011, firms would prefer to hire fresh graduates than people who graduated in, say, 2008 and haven't worked since then - now that 2012 looks a bit bleaker again, they stopped hiring again. So you are going eventually to end up with this "lost generation" of people who have not worked since 2008 or so - I wonder how the societies are going to deal with this problem eventually.
They were saying that exact same thing in Canada in around '92, '93. Everyone managed to find jobs eventually.
I don't know about that. There are two very scary things about this crisis: first, it's been far longer than the 93 crisis and doesn't seem it is going to get better at all anytime soon. In fact we're going straight down again. Second, in this country it comes right after a housing bubble during which many young men were encouraged to drop out from school by the inflated salaries in construction. So we have lots of <30 yo kids with no useful schooling or experience. Where are they going to find a job, especially when they are competing with over 5 million immigrants?
Quote from: Iormlund on February 01, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 04:15:57 PM
And because of the crisis, from 2008 firms almost stopped hiring new people, which result in the growing unemployment. More worrisome, even during the temporary pick up of 2011, firms would prefer to hire fresh graduates than people who graduated in, say, 2008 and haven't worked since then - now that 2012 looks a bit bleaker again, they stopped hiring again. So you are going eventually to end up with this "lost generation" of people who have not worked since 2008 or so - I wonder how the societies are going to deal with this problem eventually.
They were saying that exact same thing in Canada in around '92, '93. Everyone managed to find jobs eventually.
I don't know about that. There are two very scary things about this crisis: first, it's been far longer than the 93 crisis and doesn't seem it is going to get better at all anytime soon. In fact we're going straight down again. Second, in this country it comes right after a housing bubble during which many young men were encouraged to drop out from school by the inflated salaries in construction. So we have lots of <30 yo kids with no useful schooling or experience. Where are they going to find a job, especially when they are competing with over 5 million immigrants?
I don't know to what extent this is different from previous recessions, but there is a rather consistent theme to this one that gets repeated, in different variations, in most places: young people were told they need to do XYZ by older people and this prove to be wrong and now they are getting told it was their (wrong) choice to do XYZ so they have noone but themselves to blame.
So there is a distinct intra-generational conflict in this one and I wonder how this will play out.
I'm pretty sure most older people told them to study. But the chance of making twice as much as university graduate is hard to pass up for a 16yo.
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
Any cv suggesting any links to the military, guns, and the like lands in the dust bin, whenever I'm doing recruitment.
Don't they have employment laws in Poland? Doing something like this in US is illegal and could land the employer in trouble.
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:01:02 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
Any cv suggesting any links to the military, guns, and the like lands in the dust bin, whenever I'm doing recruitment.
Don't they have employment laws in Poland? Doing something like this in US is illegal and could land the employer in trouble.
First of all, lawyers are employed on consultancy contracts, not on employment ones. Moreover, I fail to see how this would be illegal - people write these cvs for a reason - to give an employer an idea about the kind of a person they are. People with interest in guns etc. are nuts and troublemakers. How the fuck did you not comment in any way on what Ed Anger said - that he wouldn't hire young people unless they were veterans - and this is something you object to?
You said that you automatically toss the resumes of people with military service record. That's a clear-cut violation of the federal law concerning employment discrimination in US.
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
You said that you automatically toss the resumes of people with military service record. That's a clear-cut violation of the federal law concerning employment discrimination in US.
I repeat - how that differs from what EdAnger said? Seriously, go fuck yourself. I was responding in kind to an equally ridiculous statement from EdAnger - I am not going now to explain myself to some idiot who can't take a joke.
Unless you are implying that you can say you only hire people with military service record, but you cannot say that you only hire people without military service record - in which case your law is more fucked up than I thought it was.
I would never hire a homo, nor allow one to be hired by a subordinate. They are incapable of thinking or working.
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
You said that you automatically toss the resumes of people with military service record. That's a clear-cut violation of the federal law concerning employment discrimination in US.
I repeat - how that differs from what EdAnger said? Seriously, go fuck yourself. I was responding in kind to an equally ridiculous statement from EdAnger - I am not going now to explain myself to some idiot who can't take a joke.
Ed Anger discriminated for veterans, not against them. And age discrimination is illegal only on the old side. That's the difference.
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
You said that you automatically toss the resumes of people with military service record. That's a clear-cut violation of the federal law concerning employment discrimination in US.
I repeat - how that differs from what EdAnger said? Seriously, go fuck yourself. I was responding in kind to an equally ridiculous statement from EdAnger - I am not going now to explain myself to some idiot who can't take a joke.
Ed Anger discriminated for veterans, not against them. And age discrimination is illegal only on the old side. That's the difference.
This is discrimination either way. As I said, your law is fucked up if it allows to discriminate by refusing to hire people without military service record (in genera - I am not talking about jobs where this might be relevant, such as security guards).
Besides, if you have 100 cvs and are supposed to pick 5 people to invite for an interview, you want to pick creme de la creme. People who do military service usually are people with some fucked up priorities and no clear path ahead of them (if they subsequently seek a job of a lawyer) so you discard such losers just as you would discard someone who spent 5 years backpacking in Tibet.
Quote from: Neil on February 01, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
I would never hire a homo, nor allow one to be hired by a subordinate. They are incapable of thinking or working.
Thankfully you are not in any position to decide either way.
I caused a minor shitstorm.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2Dvit.gif&hash=74263e89c75a0e92b670446a4cedc89387662149)
QuoteThat's largely responsible but not the only reason. For example in my line of work people are more frequently hired on the basis of consultancy agreements (that are easier to terminate) but still you see the same phenomenon - that's because it pays off more for firms to keep experienced, older workers than to hire and train new people.
And because of the crisis, from 2008 firms almost stopped hiring new people, which result in the growing unemployment. More worrisome, even during the temporary pick up of 2011, firms would prefer to hire fresh graduates than people who graduated in, say, 2008 and haven't worked since then - now that 2012 looks a bit bleaker again, they stopped hiring again. So you are going eventually to end up with this "lost generation" of people who have not worked since 2008 or so - I wonder how the societies are going to deal with this problem eventually. @/quote]
Exactly the problem Japan has been having over the past 2 decades. Its a major issue here about graduates missing their train and being stuck in a life of
temporary employment, often well below their skill level.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 01, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Its those inflexible labour markets that you keep on hearing about in action. The converse is that surprisingly few established workers have lost their jobs (speaking for the UK, there are probably as many stories as countries).
The problem for an unemployed young person in the UK is how to keep busy during the downturn so that a life of unemployment is avoided. Tyr going off to Japan is part of that tradition, during the early 80s many of my friends taught English in the Sudan, kids have it easy these days :P
The Sudan? :blink:
Wow.
That is...mental.
I wonder, did these friends manage to integrate back into polite society or were they doomed to be forever teachers?
Though yes, I have it too easy, Japan has been tamed and there's an established pattern of foreign teachers here. Wish I'd came in the 80s instead when the land was still new (and exciting).
I think I'm following more in the Auf Wiedershen tradition myself :geordie:
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:16:20 PM
Quote from: Neil on February 01, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
I would never hire a homo, nor allow one to be hired by a subordinate. They are incapable of thinking or working.
Thankfully you are not in any position to decide either way.
How is that different from throwing out the ex-military and "gun people"? :wacko:
And for Mart, We get tax credits for hiring vets.
QuoteCompanies can claim a credit against taxes owed of as much as $5,600 for hiring veterans, and as much as $9,600 for hiring veterans with service-connected disabilities, if the veteran has been looking for work for six months or longer.
The new law also provides as much as $2,400 for hiring a veteran who has been looking for work for one to six months.
Plus, you get some logistic REMF that knows his/her shit, and they make wonderful SCM consultants for military work.
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
Besides, if you have 100 cvs and are supposed to pick 5 people to invite for an interview, you want to pick creme de la creme. People who do military service usually are people with some fucked up priorities and no clear path ahead of them (if they subsequently seek a job of a lawyer) so you discard such losers just as you would discard someone who spent 5 years backpacking in Tibet.
what would be the difference between a military lawyer with 5 years or experience and a district attorney/crown prosecutor with 5 years of experience, all other things being equal? Why is working for one branch of the government reprehensible, gets you qualified as a loser but not the other one?
Would it be better to work 5 years for a private firm as low ranking lawyer and spending most of your paycheck on drugs and booze while you figure out your priorities in life?
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 05:51:18 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 01, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 01, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 04:15:57 PM
And because of the crisis, from 2008 firms almost stopped hiring new people, which result in the growing unemployment. More worrisome, even during the temporary pick up of 2011, firms would prefer to hire fresh graduates than people who graduated in, say, 2008 and haven't worked since then - now that 2012 looks a bit bleaker again, they stopped hiring again. So you are going eventually to end up with this "lost generation" of people who have not worked since 2008 or so - I wonder how the societies are going to deal with this problem eventually.
They were saying that exact same thing in Canada in around '92, '93. Everyone managed to find jobs eventually.
I don't know about that. There are two very scary things about this crisis: first, it's been far longer than the 93 crisis and doesn't seem it is going to get better at all anytime soon. In fact we're going straight down again. Second, in this country it comes right after a housing bubble during which many young men were encouraged to drop out from school by the inflated salaries in construction. So we have lots of <30 yo kids with no useful schooling or experience. Where are they going to find a job, especially when they are competing with over 5 million immigrants?
I don't know to what extent this is different from previous recessions, but there is a rather consistent theme to this one that gets repeated, in different variations, in most places: young people were told they need to do XYZ by older people and this prove to be wrong and now they are getting told it was their (wrong) choice to do XYZ so they have noone but themselves to blame.
So there is a distinct intra-generational conflict in this one and I wonder how this will play out.
The solution is for the younger generation to rise up against the older generation. Once everyone over 40 or so has forcibly been retired, there will be plenty of job opportunities for younger people. :)
Retired like not working, or retired like in Blade Runner?
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
This is discrimination either way. As I said, your law is fucked up if it allows to discriminate by refusing to hire people without military service record (in genera - I am not talking about jobs where this might be relevant, such as security guards).
I wouldn't hire ex-military to be a security guard, especially Army/Marines....those fuckers take anything that isn't nailed down.
Our classroom's dry-erase markers and printer paper must be defended to the death. :mad:
@Tyr - when they got back there was a substantial, but short-lived, boom. Suddenly they were employable and converted themselves into IT people, accountants, a graphic designer and, of course, teachers. Its all supply and demand and most of them had pretty good degrees from good universities. But the best thing is to enter the job market at the right time, which is not really a matter of choice :(
This current depression is turning into the worst one I have seen, worse than the 1980s I think. The only redeeming feature is that we are much richer than those days so there is less absolute destitution.
Quote from: Ideologue on February 02, 2012, 01:07:21 AM
Retired like not working, or retired like in Blade Runner?
The latter saves money. We'll charge them for the bullet.
The HK job market is no where near as bad, but we still have a lot of problems. University graduates are almost guranteed to have jobs. The problem is that a lot of those jobs are shitty ones, and that the job market for high school graduates is even worse. You either get a professional/office position, or you get a fast food/restaurant/cleansing/sales/security job. There is not much in between. You either make it or you are doomed.
Right now, the job market for the young people is so bad, university graduates pick up trainee or stagiare jobs that either don't pay at all or pay very little (say, the equivalent of 450 euro per month, which in a city like Warsaw may not be enough to even rent you a studio flat) and are often stuck in them for months on end. By comparison, when I was entering the job market in 1999, I was offered the same kind of job after one month of "summer student programme" which paid over 1000 euro per month.
And if you consider the inflation and growing costs of living in Warsaw, the gulf is even bigger. Frankly, I don't know how the young people manage these days.
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
Any cv suggesting any links to the military, guns, and the like lands in the dust bin, whenever I'm doing recruitment.
Yet you used to moan about unruly and dumb servants of yours at the office. I think some young people who come straight from college or high school just fail to quickly adopt to the fact that they are in a different model at the workplace - it is not a cycle of pretending to be listening then reciting something on paper and getting the reward for it. Rather, some effort, individual problem-solving, and responsibility-taking is expected.
At least military service washes the school-mindset out of everyone.
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
Right now, the job market for the young people is so bad, university graduates pick up trainee or stagiare jobs that either don't pay at all or pay very little (say, the equivalent of 450 euro per month, which in a city like Warsaw may not be enough to even rent you a studio flat) and are often stuck in them for months on end. By comparison, when I was entering the job market in 1999, I was offered the same kind of job after one month of "summer student programme" which paid over 1000 euro per month.
And if you consider the inflation and growing costs of living in Warsaw, the gulf is even bigger. Frankly, I don't know how the young people manage these days.
Answer: They don't.
I'd have loved to have done an internship, it would really have helped me get a foot on the ladder. I couldn't afford it though. Such things are only for the rich/those lucky enough to have somewhere they can stay for free in big cities.
I think the biggest problem is not just that they make so little. Their concern is that they don't see any hope for the future. So many semi-skilled or mid level management jobs are gone or outsourced. The older generation keep lying to them to "start from the bottom". But they soon find out that they are stuck at the bottom forever. Those who miss the train don't have any second chance.
And young people in HK usually live with their parents.
In Sweden, if you get a good degree you get a decent job. Good degrees are free. Nuff said.
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
so you discard such losers just as you would discard someone who spent 5 years backpacking in Tibet.
I finally agree with you on some aspect of this discussion. :hug:
Hippie? GET. OUT.
Quote from: Tamas on February 02, 2012, 03:09:45 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
I don't hire young people. Unless they are veterans.
Any cv suggesting any links to the military, guns, and the like lands in the dust bin, whenever I'm doing recruitment.
Yet you used to moan about unruly and dumb servants of yours at the office. I think some young people who come straight from college or high school just fail to quickly adopt to the fact that they are in a different model at the workplace - it is not a cycle of pretending to be listening then reciting something on paper and getting the reward for it. Rather, some effort, individual problem-solving, and responsibility-taking is expected.
At least military service washes the school-mindset out of everyone.
Uhm, no. This job requires creative thinking. That's the last thing you'd learn in the military. Plus you are comparing pest and cholera here. Someone who wasted 9+ months of their life on doing military service is going to be inferior to someone who spent this time learning something useful (or even someone 9 months younger who applies for the trainee programme). Sure, if you are comparing that to someone who wasted this 9 months on partying then you are probably correct, but we are not talking about this level.
Again, I suppose your mileage may vary, depending on the line of work. Lawyers recruited for my firm are supposed to be the creme de la creme, the best of the best the market has to offer - there is a reason why we almost always limit ourselves to recruiting people just from 2 or 3 universities in the country. We are not talking about a position where a pot smoking hippie may apply or be seriously considered (and where, therefore, someone with military training could be considered an improvement). The type of people who would get a military training in this country are below our notice to begin with.
And incidentally, the quality of the recruits has improved lately - people seem much more keen to work hard than 4 years ago or so - so at least the crisis has been good for one thing.
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2012, 06:10:45 AM
Lawyers recruited for my firm are supposed to be the creme de la creme, the best of the best the market has to offer
WTF
Expect any violent social unrest in Europe and America this year?
Quote from: The Brain on February 02, 2012, 06:15:21 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2012, 06:10:45 AM
Lawyers recruited for my firm are supposed to be the creme de la creme, the best of the best the market has to offer
WTF
:XD:
He needs somebody to cover his ass as far as the actual legal work goes.
Apparently Mart is an exceptional lawyer. :)
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 01, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Its those inflexible labour markets that you keep on hearing about in action. The converse is that surprisingly few established workers have lost their jobs (speaking for the UK, there are probably as many stories as countries).hat tradition, during the early 80s many of my friends taught English in the Sudan, kids have it easy these days :P
Although the other side of this has been that we've just turned more German than American. People in the UK haven't been fired but the number of people who've moved on to part-time contracts, or flexible working is very high. That is, I think, a generally positive flexibility in the labour market.
I'd add that in my anecdotal experience the problems for youth employment here are internships and free-lance contracts.
Internships without pay are a real curse. I've a friend whose company employs three interns (with lunch expenses!) to do basic jobs for different teams. Rotating interns every three months is cheaper than employing a full time admin assistant even though, though the interns don't know this, there's no hope of a job at the end of it. As Tyr says it's also hugely anti-meritocratic. You get no benefits while you're interning so unless you're rich or live in London it's very, very difficult to get started and companies expect you to have at least one or two internships before they hire you.
The free-lance thing is that loads of my friends don't work for their companies. The company HR departments basically help them set up as businesses, so they're self-employed, free-lancing, entry level 'consultants'. It's not entirely because of labour inflexibility in terms of firing. In this country we've got relatively liberal employment laws. The big issues from what I can gather are that companies don't want new members of corporate pension schemes (the BBC are the worst at this, apparently they barely ever actually hire anyone because their private pension scheme is so good, many people working is on a rolling two-year project-based contract as a consultant). The only flexibility issue, here at least, is that companies don't have to pay consultants for holidays or bank holidays. They don't even have to give holidays.
I worry more about what we'll look like in twenty years when the chinless wonders who can afford to do multiple internships are running everything :bleeding:
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
Right now, the job market for the young people is so bad, university graduates pick up trainee or stagiare jobs that either don't pay at all or pay very little (say, the equivalent of 450 euro per month, which in a city like Warsaw may not be enough to even rent you a studio flat) and are often stuck in them for months on end.
Right now? That has been the norm in Spain for at least a decade or so. I interned in Madrid back in 2004-05 for around 600 € per month and I was privileged because I was getting payed at all.
How common are office temps in Yuroland?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:03:23 PM
How common are office temps in Yuroland?
Pretty common. I was able to move back into London on a temping job. But it's not terribly easy for graduates or young people in general to get into that either. They've, mostly, little to no office work experience and there's loads of experienced admin assistants, office managers and the like who are looking for work and temping.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:03:23 PM
How common are office temps in Yuroland?
What's an office temp?
In case anyone's interested about the situation in Spain, here's a graph regarding number of employed people from 2005 until 2011 divided on educational level:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropbox.com%2Fu%2F2021568%2Foccupadosniveleduc.jpg&hash=d314c367a3c0d5bb85e3e20a2d7e1aa43feeff28)
The blue line is for people with only elementary education, the red one for secondary education and the green one for tertiary education, grouping together those with uni degrees and advanced technical education.
It's pretty clear when the housing bubble exploded and who are the ones that got the ax after that.
Quote from: The Larch on February 02, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
What's an office temp?
Say someone goes on vacation for a month and you need someone to answer phones, or you have a big project and you need a bunch of people to sort through files. Then your company calls up a temp agency which has a stable of people.
Or even longer term, a company might go through a temp agency so they can avoid paying benefits.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 02, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
What's an office temp?
Say someone goes on vacation for a month and you need someone to answer phones, or you have a big project and you need a bunch of people to sort through files. Then your company calls up a temp agency which has a stable of people.
Or even longer term, a company might go through a temp agency so they can avoid paying benefits.
Understood and very common, but mostly for low level jobs only.
@Sheilbh - I'd be tempted to make it a requirement by law that interns are paid at least the minimum wage.
Concerning the rolling over of contracts, I'm fairly sure that there has been recent legislation which greatly shortens the time before a temp is entitled to the full set of benefits, ah.........here we are :
http://www.michaelpage.co.uk/content/18084/awr.html
No doubt there are loopholes for unscrupulous employers, but then, the BBC should not be an unscrupulous employer :mad:
Heh, looks like there are loads of ways of getting around the new rules.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 02, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
@Sheilbh - I'd be tempted to make it a requirement by law that interns are paid at least the minimum wage.
I think it needs to happen. Even if it doesn't immediately help more people being in work it does widen the gene-pool of interns which would be a good thing. I think it would also cause companies to consider whether hiring someone would be better than simply having several unpaid interns.
QuoteConcerning the rolling over of contracts, I'm fairly sure that there has been recent legislation which greatly shortens the time before a temp is entitled to the full set of benefits, ah.........here we are :
I'd heard of that actually, it's a good step as far as it goes. Hopefully it'll have an effect.
But I think the UK generally does have a flexible labour market where it is easy to fire people. I don't know that a huge number of supply-side reforms, as Tory MPs are arguing for, would actually help that much. The only ones I think could have an impact would be to regionalise the minimum wage and move to regional pay scales in the public sector rather than the national ones because I do think the public sector is crowding out the private in some parts of the country.
The real issues aren't easy to resolve. There's no useful spending by the state like the Future Jobs Fund, or much capital investment - both of which are still possible even with austerity - and there's no export-led recovery because our biggest export markets are fucked. In addition I think our austerity measures have been more unhelpful than they had to be. I think deeper spending cuts would have been better than the VAT rise for example.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2012, 12:59:02 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on February 02, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
@Sheilbh - I'd be tempted to make it a requirement by law that interns are paid at least the minimum wage.
I think it needs to happen. Even if it doesn't immediately help more people being in work it does widen the gene-pool of interns which would be a good thing. I think it would also cause companies to consider whether hiring someone would be better than simply having several unpaid interns.
Yeah I think that makes sense as well. After all even if you are a student intern, that means you have to split time between school, an actual job that supports your college education/living accommodations and then your free internship to build your resume. Quite awful.
And then even more awful when you have a college degree and still have to take an unpaid position!
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:03:23 PM
How common are office temps in Yuroland?
Only 7% of the contracts signed last month were of indefinite nature.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 02, 2012, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:03:23 PM
How common are office temps in Yuroland?
Only 7% of the contracts signed last month were of indefinite nature.
He means "ETTs", not temporary contracts.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:03:23 PM
How common are office temps in Yuroland?
The temp agency I worked for in Phila. was based in Zurich. :swiss:
Quote@Sheilbh - I'd be tempted to make it a requirement by law that interns are paid at least the minimum wage.
That would be good. Or perhaps a bit lower even so there is some incentive for people to hire interns but interns can still survive.
At the very least you shouldn't have your benefits cut off if you actually get up off your arse and doing something about trying to secure a job. That is just madness.
"Survive"?
Ha ha, silly Euro, you don't know what minimum wage is in America, do you?
Or what the word minimum means.
To both of the above: :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on February 02, 2012, 06:10:45 AM
Uhm, no. This job requires creative thinking. That's the last thing you'd learn in the military. Plus you are comparing pest and cholera here. Someone who wasted 9+ months of their life on doing military service is going to be inferior to someone who spent this time learning something useful (or even someone 9 months younger who applies for the trainee programme). Sure, if you are comparing that to someone who wasted this 9 months on partying then you are probably correct, but we are not talking about this level.
Again, I suppose your mileage may vary, depending on the line of work. Lawyers recruited for my firm are supposed to be the creme de la creme, the best of the best the market has to offer - there is a reason why we almost always limit ourselves to recruiting people just from 2 or 3 universities in the country. We are not talking about a position where a pot smoking hippie may apply or be seriously considered (and where, therefore, someone with military training could be considered an improvement). The type of people who would get a military training in this country are below our notice to begin with.
And incidentally, the quality of the recruits has improved lately - people seem much more keen to work hard than 4 years ago or so - so at least the crisis has been good for one thing.
Presumably your law firm is hiring lawyers, so we're not talking about former infantry men but people who were military lawyers. What's wrong with them?
Quote from: Tyr on February 02, 2012, 07:16:36 PM
To both of the above: :huh:
7 bucks and change an hour* ain't worth shit.
*may be more in some states.
I think 30 some states have a minwage higher than federal.
Holy Crap, Ohio's is 7.70. Truly, they live like kings. No wonder I get such good service at Taco Bell.
South Carolina's state motto: "If we could pay you less, we would."
$7 doesn`t sound so bad compared to what we have in the UK. Less in terms of exchange rates but the way things tend to work is if something costs a pound in Britain it costs a dollar in the US.
I have heard though that a lot in the US don't get that due to the silly tipping system.
I made $15/hr when I was a tipped employee.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 02, 2012, 12:16:01 PM
Say someone goes on vacation for a month and you need someone to answer phones, or you have a big project and you need a bunch of people to sort through files. Then your company calls up a temp agency which has a stable of people.
My company is very good at hiring hot chick temps for projects like that, which is odd since the hiring managers are inevitably women.
Quote from: Tyr on February 02, 2012, 07:16:36 PM
To both of the above: :huh:
I think Ide doesn't quite know what 'survive' means and if he doesn't think he can do that on minimum wage, well...
Quote from: Tyr on February 02, 2012, 07:30:54 PM
I have heard though that a lot in the US don't get that due to the silly tipping system.
Their wages are shit, true (something like $2.25/hour), but tipped employees traditionally make quite a bit more. I have a few friends that work as waiters at decent restaurants that are clearing $40k+/year. Not living high on the hog, but it's a solid middle-class living.
I wonder what Ide thinks about the issue.
Ide thinks the minimum wage should be ~$15/hour.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 02, 2012, 07:23:53 PM
Holy Crap, Ohio's is 7.70. Truly, they live like kings. No wonder I get such good service at Taco Bell.
@Yi - Also cities can do stuff too. SF is now like 10.25 or something!
Quote from: Habbaku on February 02, 2012, 09:53:38 PM
Ide thinks the minimum wage should be ~$15/hour.
And $10 of that should be taxed to pay for people to not do robot work.
Quote from: Maximus on February 02, 2012, 11:58:59 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on February 02, 2012, 09:53:38 PM
Ide thinks the minimum wage should be ~$15/hour.
And $10 of that should be taxed to pay for people to not do robot work.
I don't know what that means.
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:34:30 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 01, 2012, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 01, 2012, 04:17:33 PM
24 and under. 25 seems to be the age in which the fucknuts snap out of their stupid shit, buckle down and grow the fuck up.
Are there really that many 24 year old veterans?
I think there is a 3 year hitch for the Navy. Or was. Point is, Vets get a pass in my book. Unless I think you dropped a carcass down a well somewhere.
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: Martinus on February 01, 2012, 06:08:02 PM
Quote from: DGuller on February 01, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
You said that you automatically toss the resumes of people with military service record. That's a clear-cut violation of the federal law concerning employment discrimination in US.
I repeat - how that differs from what EdAnger said? Seriously, go fuck yourself. I was responding in kind to an equally ridiculous statement from EdAnger - I am not going now to explain myself to some idiot who can't take a joke.
Ed Anger discriminated for veterans, not against them. And age discrimination is illegal only on the old side. That's the difference.
This is discrimination either way. As I said, your law is fucked up if it allows to discriminate by refusing to hire people without military service record (in genera - I am not talking about jobs where this might be relevant, such as security guards).
Besides, if you have 100 cvs and are supposed to pick 5 people to invite for an interview, you want to pick creme de la creme. People who do military service usually are people with some fucked up priorities and no clear path ahead of them (if they subsequently seek a job of a lawyer) so you discard such losers just as you would discard someone who spent 5 years backpacking in Tibet.
What?
I want Martinus in my hands.
Ewwww :x
Isn't the employee-side of the internship deal is that while getting some income you also gain some semblence of work experience, so you don't hit the market with a fancy-sounding degree but not being able to navigate the most basic office tasks/enviroment?
Quote from: Siege on February 03, 2012, 02:02:34 AM
I want Martinus in my hands.
Keep your dirty talk to pms, plz.
For Siege every day is pms day.
You really like that pun, don't you.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 02, 2012, 07:19:36 PM
Presumably your law firm is hiring lawyers, so we're not talking about former infantry men but people who were military lawyers. What's wrong with them?
They enlisted instead of joining a top firm after getting their degree?
Quote from: Iormlund on February 01, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
There are two very scary things about this crisis: first, it's been far longer than the 93 crisis and doesn't seem it is going to get better at all anytime soon.
Yep. It is starting to reach Great and Long Depression sort of dimensions. It really all depends on Europe now everybody is watching you dudes with baited breath to see if you are going to tank the whole world economy. Please don't.
That came out wrong, didn't it?
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2012, 01:27:14 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 01, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
There are two very scary things about this crisis: first, it's been far longer than the 93 crisis and doesn't seem it is going to get better at all anytime soon.
Yep. It is starting to reach Great and Long Depression sort of dimensions. It really all depends on Europe now everybody is watching you dudes with baited breath to see if you are going to tank the whole world economy. Please don't.
I don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 01:51:07 PM
I don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
I heard she went begging money from the Chinese this week. It says alot about how desperate we all are that the Chinese just might start throwing money at the problem.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2012, 11:59:36 AM
Rotating interns every three months is cheaper than employing a full time admin assistant even though, though the interns don't know this, there's no hope of a job at the end of it.
Ok, shit like this should be illegal and to the point of such thing, if proven, should be considered a criminal fraud punishable with prison.
It's one thing to have a low pay trial scheme for prospective hirees, and another to have this.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 01:51:07 PM
I don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
I think she's mired in the numbers: PIIGS borrowing needs and non-PIIGS lending ability.
Quote from: Tamas on February 03, 2012, 02:53:39 AM
Isn't the employee-side of the internship deal is that while getting some income you also gain some semblence of work experience, so you don't hit the market with a fancy-sounding degree but not being able to navigate the most basic office tasks/enviroment?
No.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 01:51:07 PMI don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
What could she do to save the day?
invade poland.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsi.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FEI-BQ977_EUECON_G_20120201114504.jpg&hash=c1ebafeae09feeb614cbe6ebb1612418a864881e)
QuoteLONDON—A rebound in German manufacturing helped slow a six-month-long contraction in euro-zone factory activity in January, giving the latest sign the region may escape a severe downturn in the first quarter.
[...]
While a few countries, like Germany and Austria, are showing signs of recovery, others continue to face a bleak outlook—especially those at the heart of the debt crisis.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204652904577196384128312336.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2012, 02:16:22 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 01:51:07 PM
I don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
I think she's mired in the numbers: PIIGS borrowing needs and non-PIIGS lending ability.
The you too are mired along with her.
Quote from: Martinus on February 03, 2012, 02:13:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 02, 2012, 11:59:36 AM
Rotating interns every three months is cheaper than employing a full time admin assistant even though, though the interns don't know this, there's no hope of a job at the end of it.
Ok, shit like this should be illegal and to the point of such thing, if proven, should be considered a criminal fraud punishable with prison.
It's one thing to have a low pay trial scheme for prospective hirees, and another to have this.
That has been the norm in many businesses over here since before I entered the job market.
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2012, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 01:51:07 PMI don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
What could she do to save the day?
At this point? Eurobonds will probably fall short on their own. She needs to start by unleashing the ECB.
Quote from: Zanza on February 03, 2012, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 01:51:07 PMI don't think there's much to hope on that front. Only Merkel can save the day, but she's mired in the lazy PIGS fallacy.
What could she do to save the day?
I think Eurobonds, more unconventional monetary policy and, as Monti's asked for, demand side reforms from Germany would help. Help the parts of Europe to grow, they are cutting budgets, raising taxes, enacting structural reforms within a comparatively constrained monetary environment.
Quote from: Valmy on February 03, 2012, 01:52:15 PM
I heard she went begging money from the Chinese this week. It says alot about how desperate we all are that the Chinese just might start throwing money at the problem.
Yeah. I remember when the Chinese were going to buy into the EFSF which would somehow transform the rather paltry contribution of Eurozone nations into trillions. If you're not willing to save your own currency it's tough to expect the Chinese to do it. They weren't interested then and, it seems to me, made polite sounding noises this time round.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2012, 05:58:54 PMI think Eurobonds
I somehow doubt it would help if she signed up for those and then the Constitutional Court would say that Germany may not participate. Open-ended, unlimited guarantees were ruled out in their last decision on the ESM or EFSF (forgot which).
Quotemore unconventional monetary policy
May be news to you, but Merkel isn't actually making monetary policy. That's the ECB's task. Blaming Merkel for their policy is a bit simple. The ECB by itself is very much wedded to orthodox monetary policy.
Quoteas Monti's asked for, demand side reforms from Germany would help.
People aren't stupid. Demand side reforms such as direct stimulus or indirect measures like tax cuts won't work because people know they'll have to eventually pay for that. We have heard years about how the state won't be able to take care of our pensions anymore and how the health system is overburdened etc. If you cut taxes now, a considerable amount of that will go for savings. In the end, the only thing that can make people confident in the future is taking their fear. Lower unemployment already happens here, solid state finances that suggest that the state will still be able to take care of your basic needs in the future helps too.
QuoteHelp the parts of Europe to grow, they are cutting budgets, raising taxes, enacting structural reforms within a comparatively constrained monetary environment.
So we are back to monetary policy, which Merkel can't set?
If Germany's constitution is such an impassable obstacle to save the € you should just be honest about it and leave the EZ. Maybe the rest of us could work it out.
I thought Germany was pretty open and honest about not participating in Eurobonds.
As far as leaving the Eurozone is concerned, that's hardly in our interest.
How about the rest of you start without us on Eurobonds? The last EU summit set a precedent regarding treaties in which not all members participate. The supposed advantages of debt-pooling should work even without Germany.
Quote from: Zanza on February 04, 2012, 05:05:44 AM
I somehow doubt it would help if she signed up for those and then the Constitutional Court would say that Germany may not participate. Open-ended, unlimited guarantees were ruled out in their last decision on the ESM or EFSF (forgot which).
Aside from the name I can't remember there being a significant difference in what I read between Juncker's Eurobonds proposal (60% of national debt mutualised, all above that national) and the 'stability bonds' Germany's economic wise men proposed last year. I assumed the latter would be constitutionally legit.
But I'm not as strident as Iorm but the German constitution and Constitutional Court do seem difficult to reconcile with further integration. That's my shallow understanding of their rulings on Lisbon and the Eurozone situation. That and they're always held up by Eurosceptics in this country as an example of a court willing to stand up for national law in the face of the EUSSR :lol:
QuoteMay be news to you, but Merkel isn't actually making monetary policy. That's the ECB's task. Blaming Merkel for their policy is a bit simple. The ECB by itself is very much wedded to orthodox monetary policy.
The ECB's the most legally independent central bank in the world, but I think over the past two years has been the most dirtily political and understandably so. But I think the very vocal German opposition to bond purchases, such as the President suggesting they may be illegal and the Bundesbank's opposition, make them very difficult for the ECB to even consider. Though you're right there's some attachment to that within the ECB.
QuoteSo we are back to monetary policy, which Merkel can't set?
No. I think we could do more to enhance the single market. I believe Monti suggested a number of sectors of the economy that should be liberalised in Germany to give Italian companies a chance. Monti and Lagarde have both asked Germany as an economy that's doing well to do more to stimulate demand while the other countries in Europe are going through fiscal austerity in a tight monetary space that seems reasonable. I'm not sure what their exact suggestions are but the idea makes sense.
But the problem is if Monti and Rajoy fails because they've not had sufficient support from the rest of the Eurozone, if they've got clean hands but get treated just a bit better than Silvio. Another worry is if Sarko comes third behind Le Pen, which is currently where he's polling. I think in the current context there'll be a grass-roots nationalist response to this crisis.
As Monti's pointed out there's more Euroscepticism in Italy now and it's growing week-by-week, his phrase is that this 'impatience-cum-hostility to the EU, ECB and Germany is mounting'. Luckily Berlusconi's discredited or I imagine he'd take that mantle. I think it's a threat that Orban stops being a Hungarian exception and you actually see his style of nationalism spreading. Fischer had a good line about the possibility that the EU could disintegrate from the bottom up if there's no change in policy.
QuoteHow about the rest of you start without us on Eurobonds? The last EU summit set a precedent regarding treaties in which not all members participate. The supposed advantages of debt-pooling should work even without Germany.
Would Germany really allow EU institutions like the ECB to go ahead with that?
Quote from: Zanza on February 04, 2012, 08:57:26 AM
I thought Germany was pretty open and honest about not participating in Eurobonds.
As far as leaving the Eurozone is concerned, that's hardly in our interest.
How about the rest of you start without us on Eurobonds? The last EU summit set a precedent regarding treaties in which not all members participate. The supposed advantages of debt-pooling should work even without Germany.
Germany is at the core of the problem, so leaving it aside solves nothing. It restrains the ECB, drives the value of the € upward, serves as a safe haven for capital flight and is at the center of EZ trade imbalances. There is no real solution to the crisis that keeps the status quo regarding Germany. Unless you consider global recession a solution, as Merkel seems to do.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2012, 09:19:03 AMThe ECB's the most legally independent central bank in the world, but I think over the past two years has been the most dirtily political and understandably so. But I think the very vocal German opposition to bond purchases, such as the President suggesting they may be illegal and the Bundesbank's opposition, make them very difficult for the ECB to even consider. Though you're right there's some attachment to that within the ECB.
Maybe it was just not reported in the media I read, but I have not heard anybody from Spain or wherever publicly suggesting that we should change the EU treaty that explicitely forbids the ECB buying bonds. Without such a treaty change, the ECB bankers would overstep their mandate. Did Zapatero or Rajoy bring that to the table in any of the EU summits? Especially when everybody criticizes Merkel for her hesistant actions, you would really expect some more bold measures proposed by other governments.
QuoteNo. I think we could do more to enhance the single market. I believe Monti suggested a number of sectors of the economy that should be liberalised in Germany to give Italian companies a chance.
His proposal regarding service market liberalization. Yes, I think we should do that and I don't understand why Merkel doesn't support that. That's a fair point.
QuoteMonti and Lagarde have both asked Germany as an economy that's doing well to do more to stimulate demand while the other countries in Europe are going through fiscal austerity in a tight monetary space that seems reasonable. I'm not sure what their exact suggestions are but the idea makes sense.
I think no one, not even them, know what their exact suggestions are. That's the problem with "stimulating demand". Demand is not something a heavily indebted government can just create out of thin air.
QuoteBut the problem is if Monti and Rajoy fails because they've not had sufficient support from the rest of the Eurozone, if they've got clean hands but get treated just a bit better than Silvio. Another worry is if Sarko comes third behind Le Pen, which is currently where he's polling. I think in the current context there'll be a grass-roots nationalist response to this crisis.
As Monti's pointed out there's more Euroscepticism in Italy now and it's growing week-by-week, his phrase is that this 'impatience-cum-hostility to the EU, ECB and Germany is mounting'. Luckily Berlusconi's discredited or I imagine he'd take that mantle. I think it's a threat that Orban stops being a Hungarian exception and you actually see his style of nationalism spreading. Fischer had a good line about the possibility that the EU could disintegrate from the bottom up if there's no change in policy.
That's a possiblity. But if an open-ended, unlimited fiscal transfer or imperial administrators being sent from Brussels to right Greece's economy or the central bank losing its independence and mandate not to finance governments is what it takes to keep it together, I am not sure if that price isn't too high.
We have achieved a lot in Europe over the last half century, but it becomes more and more obvious that the people of Europe are not willing to go further on integration.
QuoteWould Germany really allow EU institutions like the ECB to go ahead with that?
What's the ECB's role in Eurobonds? I thought the idea was mutualizing government debt.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 09:42:27 AMGermany is at the core of the problem, so leaving it aside solves nothing. It restrains the ECB, drives the value of the € upward, serves as a safe haven for capital flight and is at the center of EZ trade imbalances. There is no real solution to the crisis that keeps the status quo regarding Germany. Unless you consider global recession a solution, as Merkel seems to do.
So what you say is that Germany signing up for Eurobonds wouldn't actually solve anything because it would still drive up the value of the Euro, would still be a safe haven, would still have trade imbalances.
Quote from: Zanza on February 04, 2012, 09:42:38 AM
Maybe it was just not reported in the media I read, but I have not heard anybody from Spain or wherever publicly suggesting that we should change the EU treaty that explicitely forbids the ECB buying bonds. Without such a treaty change, the ECB bankers would overstep their mandate. Did Zapatero or Rajoy bring that to the table in any of the EU summits? Especially when everybody criticizes Merkel for her hesistant actions, you would really expect some more bold measures proposed by other governments.
:lol:
Are you kidding? Our governments have been taking orders from Berlin for years. They'll say just what the are told to.
Germany, puppet master of Europe? I've missed that memo. :(
Quote from: Zanza on February 04, 2012, 09:45:36 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 09:42:27 AMGermany is at the core of the problem, so leaving it aside solves nothing. It restrains the ECB, drives the value of the € upward, serves as a safe haven for capital flight and is at the center of EZ trade imbalances. There is no real solution to the crisis that keeps the status quo regarding Germany. Unless you consider global recession a solution, as Merkel seems to do.
So what you say is that Germany signing up for Eurobonds wouldn't actually solve anything because it would still drive up the value of the Euro, would still be a safe haven, would still have trade imbalances.
Not exactly. It would be a necessarily part of the final solution, but it won't work on its own at this point. We need to get rid of the Bundesbank 2.0 as well. The only way to avoid constant deflation in much of Europe is for Germany to experience some of the inflation we've lived through this last decade, either by changing monetary policy or by the destruction of the EZ.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 09:47:35 AM:lol:
Are you kidding? Our governments have been taking orders from Berlin for years. They'll say just what the are told to.
A nice, convenient cop-out. That way you can blame everything on Berlin. Blaming problems on someone else is probably the only thing that all Europeans have in common.
Who mentioned 'everything' here? I thought we were talking about our late economic policy.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 10:01:11 AM
Who mentioned 'everything' here? I thought we were talking about our late economic policy.
Doesn't change my point.
Are you really saying that Merkel isn't dictating policy to PIIGS, seriously?
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 09:53:20 AMNot exactly. It would be a necessarily part of the final solution, but it won't work on its own at this point. We need to get rid of the Bundesbank 2.0 as well. The only way to avoid constant deflation in much of Europe is for Germany to experience some of the inflation we've lived through this last decade, either by changing monetary policy or by the destruction of the EZ.
The lowest inflation you ever had?
Yeah. So low that this flat tripled its value while salaries went up less than 40%.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 10:03:49 AM
Are you really saying that Merkel isn't dictating policy to PIIGS, seriously?
No, what I am saying is that Spain is a sovereign country and that you should really, really blame your own leaders first and foremost for all policies. It's even worse if you are right and they get orders from Berlin. Germany of 2012 is hardly the Soviet Union of 1956 or 1968.
What makes you think we don't blame our leaders?
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 10:10:14 AM
Yeah. So low that this flat tripled its value while salaries went up less than 40%.
So when you say that Germany should experience some of the same inflation you had, you think the Eurozone problems would be fixed by a real estate bubble in Germany? That's retarded.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 10:14:42 AM
What makes you think we don't blame our leaders?
Get new leaders then. You just did a few weeks ago, no?
Or will you just say again that your two-party system stops you from actually getting really new leaders?
If Spain's constitution is such an impassable obstacle to save the € you should just be honest about it and leave the EZ. Maybe the rest of us could work it out. :P
Quote from: Zanza on February 04, 2012, 10:15:27 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 10:10:14 AM
Yeah. So low that this flat tripled its value while salaries went up less than 40%.
So when you say that Germany should experience some of the same inflation you had, you think the Eurozone problems would be fixed by a real estate bubble in Germany? That's retarded.
I'm saying that there's no way the EZ is ever going to work when the status quo encourages trade imbalances but doesn't allow for any mechanism to compensate for them.
Quote from: Zanza on February 04, 2012, 10:19:24 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 10:14:42 AM
What makes you think we don't blame our leaders?
Get new leaders then. You just did a few weeks ago, no?
Or will you just say again that your two-party system stops you from actually getting really new leaders?
Sadly, it does. Several million voted for alternative parties including yours truly. None came anywhere near the two main ones. Not even close to the socialists that lost almost half their previous voters.
Quote
If Spain's constitution is such an impassable obstacle to save the € you should just be honest about it and leave the EZ. Maybe the rest of us could work it out. :P
We will.
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Seems to me y'all need to get rid of the Clearing House mechanism, the one Joan talked about a while back. Countries that are running current account deficits *should* see a decrease in money supply.
Not sure I understand Eurobonds. All countries pool their national debts and then everyone jointly liable for it? What does that do?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2012, 01:22:59 PM
Not sure I understand Eurobonds. All countries pool their national debts and then everyone jointly liable for it? What does that do?
The Juncker and German wise men proposal is that basically debt up to 60% of GDP is issued jointly and currently mutualised. So everyone's jointly liable for that much (excluding EFSF nations - Greece, Portugal and Ireland). Those bonds have senior status.
Any subsequent debt they wish to incur countries can issue their own bonds for which they're solely liable and which are, inevitably, more risky because the debt's higher and they don't have senior status. This would be happening as well as the austerity and debt reduction plans that are ongoing.
It would increase the borrowing costs for a country like Germany, I think the Commission estimated by about 1%, but would substantially reduce the rates for countries like Spain or even Italy. And cutting the cost of borrowing is a huge help for those countries, they're not insolvent the Italians have primary surplus and I think a helpful support while they're going through the austerity process. It's been argued that this would be cheaper and more of a long-term solution for the creditor nations than the current crisis-last minute summit-bailout cycle. I think that's probably true. The ESM looks a bit more long-term than the EFSF, but barely.
Edit: Interestingly Monti recently said that he and Merkel clearly disagreed on Eurobonds, but once countries are cutting their deficits and the debt rules are imposed he hopes Europe, especially Germany, will look at the issue again 'more serenely'.
QuoteGermany, puppet master of Europe? I've missed that memo.
Enda Kenny was interviewed by a German paper. He was asked if he spoke German and replied 'no, but my children are learning' :lol:
QuoteI think no one, not even them, know what their exact suggestions are. That's the problem with "stimulating demand". Demand is not something a heavily indebted government can just create out of thin air.
I think it is. I think the real thing that we need to be able to do is stimulate demand in the short-term while showing clear medium-term commitment to deficit reduction. I like Martin Wolf's suggestion, in the UK context, that we keep cutting ongoing programs (I'd add health as well, it shouldn't be ringfenced) and keep going with the deficit reduction but use the extraordinarily low interest rates to finance something like temporary payroll or VAT tax cut, or infrastructure spending. Basically keep on cutting permanent government spending which will hopefully fix long-term problems but in a clearly time-limited way cut taxes or spend money on infrastructure. He was aiming at the US debate with that and I can't see them going for it - I blame the Democrats.
The difficulty is even if you have that sort of policy, which I'd like, is how you could ever do it in a Eurozone context. How can Germany stimulate demand in a way that helps Italy? It's again the problem of too little integration happening prior to the Euro.
QuoteWhat's the ECB's role in Eurobonds? I thought the idea was mutualizing government debt.
I think you'd need a Eurozone wide institution to issue them and to control them (ie. tell governments when they've reached the Eurobond limit) and probably to regulate them as collateral, but I'm not sure on that. I think the ECB would probably be better placed to do that than any other EU bodies.
QuoteMaybe it was just not reported in the media I read, but I have not heard anybody from Spain or wherever publicly suggesting that we should change the EU treaty that explicitely forbids the ECB buying bonds. Without such a treaty change, the ECB bankers would overstep their mandate.
The Greek bailout was legally justified by treaty provision for helping countries suffering from natural disasters, because bailouts aren't legal in the EU treaties. I'm fairly sure I've read some legal workarounds for that treaty provision. I mean they ECB are effectively buying bonds now. Via the banks which is probably against the spirit of the treaty. They're just not doing enough.
QuoteThat's a possiblity. But if an open-ended, unlimited fiscal transfer or imperial administrators being sent from Brussels to right Greece's economy or the central bank losing its independence and mandate not to finance governments is what it takes to keep it together, I am not sure if that price isn't too high.
I take your point and sort of agree. I think my view is that this is to some extent an existential crisis for the Euro and all countries need to decide quite how much the Euro is worth - which is perhaps different from how much can voters take. It may be that the price is too high.
QuoteSeems to me y'all need to get rid of the Clearing House mechanism, the one Joan talked about a while back. Countries that are running current account deficits *should* see a decrease in money supply.
How does this work though?
Edit: My uni has prize essays in each of the subjects. The EU law question: 'Does a Member State within the eurozone lose the right to be a Member State of the EU if it gives up the euro?' :lol:
Interesting notion Shelf, and not as ridiculous as I had imagined when I first heard of Eurobonds. I see two problems however.
First, a country can still default on its senior debt, leaving the other member states on the hook.
Second, investors would realize that any potential haircut would fall on a smaller base, meaning risk premiums would rise even higher on the junior debt.
Yes but it would take some time to issue over 60% of GDP in debt, so that might grant some breathing room to Italy. Spain, having much less debt, would in theory be in an even better position.
That been said, it would take more than Eurobonds to kickstart Spain into growth again. On that front, the government has just announced that banks will need to provision another 50 billion € before the end of the year. That means even less credit.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 03:30:38 PM
Yes but it would take some time to issue over 60% of GDP in debt, so that might grant some breathing room to Italy. Spain, having much less debt, would in theory be in an even better position.
That been said, it would take more than Eurobonds to kickstart Spain into growth again. On that front, the government has just announced that banks will need to provision another 50 billion € before the end of the year. That means even less credit.
Are we talking about additional debt equalling 60% of GDP
on top of existing debt?? That can't be right. Surely it means of existing debt, that portion up to 60% of GDP gets the Euroguarantee.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2012, 03:15:01 PM
First, a country can still default on its senior debt, leaving the other member states on the hook.
That's true. There'd still presumably be the ESM which will be €500 billion which is still too small, though that may not help.
But we're talking after repeated bailouts of member states. I'm not seeing a solution that allows member states in general to get off the hook if there's a default.
And as I say the goal of Eurobonds is to lower borrowing costs for the solvent countries facing debt challenges - Belgium, Italy, Spain - not the potentially insolvent (PIG). It would only happen in the context of current and future austerity and the required constitutionalisation of debt limits. So those conditions address the immediate issue of debt in the medium term while Eurobonds provide a solution to borrowing costs in the short term, after which, debt will have been reduced significantly anyway.
QuoteSecond, investors would realize that any potential haircut would fall on a smaller base, meaning risk premiums would rise even higher on the junior debt.
This is already a huge issue at the moment. None of the treaties or solutions proposed so far really settle the issue of the seniority of ECB held bonds. From what I understand in Greece the ECB is claiming a position like that of the IMF but that's not legally clear and politicians generally don't support it. This hasn't been addressed yet by any of the Eurosummits or treaties, that could be another reason the ECB prefers to buy up government debt indirectly by easy loans to Eurozone banks.
Also the ESM has been given senior debt status equal to the IMF I think. I'm not sure what the status is of the EFSF.
There is a real danger that Europe's dangerously overcomplicating this.
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2012, 01:08:03 PM
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1. Wrong thread.
2. Too expensive.
3. Too big.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2012, 03:34:34 PM
Are we talking about additional debt equalling 60% of GDP on top of existing debt?? That can't be right. Surely it means of existing debt, that portion up to 60% of GDP gets the Euroguarantee.
No. It's 60% of GDP total. I think Spain's only at 60% now so if they could somehow mutualise that to take advantage of lower borrowing costs it would have a huge impact.
But existing or future debt. So if Estonia (national debt of about 20%) was to have a crisis, new treaty and the required constitutional changes permitting, they'd have a lot of room before they had to start facing the market alone.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
But we're talking after repeated bailouts of member states. I'm not seeing a solution that allows member states in general to get off the hook if there's a default.
There's a difference between being on the hook for however much has been lent out to the PIIGS already and all debt of all member states up to 60% of GDP.
QuoteAnd as I say the goal of Eurobonds is to lower borrowing costs for the solvent countries facing debt challenges - Belgium, Italy, Spain - not the potentially insolvent (PIG).
This was my second objection. It's possible it won't lower borrowing costs for troubled members because default risk would be heightened on the junior debt.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2012, 03:34:34 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on February 04, 2012, 03:30:38 PM
Yes but it would take some time to issue over 60% of GDP in debt, so that might grant some breathing room to Italy. Spain, having much less debt, would in theory be in an even better position.
That been said, it would take more than Eurobonds to kickstart Spain into growth again. On that front, the government has just announced that banks will need to provision another 50 billion € before the end of the year. That means even less credit.
Are we talking about additional debt equalling 60% of GDP on top of existing debt?? That can't be right. Surely it means of existing debt, that portion up to 60% of GDP gets the Euroguarantee.
:huh:
It doesn't make sense to classify current debt as Eurobond-debt. You won't get any benefit from joint liability that way. The most logical way is for governments to issue new bonds as they do now, mostly when previous debt matures. Until they reached 60% of GDP those would benefit from lower interest rates. Once all previous debt matured you'd have only low-interest Eurobond and high-interest crappy bonds. Hopefully long-term solutions would be in place by then and outlook positive enough to affect yields.
I see what you're saying. Although a lot of debt carries shorter maturities so it might not take that long to re-classify debt equalling 60% of GDP.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2012, 03:47:48 PMThere's a difference between being on the hook for however much has been lent out to the PIIGS already and all debt of all member states up to 60% of GDP.
Well all that they're on the hook for now and in the future for the PIIGS.
But as I say given the treaty and required constitutional amendments it should become almost impossible for a country to go bankrupt. But again that's part of the more long-term solution that's being designed.
It would depend a lot on the country, yes. IIRC Spain has to issue about half a trillion € worth in 2012. That would mean a respite of a bit over a year, which would be helpful.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 04, 2012, 03:58:23 PM
I see what you're saying. Although a lot of debt carries shorter maturities so it might not take that long to re-classify debt equalling 60% of GDP.
Yeah. I think it could be done relatively quickly through necessary refinancing over the next few years. I think Italy's got a huge amount coming in 2012.
Quote
Leaders at Davos Put Spotlight on Europe's Biggest Burden
By:Carolin Roth | CNBC
CNBC.com | Thursday, 24 Jan 2013 | 10:43 AM ET
Business leaders, politicians and labor organizations warned on Thursday that urgent action needs to be taken to prevent Europe's youth from becoming a lost generation, a development which could have severe social consequences.
New unemployment data out of Spain released on Thursday served as a stark reminder of the fundamental structural problems of some of Europe's hardest-hit economies. Spanish unemployment rose to a record high of 26 percent in the final quarter of the year, leaving some 6 million Spaniards without a job. Youth unemployment rose to a staggering 60 percent, a new record.
"The thing that we have to find even better and quicker solutions for is youth unemployment. I think that has a chance of cracking the social fabric. When you look at 40 percent unemployment for the under 28-year olds – that's something that we can't continue to go forward with," Muhtar Kent, Chairman and CEO of Coca-Cola told CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos on Thursday.
Asked how to fix the youth unemployment problem, Kent told CNBC that it is key to" reform the education system quicker to address the gaps of capabilities between what the businesses need today and what the universities are providing".
German Chancellor Angela Merkel told delegates at the Forum that "our big burden right now is youth unemployment in Europe."
"Whoever is willing to step up to the plate and give at least a small contribution to opening up a perspective to young people, I can only invite you do this in Europe. We welcome anyone with open arms who gives some hope to young people," she said.
Guy Ryder, the director general of the International Labor Organization told CNBC that the "impacts of the [Spanish unemployment levels] are catastrophic and it is very difficult to image what the social consequences of this are".
Ryder added that the notion of a "lost generation sounds like a cliche, but it's a reality for the youth in Europe."
Ryder also warned against the danger of complacency given the optimism in the markets based on the expectation that Europe has turned a corner: "We have to be very,very careful that we don't exclusively focus on the financial aspects, but now more than ever we need to pay much greater attention to the jobs situation."
Earlier this week, the Geneva-based UN jobs agency ILO (International Labor Organization) said global unemployment levels could top the record levels of 2009. According to the ILO's "Global Employment Trends 2013" report, global unemployment will rise by 5.1 million in to more than 202 million in 2013 and could increase by another 3 million in 2014.
The CEO of Adecco, the world's biggest staffing company said the group's key markets, such as Germany, France and the U.S. "may return to growth in second half of the year, but the first six months will still be very, very tough".
"We haven't made progress yet, unemployment will further increase in the next couple of months, especially in Europe, even though it is holding up pretty well in U.S.but as far as Europe is concerned, it will rise further unfortunately," Patrick de Maeseneire told CNBC in Davos.
"But I hope that we will be going for the 2009 scenario again, where industrial employment picked up in the summer."
On Thursday, more news of job cuts came when the Wall Street Journal reported that British bank Barclays was cutting 15 percent of its investment banking staff across Asia.This follows widespread cuts in the banking sector by virtually all global investment banks to respond to a tougher regulatory and market environment.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100404713 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100404713)
Quote
Spain unemployment rate hit a record: youth rate at 55%
Spanish unemployed Spain's unemployment rate is twice the EU average
Spain's unemployment rate has hit a modern day record, and joblessness among young people has topped 55%.
Official data showed that the jobless rate in the last three months of 2012 rose 1% to 26%, or 5.97 million people.
The figure, the highest since the mid-1970s, follows Spain's prolonged recession and deep spending cuts.
The impact has been acute for 16 to 24-year-olds, who saw the rate in the last quarter of 2012 surge to 55.13% from 52.34% in the previous three months.
Spain's economy sank into recession after its property crash left millions of low-skilled workers without a job, and general economic decline eroded business and consumer confidence.
"We haven't seen the bottom yet and employment will continue falling in the first quarter," said Jose Luis Martinez, strategist at investment bank Citigroup.
The figures, from the National Statistics Institute, mean Spain's jobless rate is twice the European Union average.
The unemployment numbers will be a blow for Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's government, which was last year forecasting a jobless rate of 24.6% by the end of 2012.
When Mr Rajoy took office in late 2011 there were 5.27 million people unemployed in Spain.
Youth unemployment continues to be a cause for concern across the European Union, not just Spain.
Tackling youth unemployment across the 27-nation bloc has become a serious issue for governments and policymakers.
Italy's prime minister Mario Monti, said on Thursday that the current challenge was to "bring new life to the economy, and the first ones to benefit will be the youth".
Italy's unemployment rate is 11%, and 37% among young people. He said that young people were being helped into work by measures such as awarding tax relief to companies employing 16-24-year-olds and changes to increase labour market flexibility.
But he said improvements were being impeded by some trade unions' resistance to change.
Eurostat, the EU's statistics body, estimates that last November there were 5.8 million people (23.7%) aged under 25 unemployed in the 27 countries, of whom 3.73 million (24.4%) were in the eurozone area.
For last November, the lowest rates were in Germany (8%), Austria (9%) and the Netherlands (9.7 %), and the highest was in Greece 57.6 % (September 2012 figure) and Spain (56.5%).
However, many economists have wondered if the jobless data exaggerates the problem.
Jobless numbers include economically inactive people, including young people who are in education.
Some experts argue that youth unemployment is better and more accurately represented by using a ratio, calculated as the share of total number unemployed.
This reduces the extent of youth unemployment, although the figures remain high.
Eurostat estimated that for the last three months of 2011, the ratio of youth unemployed was 19%, the highest in the EU (9.1%) and ahead of Greece (13%), UK (12.4%), Portugal (11.7%), and Germany (4.5%).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21180371 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21180371)
Should we fear the youth? :!:
Yet bizzarely the trend these days seems to be to raise the retirement age....
Quote from: Tyr on January 25, 2013, 03:31:46 AM
Yet bizzarely the trend these days seems to be to raise the retirement age....
More working old people creates more jobs.
And take away their pensions.
I look forward to the imminent socialist revolutions in Europe. :)
Quote from: Iormlund on February 03, 2012, 12:53:50 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on February 02, 2012, 07:19:36 PM
Presumably your law firm is hiring lawyers, so we're not talking about former infantry men but people who were military lawyers. What's wrong with them?
They enlisted instead of joining a top firm after getting their degree?
That's says nothing about their competency or ability.
No... because Europe is too boring right now. :sleep:
To be fair, Spanish, Greek and Italian men would be living with their mothers until they were 40 whatever the unemployment situation.
The UK expression is NEET - not in employment, education or training.
Hardy old people in Iceland? Lazy old people in Slovak Republic. <_<
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/older-but-not-yet-retired/ (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/older-but-not-yet-retired/)
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Man I hope alot of those over 65s are Electrical Engineers planning on retirement two years from now :P