Well I don't approve of this kind of suppression of speech, I find Turkey's indignation hilarious.
Frogs Tell The Turks To Fuck Off (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jwR5BVHv1BSofO30ARYDxpOSN_uw?docId=99463311e72e4b83ac0e6a649418a8c1)
QuoteFrench lawmakers pass genocide law on Armenians
By ELAINE GANLEY, Associated Press – 12 minutes ago
PARIS (AP) — Despite strong protests by Turkey, French lawmakers easily passed a measure Thursday to make it a crime in France to deny that the mass killings of Armenians in 1915 amounted to a genocide.
There was no official vote count in the ballot in France's lower house of parliament since lawmakers simply voted by raising their hands. The measure now goes to the Senate, where its fate is less clear.
The measure could put France on a collision course with Turkey, a strategic ally and trading partner that says the conflict nearly 100 years ago should be left to historians.
France formally recognized the killings as genocide in 2001, but provided no penalty for anyone denying that. The bill sets a punishment of up to one year in prison and a fine of euro45,000 ($59,000) for those who deny or "outrageously minimize" the killings by Ottoman Turks, putting such action on a par with denial of the Holocaust.
Lawmakers denounced what they called Turkey's propaganda effort in a bid to sway them.
"Laws voted in this chamber cannot be dictated by Ankara," said Jean-Christophe Lagarde, a deputy from the New Center party, as Turks demonstrated outside the National Assembly ahead of the vote.
The bill's author said she was "shocked" at the attempt to interfere with the parliament's work.
"My bill doesn't aim at any particular country," said Valerie Boyer, a deputy from the ruling conservative UMP party. "It is inspired by European law, which says that the people who deny the existence of the genocides must be sanctioned."
President Nicolas Sarkozy's conservative government backed the measure despite the ire — and threats — of Turkey.
An initial bid to punish denial of the Armenian genocide failed earlier this year, killed by the Senate five years after it was passed by the lower house.
Turkey, which vehemently rejects the term "genocide," has campaigned to get France to abandon the legislation, threatening to withdraw its ambassador and warning of "grave consequences" to economic and political ties.
French authorities have stressed the importance of bilateral ties with Turkey and the key role it plays in sensitive strategic issues as a member of NATO, in Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
However, Sarkozy has long opposed the entry into the European Union of mostly Muslim Turkey, putting a constant strain on the two nations' ties.
Turkey says with the measure France will be tampering with freedom of expression by denying people the right to say what they think. Turkish authorities attribute the action to a bid by Sarkozy's party for short-term political gains ahead of spring presidential and legislative elections.
Turkish authorities have weighed in with caustic remarks about France's past. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has recalled France's colonial history in Algeria and a 1945 massacre there, as well as its role in Rwanda, where some have claimed a French role in the 1994 genocide there.
"Those who do want to see genocide should turn around and look at their own dirty and bloody history," Erdogan said last weekend. "Turkey will stand against this intentional, malicious, unjust and illegal attempt through all kinds of diplomatic means."
Turkish President Abdullah Gul spoke out on the issue this week, saying it will "put France in a position of a country that does not respect freedom of expression and does not allow objective scientific research."
Turkey insists the mass killings of Armenians — up to 1.5 million, historians estimate — occurred during civil unrest as the Ottoman Empire collapsed, with losses on both sides. Historians contend the Armenians were massacred in the first genocide of the 20th century.
France is pressing Turkey to own up to its history for the sake of "memory" just as the French have officially recognized the role of their state — the collaborationist Vichy government — in the deportation of Jews to Nazi death camps during World War II.
In October, Sarkozy visited Armenia and its capital of Yerevan, urging Turkey to recognize the 1915 killings as genocide.
"Turkey, which is a great country, would honor itself by revisiting its history like other countries in the world have done," Sarkozy said.
France, however, took its own time recognizing the state's role in the Holocaust. It was not until 1995 that then-President Jacques Chirac proclaimed France's active role in sending its citizens to death camps. And it was only in 2009 that his historic declaration was formally recognized in a ruling by France's top body, the Council of State.
Catherine Gaschka contributed to this article.
The Associated Press
There's so much wrong with these laws it's not even funny.
:lol: I await the natural successor laws concerning Australia/Britain's genocide against the Aborigines, America's against the Indians, Germany's against the Herero, Britain's against Ireland, etc. It will make historical scholarship a lot more practicable.
There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.
I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:03:43 AM
I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."
FUCK NORTH CAROLINA.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:03:43 AM
I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."
I like it. Hopefully all historical controversies will eventually be resolved via legislation.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:52:04 AM
There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.
:lol: "Suppressing freedom of expression in an act of craven political pandering to bigots? What could possibly be objectionable about that?"
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 09:07:38 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:03:43 AM
I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."
I like it. Hopefully all historical controversies will eventually be resolved via legislation.
I am petitioning my legislature for a law criminalizing the denial that slavery "was the cause" of the American Civil War.
EDIT: I'm also urging Sweden to adopt the "Hortlund Act" criminalizing the denial of Albert Speer's participation in the Holocaust.
Sorry guys, but you are all well meaning idiots.
Everybody sane agrees that what Turks did to Armenians was a genocide, just as everybody sane agrees that Holocaust happened. This is not something that is a subject of a vivid historical dispute.
Instead, an obvious lie (denial of Armenian genocide, or Holocaust, respectively) is a political tool used by unsavoury political entities (the Turkish regime and nazis, respectively - and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).
If I published a "historical" book claiming that Valmy's mother was a whore, this would have as much to do with the "freedom of historical research" as the antics of the Holocaust or Armenian genocide deniers - and I see no reason why both cases should be treated differently.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:17:18 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:52:04 AM
There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.
:lol: "Suppressing freedom of expression in an act of craven political pandering to bigots? What could possibly be objectionable about that?"
This is Marti. He is from Poland. They don't have a clue about freedom of speech, though they loudly claim that they do.
Euros are so funny when they act as though their gag laws on discussions of the Holocaust are the most natural things in the world, and then also claim that Americans are goofy for pointing out when the Euro Free Speech Emperor has no robes.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
Sorry guys, but you are all well meaning idiots.
Everybody sane agrees that what Turks did to Armenians was a genocide, just as everybody sane agrees that Holocaust happened. This is not something that is a subject of a vivid historical dispute.
Instead, an obvious lie (denial of Armenian genocide, or Holocaust, respectively) is a political tool used by unsavoury political entities (the Turkish regime and nazis, respectively - and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).
If I published a "historical" book claiming that Valmy's mother was a whore, this would have as much to do with the "freedom of historical research" as the antics of the Holocaust or Armenian genocide deniers - and I see no reason why both cases should be treated differently.
:lmfao:
No, you don't get freedom of speech at all. No surprise. You've probably never seen it, or, if you
have seen it, never recognized it and instead thought it "well-meaning idiocy."
I am glad we have free speech in this country at least, and that you intend never to come here and see it in action.
Edit: I forgot to thank you for the moronic analogy. Couldn't be more absurd or inapplicable. Thanks. :cool:
You guys have to understand that Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are not the holy grail of European liberalism. We have had different historical experiences and while we consider these two rights to be important, they are not paramount - we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.
For the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).
God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:28:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).
God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.
Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. You are in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:26:44 AM
You guys have to understand that Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are not the holy grail of European liberalism.
I would not that that should read " European pseudo-liberalism" because you are no more a liberal than you are a genius. And it is good that freedom isn't your holy grail, because you don't know it when you see it.
I know European liberals. European liberals were my friends. You are no European liberal.
QuoteWe have had different historical experiences and while we consider these two rights to be important, they are not paramount - we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.
And this is why you are not only not a liberal, but blind to what liberals think. You believe that opposing viewpoints should be gagged for political reasons. No actual liberal would consider this for a moment.
QuoteFor the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.
Since the first two are not positions that anyone actually holds (insofar as I am aware) and that latter (popular input to curricula) is so common-sense, I think you should clarify that "us" in this sentence is you alone.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:26:44 AM
we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.
Because clearly without this law the Front National would be dominating French politics.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:49:37 AM
Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. You are in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.
I'd say your eagerness to gag opposing points of view for political reasons ("we would rather gag [them] than let them win elections") is far more like "China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus" than Mihali's putative use of the death penalty is.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 08:39:36 AM
:lol: I await the natural successor laws concerning Australia/Britain's genocide against the Aborigines, America's against the Indians, Germany's against the Herero, Britain's against Ireland, etc. It will make historical scholarship a lot more practicable.
Or that the War of the Vendee was a Genocide. When that was suggested a few years back it seemed to rankle a few in the French establishment. The Soviets used the war of he Vendee as a model for what they wanted to do to the Cossacks.
When my grandmother was a child in Nova Scotia, her mother forced her to eat all her broccoli with the phrase "Remember the starving Armenians!"
Of course, at that point my grandmother had no idea who the Armenians were, or why she ought to eat broccoli in their honour.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 10:22:10 AM
Or that the War of the Vendee was a Genocide. When that was suggested a few years back it seemed to rankle a few in the French establishment. The Soviets used the war of he Vendee as a model for what they wanted to do to the Cossacks.
Are we going to redefine genocide as 'doing something really really shitty to people'? I thought it was an attempt to exterminate a people. The War in the Vendee was more comparable to Roman style pacification (and all the brutality that goes with that) then attempting to exterminate a population.
Besides the Republic lost something like 20,000 men of their own during the fighting. Was that something the Soviets were hoping to achieve? I guess given how they fought their wars it probably was.
But yeah I guess I couldn't even have this conversation about the Armenians anymore without being a criminal :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:28:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).
God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.
Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. Yoare in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.
:lol: Or what? You gonna make me?
I am not talking in my capacity as a representative for the US. Not sure when you became French or were appointed The Voice Of Europe, but congrats. :cheers:
Aiming the death penalty comment at me is particularly amusing.
The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.
Naturally I'm in agreement with the Americans on this one; I don't like jailing people simply for being dickheads, apart from anything else it is impracticable to jail half the population.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.
Naturally I'm in agreement with the Americans on this one; I don't like jailing people simply for being dickheads, apart from anything else it is impracticable to jail half the population.
The German statesman called Adolf Hitler disagrees with you
Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?I'm not a great fan of these laws but it's far from being the worst, this title goes to the Taubira law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taubira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taubira)
QuoteChristiane Taubira gave her name to the 21 May 2001 law which recognizes the Atlantic slave trade and slavery as a crime against humanity. In 2002, she was a Left Radical Party (PRG) candidate for the presidency although she did not belong to the party. She gained 2.32% of the votes. After 2002, she became vice-president of the Left Radical Party. She was elected again as deputy on 16 June 2002, and joined the socialist group in the Assembly.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
When my grandmother was a child in Nova Scotia, her mother forced her to eat all her broccoli with the phrase "Remember the starving Armenians!"
Of course, at that point my grandmother had no idea who the Armenians were, or why she ought to eat broccoli in their honour.
i remember telling my mother i'd gladly mail my brussel sprouts to africa if it meant i didn't have to eat them :lol:
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on December 22, 2011, 10:55:11 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.
Naturally I'm in agreement with the Americans on this one; I don't like jailing people simply for being dickheads, apart from anything else it is impracticable to jail half the population.
The German statesman called Adolf Hitler disagrees with you
Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?
I'm not a great fan of these laws but it's far from being the worst, this title goes to the Taubira law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taubira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taubira)
QuoteChristiane Taubira gave her name to the 21 May 2001 law which recognizes the Atlantic slave trade and slavery as a crime against humanity. In 2002, she was a Left Radical Party (PRG) candidate for the presidency although she did not belong to the party. She gained 2.32% of the votes. After 2002, she became vice-president of the Left Radical Party. She was elected again as deputy on 16 June 2002, and joined the socialist group in the Assembly.
But isn't there a kind of categorical difference between laws that "recognize" historical events and those that criminalize speech that doesn't accord with the state's definition of an historical event?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 11:00:51 AM
But isn't there a kind of categorical difference between laws that "recognize" historical events and those that criminalize speech that doesn't accord with the state's definition of an historical event?
There is, but the latter follows the former generally after some time. Both are memorial laws, though.
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
When my grandmother was a child in Nova Scotia, her mother forced her to eat all her broccoli with the phrase "Remember the starving Armenians!"
Of course, at that point my grandmother had no idea who the Armenians were, or why she ought to eat broccoli in their honour.
i remember telling my mother i'd gladly mail my brussel sprouts to africa if it meant i didn't have to eat them :lol:
Little children lack empathy ... or are able to spot a bullshit argument. Your choice. :D
It was the starving Indians who would , apparently, have been delighted to eat my overcooked watery vegetables :bowler:
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 10:22:10 AM
Or that the War of the Vendee was a Genocide. When that was suggested a few years back it seemed to rankle a few in the French establishment. The Soviets used the war of he Vendee as a model for what they wanted to do to the Cossacks.
Are we going to redefine genocide as 'doing something really really shitty to people'? I thought it was an attempt to exterminate a people. The War in the Vendee was more comparable to Roman style pacification (and all the brutality that goes with that) then attempting to exterminate a population.
Besides the Republic lost something like 20,000 men of their own during the fighting. Was that something the Soviets were hoping to achieve? I guess given how they fought their wars it probably was.
But yeah I guess I couldn't even have this conversation about the Armenians anymore without being a criminal :lol:
Putting the Japanese in camps during WWII is "Doing something really, really shitty to people". I rather think that the Vendee goes a bit beyond that. If we can count what the Soviets did as genoicide (as the case is often made), then we should consider the Vendee a genocide as well.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:52:04 AM
There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.
You Poles are funny when your President decides to slam his plane into the ground in Russia.
Or when you fail to have a first world economy. Or when you have gay-bashing parades in Warsaw.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 11:28:53 AM
Putting the Japanese in camps during WWII is "Doing something really, really shitty to people". I rather think that the Vendee goes a bit beyond that. If we can count what the Soviets did as genoicide (as the case is often made), then we should consider the Vendee a genocide as well.
Yeah I don't. I see no evidence the effort was to exterminate the people of Vendee. It was to 'pacify' them. Again it was a war, lots of people got killed on both sides. And if the Japanese Americans had risen up with a partisan army to support the Japanese Empire the way they people of Vendee rose up to support the Royalists I think you would have seen something similar here.
For the record, I like edgy and angry Mihali
Quote from: PDH on December 22, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
For the record, I like edgy and angry Mihali
You might be singing a different tune if you had ever been the target of his furor hebraicus.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 12:05:03 PM
And if the Japanese Americans had risen up with a partisan army to support the Japanese Empire the way they people of Vendee rose up to support the Royalists I think you would have seen something similar here.
What if they rose up to protest the conditions they were forced into?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2011, 12:22:37 PM
Quote from: PDH on December 22, 2011, 12:20:58 PM
For the record, I like edgy and angry Mihali
You might be singing a different tune if you had ever been the target of his furor hebraicus.
:blush: I'm trying to be more mellow.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 01:10:15 PM
:blush: I'm trying to be more mellow.
:thumbsup:
But Peedy says he likes it. You should go all Maccabee on him.
Quote from: garbon on December 22, 2011, 12:45:26 PM
What if they rose up to protest the conditions they were forced into?
They certainly could have, if there were more of them and they were more concentrated. But even if they had I doubt it would have been with the symbols of the Japanese Empire, whie the Vendee was using explicitely pro-Royal symbols.
That was rather unfortunate because in the actual event Vendee was not very friendly to the coalition either IIRC it was more against the anti-clerical actions by the Republic than really pro-Bourbon but it was enough to freak the central government out.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2011, 01:16:31 PM
But Peedy says he likes it. You should go all Maccabee on him.
It's the reason for the season!
These laws are indeed a bit ridiculous. This one in particular smacks of electioneering.
On the other hand, I like Armenians and dislike the Turk, so fuck them. :)
"We're recalling our ambassador!"
Oh noes.
Quote from: Zoupa on December 22, 2011, 01:29:33 PM
On the other hand, I like Armenians and dislike the Turk, so fuck them. :)
The only Armenians i "know" are the Kardasians... so, yeah, i hope they all burn.
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 22, 2011, 01:29:33 PM
On the other hand, I like Armenians and dislike the Turk, so fuck them. :)
The only Armenians i "know" are the Kardasians... so, yeah, i hope they all burn.
There's also this moderately well known Armenian band (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJmt3dr9XYQ)
Quote from: HVC on December 22, 2011, 01:30:42 PM
Quote from: Zoupa on December 22, 2011, 01:29:33 PM
On the other hand, I like Armenians and dislike the Turk, so fuck them. :)
The only Armenians i "know" are the Kardasians... so, yeah, i hope they all burn.
What about System of a Down?
Edit: Syt'ed.
Aren't the Belushis Armenian?
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.
The concept was
invented to describe what happened to the Armenians! :D
I am probably a bit more sensitive than most to this concept, given that, growing up, my best friend was of Armenian extraction, and I had many meals at his house, in which his grandmother, a survivor of the Armenian Genocide, would describe what happened. Armen's family was certainly not in support of the then-somewhat-popular leftist description of the event as "the Armenian Holocaust," though - for the very reason you note.
damn my slow ass google-fu
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smnnews.com%2FWP%2Fwp-content%2Fsystem-of-a-down1.jpg&hash=02f1d9465695282fad96c45175e11d9e1ca0a20f)
Yet another success for the realignment of Turkish Alliances and Relations by the AKP.
I suppose France will now join the USA and start making ritual annual condemnations of the Armenian Genocide while the Turks turn their Foreign Ministry into a Genocide Denial Institution.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 01:58:50 PM
Albanian, iirc.
You sure? I thought the in-joke in Wag the Dog was that everyone thought they were Albanian but they're really Armenian.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 08:39:36 AM
:lol: I await the natural successor laws concerning Australia/Britain's genocide against the Aborigines, America's against the Indians, Germany's against the Herero, Britain's against Ireland, etc. It will make historical scholarship a lot more practicable.
None of those Genocides have been, as the french put it, outrageously denied. The Anglo-Saxon response has been, "Yes we did it and we are very sorry about it." The German Response has been "Hottentots? Oh, yes, they are 29th in magnitude of our list of genocides. We were hoping that since there aren't any left nobody would bring that up. Besides the Universe will reach heat death before we can move on from being sorry about the jews and move on to the Gypsies."
This law isn't about punishing a present population of a country for the acts comitted by the government of that country many generations ago. It is about lies, truth, hate and reality.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2011, 02:04:19 PM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 01:58:50 PM
Albanian, iirc.
You sure? I thought the in-joke in Wag the Dog was that everyone thought they were Albanian but they're really Armenian.
Nope, Wiki says Albanian.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 01:17:25 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 22, 2011, 12:45:26 PM
What if they rose up to protest the conditions they were forced into?
They certainly could have, if there were more of them and they were more concentrated. But even if they had I doubt it would have been with the symbols of the Japanese Empire, whie the Vendee was using explicitely pro-Royal symbols.
That was rather unfortunate because in the actual event Vendee was not very friendly to the coalition either IIRC it was more against the anti-clerical actions by the Republic than really pro-Bourbon but it was enough to freak the central government out.
They were using explicitly Catholic symbols because their religion was being suppressed. They later shifted to Royalist and Catholic Symbols. It's unfortunate because he central government was vicious, blood thirsty and paranoid at the time. A government that is putting people on barges and then sinking them because of their religion is committing genocide.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 04:22:12 PM
They were using explicitly Catholic symbols because their religion was being suppressed. They later shifted to Royalist and Catholic Symbols. It's unfortunate because he central government was vicious, blood thirsty and paranoid at the time. A government that is putting people on barges and then sinking them because of their religion is committing genocide.
So you are just going to ignore all my points and just keep saying 'it's a genocide' over and over again hoping that will convince me?
The central government thought they would allow the coalition to land and restore the monarchy so they reacted brutally. Just like the English government did when they thought the Irish were going to open the door to the Spanish. In retrospect they were probably mistaken. But as you say paranoia was really ruling the day in Paris. For not completely insane reasons, but reasons of their own making: their dealings with the Catholic Church.
Quote from: grumbler on December 22, 2011, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.
The concept was invented to describe what happened to the Armenians! :D
I am probably a bit more sensitive than most to this concept, given that, growing up, my best friend was of Armenian extraction, and I had many meals at his house, in which his grandmother, a survivor of the Armenian Genocide, would describe what happened. Armen's family was certainly not in support of the then-somewhat-popular leftist description of the event as "the Armenian Holocaust," though - for the very reason you note.
Heh, you are right (I checked), though in my defence I suspect that less than 1% of the population would know that.
Interesting that your friend managed to maintain his objectivity on the matter despite what happened, he must have been a fine fellow.
Quote from: The Larch on December 22, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
What about System of a Down?
I wish the turk would gas them.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 04:38:51 PM
So you are just going to ignore all my points and just keep saying 'it's a genocide' over and over again hoping that will convince me?
Why would he change tactics now? :huh:
QuoteThe central government thought they would allow the coalition to land and restore the monarchy so they reacted brutally. Just like the English government did when they thought the Irish were going to open the door to the Spanish. In retrospect they were probably mistaken. But as you say paranoia was really ruling the day in Paris. For not completely insane reasons, but reasons of their own making: their dealings with the Catholic Church.
I don't think it was possible for them to have any dealings with the Church that were not hostile, at that point, because the Church had aligned itself so closely to absolutism. There was nothing inherently anti-Catholic about the Civil Constitution of the Clergy; it didn't go nearly so far as, say, the British Act of Supremacy and the Dissolution of the Monasteries.
I'd argue, though, that acts of Carrier
were insane, and some of the orders of the Committee of Public Safety were, as well. The fact that pretty much everyone involved was executed by the government in 1794-95 tells us that my arguments were not mine alone.
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 04:38:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 04:22:12 PM
They were using explicitly Catholic symbols because their religion was being suppressed. They later shifted to Royalist and Catholic Symbols. It's unfortunate because he central government was vicious, blood thirsty and paranoid at the time. A government that is putting people on barges and then sinking them because of their religion is committing genocide.
So you are just going to ignore all my points and just keep saying 'it's a genocide' over and over again hoping that will convince me?
The central government thought they would allow the coalition to land and restore the monarchy so they reacted brutally. Just like the English government did when they thought the Irish were going to open the door to the Spanish. In retrospect they were probably mistaken. But as you say paranoia was really ruling the day in Paris. For not completely insane reasons, but reasons of their own making: their dealings with the Catholic Church.
What fantasies the Central government entertained are irrelevant. It does not matter if they think they will bring back the King, or because they fear they will pollute their pure bloodlines, or because they think they Martians in disguise. When a government commits crimes like this they always
think they are justified. It is the action that matters, not the excuses. The actions of the French government go well beyond simple war and even repression.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 22, 2011, 04:54:07 PM
Interesting that your friend managed to maintain his objectivity on the matter despite what happened, he must have been a fine fellow.
It was his father, mother, and grandmother who maintained the objectivity, especially about what the Jews suffered. Interestingly the dad, Avedis, was born and grew up in Palestine, so had some interesting views on the Middle East, as well.
Those dinner conversations are some of my favorite memories. Avedis was the best devil's advocate I ever met.
Oh, and found this very descriptive tribute to him (not that anyone but me really cares): http://intqhc.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/6/451.full.pdf
Correct, no one cares.
Quote from: grumbler on December 22, 2011, 09:22:51 AM
This is Marti. He is from Poland. They don't have a clue about freedom of speech, though they loudly claim that they do.
Well, why should freedom of speech be different than any other subject?
Quote from: grumblerQuote from: MartinusFor the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.
Since the first two are not positions that anyone actually holds (insofar as I am aware) and that latter (popular input to curricula) is so common-sense, I think you should clarify that "us" in this sentence is you alone.
Excuse me, but some of us do support capital punishment. (And the right to own guns, but given the qualifier, I don't have a problem with that part of your statement)
Quote from: grumblerI'd say your eagerness to gag opposing points of view for political reasons ("we would rather gag [them] than let them win elections") is far more like "China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus" than Mihali's putative use of the death penalty is.
Agree.
Quote from: HVCThe only Armenians i "know" are the Kardasians... so, yeah, i hope they all burn.
I don't know the Kardasians (and from what I know
iof them, I'm glad of that). OTOH, I used to like to watch
Mannix, and Mike Connors is Armenian, so I guess Armenians are OK in my book.
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
OTOH, I used to like to watch Mannix, and Mike Connors is Armenian, so I guess Armenians are OK in my book.
Gadzooks!
And when I was in France in 1987 Mannix was the #1`show on TV, so the subject has come full circle.
Ah, the French. So sophisticated.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mondo-video.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2FJerry_Lewis.jpg&hash=97686ed9818e91518d4ad986cc31176de4d44a3d)
Yes, I pulled the old France loves Jerry Lewis thing out of my butt. Soak in it.
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
Excuse me, but some of us do support capital punishment. (And the right to own guns, but given the qualifier, I don't have a problem with that part of your statement)
Do you tout it though? I'm pretty okay but I don't go about touting it.
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
Excuse me, but some of us do support capital punishment.
I haven't heard anyone here "tout" it, though. Look the word up. It's the word Marti used.
Edit: Beaten by Garbo. Point stands, though. But maybe I'm making too big a deal over Marti's choice of words in a language wherein he isn't a native speaker.
Still, plenty of Euro liberals have supported the DP in the past, so Marti is wrong there, as well.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 05:20:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 04:38:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 04:22:12 PM
They were using explicitly Catholic symbols because their religion was being suppressed. They later shifted to Royalist and Catholic Symbols. It's unfortunate because he central government was vicious, blood thirsty and paranoid at the time. A government that is putting people on barges and then sinking them because of their religion is committing genocide.
So you are just going to ignore all my points and just keep saying 'it's a genocide' over and over again hoping that will convince me?
The central government thought they would allow the coalition to land and restore the monarchy so they reacted brutally. Just like the English government did when they thought the Irish were going to open the door to the Spanish. In retrospect they were probably mistaken. But as you say paranoia was really ruling the day in Paris. For not completely insane reasons, but reasons of their own making: their dealings with the Catholic Church.
What fantasies the Central government entertained are irrelevant. It does not matter if they think they will bring back the King, or because they fear they will pollute their pure bloodlines, or because they think they Martians in disguise. When a government commits crimes like this they always think they are justified. It is the action that matters, not the excuses. The actions of the French government go well beyond simple war and even repression.
I agree, their actions went well beyond brutal oppression and crossed the line into genocide.
What people were they trying to eliminate?
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2011, 08:06:36 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 05:20:54 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 22, 2011, 04:38:51 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 04:22:12 PM
They were using explicitly Catholic symbols because their religion was being suppressed. They later shifted to Royalist and Catholic Symbols. It's unfortunate because he central government was vicious, blood thirsty and paranoid at the time. A government that is putting people on barges and then sinking them because of their religion is committing genocide.
So you are just going to ignore all my points and just keep saying 'it's a genocide' over and over again hoping that will convince me?
The central government thought they would allow the coalition to land and restore the monarchy so they reacted brutally. Just like the English government did when they thought the Irish were going to open the door to the Spanish. In retrospect they were probably mistaken. But as you say paranoia was really ruling the day in Paris. For not completely insane reasons, but reasons of their own making: their dealings with the Catholic Church.
What fantasies the Central government entertained are irrelevant. It does not matter if they think they will bring back the King, or because they fear they will pollute their pure bloodlines, or because they think they Martians in disguise. When a government commits crimes like this they always think they are justified. It is the action that matters, not the excuses. The actions of the French government go well beyond simple war and even repression.
I agree, their actions went well beyond brutal oppression and crossed the line into genocide.
You win, Valmy! If Timmay and Raz agree you are wrong, you are most certainly right. :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 22, 2011, 08:08:03 PM
What people were they trying to eliminate?
This is Timmay. He thinks that, when the Patriots lose, that is genocide.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 11:28:53 AM
Putting the Japanese in camps during WWII is "Doing something really, really shitty to people". I rather think that the Vendee goes a bit beyond that.
You would be wrong.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 22, 2011, 08:06:36 PM
I agree, their actions went well beyond brutal oppression and crossed the line into genocide.
Translation:
"I don't know what genocide means, but I think it's like something really bad."
The next step would be 'neogenocide'.
Martinus' idea of liberalism that he can do whatever he wants, but anybody who calls him a braindead faggot who makes the Kaczynski look like smart Poles by comparison would get the death penalty.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 22, 2011, 08:08:03 PM
What people were they trying to eliminate?
I would say Catholicism. Closing up the Churches and executing the priests and nuns does give that impression.
Quote from: Neil on December 22, 2011, 08:19:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 11:28:53 AM
Putting the Japanese in camps during WWII is "Doing something really, really shitty to people". I rather think that the Vendee goes a bit beyond that.
You would be wrong.
When did you start siding with regicides?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 08:33:11 PM
I would say Catholicism. Closing up the Churches and executing the priests and nuns does give that impression.
Catholicism's not a people. Assuming you mean Catholics in the Vendee, did they succeed?
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 22, 2011, 08:34:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 08:33:11 PM
I would say Catholicism. Closing up the Churches and executing the priests and nuns does give that impression.
Catholicism's not a people. Assuming you mean Catholics in the Vendee, did they succeed?
Nope, they gave up I think. I'm not sure you have to eliminate everyone to count as genocide. For instance forcing everyone to convert or die could be a form of genocide since you are destroying a population. You are changing a population from one religion to another (or no religion), rather then changing the a population into compost and ashes, but the effect is the same. The previous population isn't there anymore.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 08:38:45 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 22, 2011, 08:34:37 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 08:33:11 PM
I would say Catholicism. Closing up the Churches and executing the priests and nuns does give that impression.
Catholicism's not a people. Assuming you mean Catholics in the Vendee, did they succeed?
Nope, they gave up I think. I'm not sure you have to eliminate everyone to count as genocide. For instance forcing everyone to convert or die could be a form of genocide since you are destroying a population. You are changing a population from one religion to another (or no religion), rather then changing the a population into compost and ashes, but the effect is the same. The previous population isn't there anymore.
Was the Spanish Inquisition a genocide?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 08:33:34 PM
Quote from: Neil on December 22, 2011, 08:19:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 11:28:53 AM
Putting the Japanese in camps during WWII is "Doing something really, really shitty to people". I rather think that the Vendee goes a bit beyond that.
You would be wrong.
When did you start siding with regicides?
I didn't. That said, what happened in the Vendee would qualify as 'something shitty'. You're overplaying your hand.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 08:38:45 PM
Nope, they gave up I think. I'm not sure you have to eliminate everyone to count as genocide.
The goal of a genocide is to eliminate a people. The French Republic won but didn't eliminate Vendeean Catholics. That's becaue their goal was never to commit a genocide, but to put down an uprising. Once that goal had been achieved they stopped - in contrast with what we could expect of other genocidal regimes through history.
There's no doubt war crimes were committed - by both sides - but I'd characterise the Vendee as a very brutal, predominately class based civil war not an attempted genocide.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 08:42:12 PM
Was the Spanish Inquisition a genocide?
Well, not as such, but I think the expulsions and forced conversions that surrounded it would qualify. The Spanish Inquisition was a search for relapsed Jews and Muslims. It only had authority over Christians and worked on a much smaller scale then it sometimes surmised.
I'll wager there are more Armenians then Catholics in the Vendee today. :D But the French government conflated disloyalty with Catholicism. That is a common characteristic of genocide. They did change policy after they stopped making these types of mistakes, but if they hadn't they would have ended up like the Don Cossacks. Lenin himself referred to the Don Cossacks as their own version of the Vendee.
Quote from: grumbler on December 22, 2011, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
Excuse me, but some of us do support capital punishment.
I haven't heard anyone here "tout" it, though. Look the word up. It's the word Marti used.
I've stated that I think that the death penalty should be the standard punishment for murder. I think that can be contrused as promoting it. Granted, I don't generally bring it up unless crime and punishment are already the topic under discussion.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 10:42:23 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 22, 2011, 09:28:55 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).
God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.
Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. Yoare in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.
:lol: Or what? You gonna make me?
I am not talking in my capacity as a representative for the US. Not sure when you became French or were appointed The Voice Of Europe, but congrats. :cheers:
Aiming the death penalty comment at me is particularly amusing.
Maybe he got me and you confused.
You prison-loving monster. :P
I've been confusing you two, because of your new avatar Ide.
Yeah, me, Mihali, Sheilbh, even you. It's like black-and-white is the new thing on the Languish Left. We just need Jacob to switch to monochrome and we're good.
Afaik, I'm the only one of the Dems/whatever they have in Airstrip One, Labor I guess who supports extension of the death penalty though. On the other hand, I'm the only one who's ever actually been inside a jail. So there's that. -_-
Quote from: Ideologue on December 23, 2011, 12:52:35 AM
Yeah, me, Mihali, Sheilbh, even you. It's like black-and-white is the new thing on the Languish Left. We just need Jacob to switch to monochrome and we're good.
I keep thinking your posts are coming from Martinus
Quote from: Maximus on December 23, 2011, 01:29:30 AM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 23, 2011, 12:52:35 AM
Yeah, me, Mihali, Sheilbh, even you. It's like black-and-white is the new thing on the Languish Left. We just need Jacob to switch to monochrome and we're good.
I keep thinking your posts are coming from Martinus
And then you realize they're well-reasoned and apposite? I'm sure that's what you meant to add.
Quote from: Ideologue on December 23, 2011, 12:52:35 AM
On the other hand, I'm the only one who's ever actually been inside a jail. So there's that. -_-
Been incarcerated inside a jail. :P I've spent plenty of time inside of jails and prisons, but so far I've been able to leave every night, thank Christ.
Quote from: Ideologue on December 23, 2011, 12:52:35 AM
Yeah, me, Mihali, Sheilbh, even you. It's like black-and-white is the new thing on the Languish Left.
You left out Martinus and Grumbler.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2011, 09:00:44 PM
But the French government conflated disloyalty with Catholicism. That is a common characteristic of genocide. They did change policy after they stopped making these types of mistakes, but if they hadn't they would have ended up like the Don Cossacks. Lenin himself referred to the Don Cossacks as their own version of the Vendee.
I don't think Lenin's view matters. From a Marxist perspective the French Revolution was a massive lesson for the revolutionaries in Russia, so it's hardly surprising that they'll interpret their actions through the prism of the French revolution.
I think you over-estimate the impact of the Catholicism and ideology in the Vendee. It is, from my reading, the only part of the French Revolution I'd consider to be predominately about class and religion was an important part of that. Basically the Vendee splits into two areas.
You've got a hill and mountain area that's overwhelmingly peasant and generally speaking tenant farmers for nobility. They have, even before the revolution, a sort-of communitarian (almost Medieval) Catholicism that focused on devotion to certain relics, pilgrimages, very localised saints' days and so on. That sort of religion produces a very strong communal identity.
In the plains you have a different sort of peasantry. There are large towns and the peasants to a large extent are tenants of sort-of gentry figures or do a lot of trade with the bourgeoisie. There's more education and more development. The old style of Catholicism was very weak, the austere Cure had arrived in this region. Their Church was far more influenced by 18th century rationalist Jansenism. That was a weaker association, less of a communitarian identity and there was more sympathy with the Republic and a 'national' set of values.
To an extent certain Catholicisms were, therefore, a signifier to the Republic of a rebellious area.
But the class aspect is, I think, core.
It's also worth remembering that the history of the Vendee is very contentious. A large number of the stories of atrocities are now generally disbelieved. They were early 19th century Bourbon propaganda. More recent research (by which I just mean 20th century) also note the brutality of the revolt - in one village alone 500 National Guardsmen and sympathisers were tied into groups of four and shot into mass graves. Both sides were engaged in an extremely brutal civil war. The only difference really was that the Republic's brutality was successfully sustained and ultimately victorious.
So arguing it's a genocide seems to muddy the water in my view, both of the history of the Vendee and of genocide in general. If this is genocide, it's difficult to see what civil war or political violence isn't. I think the word would become so watered as to be almost meaningless.
You Europeans are far to obsessed with class. I've read these arguments from the French, but I think it has more to do with French pride and refusal to admit that the 1st French Republic was a bloodthirsty monstrosity.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2011, 02:39:38 AM
You Europeans are far to obsessed with class. I've read these arguments from the French, but I think it has more to do with French pride and refusal to admit that the 1st French Republic was a bloodthirsty monstrosity.
Ignoring class in the French revolution is madness. As I say I don't think it's central as some interpretations would say, but the Vendee is unusually class based.
I believe the Revolution's still a hugely contentious issue in France. In terms of history you've got such elegant partisans as Taine, Michelet and de Tocqueville.
That's carried on into the modern day. There's still a division between the liberal left and the right on the subject of the Revolution. Marxist analysis still carries a great deal of weight but is undermined by writers like Furet. In addition French historians have analogised the Terror with the Khmer Rouge and Soviet Russia. All of which I can go along with to some extent.
But I draw the line at the, many, French historians who describe bloodthirstiness as being in the 'chromosomes of the Revolution', the ones who suggest a 'Franco-French genocide' in the Vendee, or those who, on the eve of the bicentenary, said the only appropriate celebration would be to drink a cup of human blood.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on December 22, 2011, 11:38:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 08:52:04 AM
There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.
You Poles are funny when your President decides to slam his plane into the ground in Russia.
Or when you fail to have a first world economy. Or when you have gay-bashing parades in Warsaw.
What gay-bashing parades in Warsaw? And what's that jab about our economy? It's pretty good.
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 10:27:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 22, 2011, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
Excuse me, but some of us do support capital punishment.
I haven't heard anyone here "tout" it, though. Look the word up. It's the word Marti used.
I've stated that I think that the death penalty should be the standard punishment for murder. I think that can be contrused as promoting it. Granted, I don't generally bring it up unless crime and punishment are already the topic under discussion.
Wow, you consider yourself a Christian. :lol:
You just go to prove that religious zealots are irredeemable no matter what decent front they try to project. I hope you and your family die in a fire so these genes don't propagate.
I really respect you Sheilbh, but I don't think I'll ever understand you.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2011, 06:18:13 AM
I really respect you Sheilbh, but I don't think I'll ever understand you.
That's because I've never seen you change your mind about anything discussed here on this board. I don't know if that's because of your condition, but it makes it disheartening to argue with you.
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:26:44 AM
You guys have to understand that Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are not the holy grail of European liberalism. We have had different historical experiences and while we consider these two rights to be important, they are not paramount - we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.
For the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.
... and the worst thing is most people in
Europe Poland think your attitude is actually liberal :yuk: you fuckin euronazi
Quote from: Zoupa on December 23, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2011, 06:18:13 AM
I really respect you Sheilbh, but I don't think I'll ever understand you.
That's because I've never seen you change your mind about anything discussed here on this board. I don't know if that's because of your condition, but it makes it disheartening to argue with you.
Don't see what Raz's 'condition' has to do with it, as you've just described the majority of posters here. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on December 23, 2011, 03:21:06 AM
..... I hope you and your family die in a fire so these genes don't propagate.
just because yours won't :lol:
Quote from: Zoupa on December 23, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 23, 2011, 06:18:13 AM
I really respect you Sheilbh, but I don't think I'll ever understand you.
That's because I've never seen you change your mind about anything discussed here on this board. I don't know if that's because of your condition, but it makes it disheartening to argue with you.
You could watch me closer. I change my mind about shit. For instance, I didn't think the Libyan adventure was going to be a good idea. Turns out I was wrong. Happy me! I'm not Fahdiz where I change religions, wives, and political philosophies at the drop of a hat, no.
Quote from: szmik on December 24, 2011, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: Martinus on December 22, 2011, 09:26:44 AM
You guys have to understand that Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are not the holy grail of European liberalism. We have had different historical experiences and while we consider these two rights to be important, they are not paramount - we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.
For the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.
... and the worst thing is most people in Europe Poland think your attitude is actually liberal :yuk: you fuckin euronazi
The Fundies aren't really that bad. And we've had precious few actual Nazis elected. In fact, our freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion has really deterred excesses by Fundies or potential Nazis. Sure bad apples get elected from time to time, but the beauty of it is, they can't do that much harm and we can toss them out on their ass.
Quote from: Martinus on December 23, 2011, 03:21:06 AM
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 10:27:22 PM
Quote from: grumbler on December 22, 2011, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: dps on December 22, 2011, 06:25:44 PM
Excuse me, but some of us do support capital punishment.
I haven't heard anyone here "tout" it, though. Look the word up. It's the word Marti used.
I've stated that I think that the death penalty should be the standard punishment for murder. I think that can be contrused as promoting it. Granted, I don't generally bring it up unless crime and punishment are already the topic under discussion.
Wow, you consider yourself a Christian. :lol:
You just go to prove that religious zealots are irredeemable no matter what decent front they try to project. I hope you and your family die in a fire so these genes don't propagate.
You've never shown any real knowledge of what non-Catholic Christians actually believe or think--which, to be fair, isn't easy, because there exists such diversity within Christianity that it's hard to make any a lot of statements that would generally be applicable. But then, that's kind of the point--you don't seem to realize that Christians--even fundamentalists--
aren't a monolithic bloc that all think alike. At any rate, given your prejudices, you're about the last person whose opinion about whether or not I'm a good Christian would matter to anyone.
For the record, there are plenty of other Christians in America--including other fundamentalists--who agree with me. And also plenty of atheists, and people of pretty much all other religious backgrounds. OTOH, there are plenty of other Christians here--including other fundamentalists--who are completely opposed to the death penalty, as well as plenty of atheists and people of almost all other religious/spiritual outlooks. Most people here, regardless of their faith (or lack thereof) are somewhere in between in their view of capital punishment.
Quote from: szmik on December 24, 2011, 03:19:19 PM
just because yours won't :lol:
Why would you assume that? Terribly easy for him to / many homosexuals have had children.
Not even all Catholics think a like. I think Marty has accepted some kind of stereotype about Polish Catholics and assumes that fits most if not all Catholics worldwide. Hell, it may not even fit all Catholics in Poland.