French lawmakers pass genocide law on Armenians

[jimmy olsen]

Well I don't approve of this kind of suppression of speech, I find Turkey's indignation hilarious.

Frogs Tell The Turks To Fuck Off

French lawmakers pass genocide law on Armenians

By ELAINE GANLEY, Associated Press – 12 minutes ago

PARIS (AP) — Despite strong protests by Turkey, French lawmakers easily passed a measure Thursday to make it a crime in France to deny that the mass killings of Armenians in 1915 amounted to a genocide.

There was no official vote count in the ballot in France's lower house of parliament since lawmakers simply voted by raising their hands. The measure now goes to the Senate, where its fate is less clear.

The measure could put France on a collision course with Turkey, a strategic ally and trading partner that says the conflict nearly 100 years ago should be left to historians.

France formally recognized the killings as genocide in 2001, but provided no penalty for anyone denying that. The bill sets a punishment of up to one year in prison and a fine of euro45,000 ($59,000) for those who deny or "outrageously minimize" the killings by Ottoman Turks, putting such action on a par with denial of the Holocaust.

Lawmakers denounced what they called Turkey's propaganda effort in a bid to sway them.

"Laws voted in this chamber cannot be dictated by Ankara," said Jean-Christophe Lagarde, a deputy from the New Center party, as Turks demonstrated outside the National Assembly ahead of the vote.

The bill's author said she was "shocked" at the attempt to interfere with the parliament's work.

"My bill doesn't aim at any particular country," said Valerie Boyer, a deputy from the ruling conservative UMP party. "It is inspired by European law, which says that the people who deny the existence of the genocides must be sanctioned."

President Nicolas Sarkozy's conservative government backed the measure despite the ire — and threats — of Turkey.

An initial bid to punish denial of the Armenian genocide failed earlier this year, killed by the Senate five years after it was passed by the lower house.

Turkey, which vehemently rejects the term "genocide," has campaigned to get France to abandon the legislation, threatening to withdraw its ambassador and warning of "grave consequences" to economic and political ties.

French authorities have stressed the importance of bilateral ties with Turkey and the key role it plays in sensitive strategic issues as a member of NATO, in Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

However, Sarkozy has long opposed the entry into the European Union of mostly Muslim Turkey, putting a constant strain on the two nations' ties.

Turkey says with the measure France will be tampering with freedom of expression by denying people the right to say what they think. Turkish authorities attribute the action to a bid by Sarkozy's party for short-term political gains ahead of spring presidential and legislative elections.

Turkish authorities have weighed in with caustic remarks about France's past. Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan has recalled France's colonial history in Algeria and a 1945 massacre there, as well as its role in Rwanda, where some have claimed a French role in the 1994 genocide there.

"Those who do want to see genocide should turn around and look at their own dirty and bloody history," Erdogan said last weekend. "Turkey will stand against this intentional, malicious, unjust and illegal attempt through all kinds of diplomatic means."

Turkish President Abdullah Gul spoke out on the issue this week, saying it will "put France in a position of a country that does not respect freedom of expression and does not allow objective scientific research."

Turkey insists the mass killings of Armenians — up to 1.5 million, historians estimate — occurred during civil unrest as the Ottoman Empire collapsed, with losses on both sides. Historians contend the Armenians were massacred in the first genocide of the 20th century.

France is pressing Turkey to own up to its history for the sake of "memory" just as the French have officially recognized the role of their state — the collaborationist Vichy government — in the deportation of Jews to Nazi death camps during World War II.

In October, Sarkozy visited Armenia and its capital of Yerevan, urging Turkey to recognize the 1915 killings as genocide.

"Turkey, which is a great country, would honor itself by revisiting its history like other countries in the world have done," Sarkozy said.

France, however, took its own time recognizing the state's role in the Holocaust. It was not until 1995 that then-President Jacques Chirac proclaimed France's active role in sending its citizens to death camps. And it was only in 2009 that his historic declaration was formally recognized in a ruling by France's top body, the Council of State.

Catherine Gaschka contributed to this article.

The Associated Press

[The Brain]

There's so much wrong with these laws it's not even funny.

[Capetan Mihali]

   I await the natural successor laws concerning Australia/Britain's genocide against the Aborigines, America's against the Indians, Germany's against the Herero, Britain's against Ireland, etc.  It will make historical scholarship a lot more practicable.

[Martinus]

There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.

[Capetan Mihali]

I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."

[Ed Anger]

I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."

FUCK NORTH CAROLINA.

[Valmy]

I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."

I like it.  Hopefully all historical controversies will eventually be resolved via legislation.

[Capetan Mihali]

There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.

  "Suppressing freedom of expression in an act of craven political pandering to bigots?  What could possibly be objectionable about that?"

[Capetan Mihali]

I hope North Carolina and Ohio respectively make it a crime to claim that the other was: "first in flight."

I like it.  Hopefully all historical controversies will eventually be resolved via legislation.

I am petitioning my legislature for a law criminalizing the denial that slavery "was the cause" of the American Civil War.

EDIT:  I'm also urging Sweden to adopt the "Hortlund Act" criminalizing the denial of Albert Speer's participation in the Holocaust.

[Martinus]

Sorry guys, but you are all well meaning idiots.

Everybody sane agrees that what Turks did to Armenians was a genocide, just as everybody sane agrees that Holocaust happened. This is not something that is a subject of a vivid historical dispute.

Instead, an obvious lie (denial of Armenian genocide, or Holocaust, respectively) is a political tool used by unsavoury political entities (the Turkish regime and nazis, respectively - and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).

If I published a "historical" book claiming that Valmy's mother was a whore, this would have as much to do with the "freedom of historical research" as the antics of the Holocaust or Armenian genocide deniers - and I see no reason why both cases should be treated differently.

[grumbler]

There are already laws like this in most of Europe when it comes to Holocaust, so not sure why it is so strange to pass some laws when it comes to other genocidal murders of a comparable magnitude. Plus this is obviously a political move before the upcoming presidential elections to fuck with the muslims/Turks as this is the general sentiment in France right now. Nothing to see here really. You Americans are funny when you get all excited about stuff like this.

  "Suppressing freedom of expression in an act of craven political pandering to bigots?  What could possibly be objectionable about that?"

This is Marti.  He is from Poland.  They don't have a clue about freedom of speech, though they loudly claim that they do.

Euros are so funny when they act as though their gag laws on discussions of the Holocaust are the most natural things in the world, and then also claim that Americans are goofy for pointing out when the Euro Free Speech Emperor has no robes.

[grumbler]

Sorry guys, but you are all well meaning idiots.

Everybody sane agrees that what Turks did to Armenians was a genocide, just as everybody sane agrees that Holocaust happened. This is not something that is a subject of a vivid historical dispute.

Instead, an obvious lie (denial of Armenian genocide, or Holocaust, respectively) is a political tool used by unsavoury political entities (the Turkish regime and nazis, respectively - and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).

If I published a "historical" book claiming that Valmy's mother was a whore, this would have as much to do with the "freedom of historical research" as the antics of the Holocaust or Armenian genocide deniers - and I see no reason why both cases should be treated differently.

No, you don't get freedom of speech at all.  No surprise.  You've probably never seen it, or, if you have seen it, never recognized it and instead thought it "well-meaning idiocy."

I am glad we have free speech in this country at least, and that you intend never to come here and see it in action.

Edit:  I forgot to thank you for the moronic analogy.  Couldn't be more absurd or inapplicable.  Thanks. 

[Martinus]

You guys have to understand that Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are not the holy grail of European liberalism. We have had different historical experiences and while we consider these two rights to be important, they are not paramount - we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.

For the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.

[Capetan Mihali]

and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).

God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.

[Martinus]

and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).

God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.

Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. You are in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.