French lawmakers pass genocide law on Armenians

[grumbler]

You guys have to understand that Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are not the holy grail of European liberalism.

I would not that that should read " European pseudo-liberalism" because you are no more a liberal than you are a genius.  And it is good that freedom isn't your holy grail, because you don't know it when you see it.

I know European liberals.   European liberals were my friends.  You are no European liberal.

We have had different historical experiences and while we consider these two rights to be important, they are not paramount - we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.

And this is why you are not only not a liberal, but blind to what liberals think.  You believe that opposing viewpoints should be gagged for political reasons.  No actual liberal would consider this for a moment.

For the record, you sound equally insane to us when you tout death penalty, unrestricted gun ownership or the parents' right to affect school curricula.

Since the first two are not positions that anyone actually holds (insofar as I am aware) and that latter (popular input to curricula) is so common-sense, I think you should clarify that "us" in this sentence is you alone. 

[Valmy]

we would rather gag nazis and fundies than let them win elections, thank you very much.

Because clearly without this law the Front National would be dominating French politics.

[grumbler]

Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. You are in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.

I'd say your eagerness to gag opposing points of view for political reasons ("we would rather gag [them] than let them win elections") is far more like "China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus" than Mihali's putative use of the death penalty is.

[Razgovory]

  I await the natural successor laws concerning Australia/Britain's genocide against the Aborigines, America's against the Indians, Germany's against the Herero, Britain's against Ireland, etc.  It will make historical scholarship a lot more practicable.

Or that the War of the Vendee was a Genocide.  When that was suggested a few years back it seemed to rankle a few in the French establishment.  The Soviets used the war of he Vendee as a model for what they wanted to do to the Cossacks.

[Malthus]

When my grandmother was a child in Nova Scotia, her mother forced her to eat all her broccoli with the phrase "Remember the starving Armenians!"

Of course, at that point my grandmother had no idea who the Armenians were, or why she ought to eat broccoli in their honour.

[Valmy]

Or that the War of the Vendee was a Genocide.  When that was suggested a few years back it seemed to rankle a few in the French establishment.  The Soviets used the war of he Vendee as a model for what they wanted to do to the Cossacks.

Are we going to redefine genocide as 'doing something really really shitty to people'?  I thought it was an attempt to exterminate a people.  The War in the Vendee was more comparable to Roman style pacification (and all the brutality that goes with that) then attempting to exterminate a population.

Besides the Republic lost something like 20,000 men of their own during the fighting.  Was that something the Soviets were hoping to achieve?  I guess given how they fought their wars it probably was.

But yeah I guess I couldn't even have this conversation about the Armenians anymore without being a criminal 

[Capetan Mihali]

and in fact Turkey actually penalizes people who claim the Armenian genocide happened).

God knows Europe should be eager to follow the Turkish model of civil rights.

Dude, I told you, lay off that crap. Yoare in the same camp as China, Saudi Arabia and Belarus for using death penalty. You really have no room to criticise Europe for civil rights record.

  Or what?  You gonna make me?

I am not talking in my capacity as a representative for the US.  Not sure when you became French or were appointed The Voice Of Europe, but congrats. 

Aiming the death penalty comment at me is particularly amusing.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.

Naturally I'm in agreement with the Americans on this one; I don't like jailing people simply for being dickheads, apart from anything else it is impracticable to jail half the population.

[Duque de Bragança]

The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.

Naturally I'm in agreement with the Americans on this one; I don't like jailing people simply for being dickheads, apart from anything else it is impracticable to jail half the population.

The German statesman called Adolf Hitler disagrees with you

Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?

I'm not a great fan of these laws but it's far from being the worst, this title goes to the Taubira law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taubira

Christiane Taubira gave her name to the 21 May 2001 law which recognizes the Atlantic slave trade and slavery as a crime against humanity. In 2002, she was a Left Radical Party (PRG) candidate for the presidency although she did not belong to the party. She gained 2.32% of the votes. After 2002, she became vice-president of the Left Radical Party. She was elected again as deputy on 16 June 2002, and joined the socialist group in the Assembly.

[HVC]

When my grandmother was a child in Nova Scotia, her mother forced her to eat all her broccoli with the phrase "Remember the starving Armenians!"

Of course, at that point my grandmother had no idea who the Armenians were, or why she ought to eat broccoli in their honour.

i remember telling my mother i'd gladly mail my brussel sprouts to africa if it meant i didn't have to eat them

[Capetan Mihali]

The concept of genocide seems to have weakened in recent decades. When I was a kid it was more or less restricted to the Nazis and their attempt to exterminate the Jews. At that time nobody seemed to be in denial at all (in British circles) that the Armenian Massacres (as they were known) or the destruction of the Tasmanians were appalling events, but that both these instances (and many others) were tacitly deemed to lack the purposefulness and 100% nature of the Nazi effort.

Naturally I'm in agreement with the Americans on this one; I don't like jailing people simply for being dickheads, apart from anything else it is impracticable to jail half the population.

The German statesman called Adolf Hitler disagrees with you

Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?

I'm not a great fan of these laws but it's far from being the worst, this title goes to the Taubira law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taubira

Christiane Taubira gave her name to the 21 May 2001 law which recognizes the Atlantic slave trade and slavery as a crime against humanity. In 2002, she was a Left Radical Party (PRG) candidate for the presidency although she did not belong to the party. She gained 2.32% of the votes. After 2002, she became vice-president of the Left Radical Party. She was elected again as deputy on 16 June 2002, and joined the socialist group in the Assembly.

But isn't there a kind of categorical difference between laws that "recognize" historical events and those that criminalize speech that doesn't accord with the state's definition of an historical event?

[Duque de Bragança]

But isn't there a kind of categorical difference between laws that "recognize" historical events and those that criminalize speech that doesn't accord with the state's definition of an historical event?

There is, but the latter follows the former generally after some time. Both are memorial laws, though.

[Malthus]

When my grandmother was a child in Nova Scotia, her mother forced her to eat all her broccoli with the phrase "Remember the starving Armenians!"

Of course, at that point my grandmother had no idea who the Armenians were, or why she ought to eat broccoli in their honour.

i remember telling my mother i'd gladly mail my brussel sprouts to africa if it meant i didn't have to eat them

Little children lack empathy ... or are able to spot a bullshit argument. Your choice. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

It was the starving Indians who would , apparently, have been delighted to eat my overcooked watery vegetables 

[Razgovory]

Or that the War of the Vendee was a Genocide.  When that was suggested a few years back it seemed to rankle a few in the French establishment.  The Soviets used the war of he Vendee as a model for what they wanted to do to the Cossacks.

Are we going to redefine genocide as 'doing something really really shitty to people'?  I thought it was an attempt to exterminate a people.  The War in the Vendee was more comparable to Roman style pacification (and all the brutality that goes with that) then attempting to exterminate a population.

Besides the Republic lost something like 20,000 men of their own during the fighting.  Was that something the Soviets were hoping to achieve?  I guess given how they fought their wars it probably was.

But yeah I guess I couldn't even have this conversation about the Armenians anymore without being a criminal 

Putting the Japanese in camps during WWII is "Doing something really, really shitty to people".  I rather think that the Vendee goes a bit beyond that.  If we can count what the Soviets did as genoicide (as the case is often made), then we should consider the Vendee a genocide as well.