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I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully". That's fucking retarded.

Whatever you think about his contributions to the civilization (or lack thereof) and whether you consider him a visionary or not, whether he was an asshole or not should have no bearing whatsoever on these claims. Some of the greatest people had not entirely agreeable personalities, to put it mildly, but our society seems to be moving into this insane direction, with "bullying" being treated like a crime.

Discuss.

I'll remember your dislike of picking on bullies when the next glittertard hangs itself because he/she/it was picked on.

Quote from: Ed Anger on October 25, 2011, 04:25:40 PM
I'll remember your dislike of picking on bullies when the next glittertard hangs itself because he/she/it was picked on.

Not really. In fact I'm annoyed by the fucking pussy faggots who call for harsh penalties for the bullies who cause gay suicides.

I am all for harsh penalties for those who perpetrate actual violence. But bullying/harassment should be penalized (if at all) on its own terms (and, unless this is essentially a "psychological torture", should be a misdemeanor at best) - and whether this pushes some weakling to a suicide or not should not enter the picture.

The guy who taped his roommate having sex with another guy and published it online should probably face some penalty for breach of privacy/unlawful recording/publishing of sexual act. But these idiots want him to be tried for murder, which is fucking retarded.

It's like an unholy alliance of self-righteous faggots and soccer moms.

Anyway, since you raised the topic of gay suicides, I believe personal psychological make-up is first to blame, followed by family/church/school. Only if these are found blameless you can try to consider blaming the bullies. Noone sane, loved and accepted commits suicide because he or she is picked on at school.

Yeah I do not get what Jobs being a jerk has to do with whether or not he was a great individual.  I guess people want to correlate greatness with being a great role model or something.

Quote from: Valmy on October 25, 2011, 04:35:05 PM
Yeah I do not get what Jobs being a jerk has to do with whether or not he was a great individual.  I guess people want to correlate greatness with being a great role model or something.

Yeah probably but I find this tendency deeply worrying. It already started when for example politicians could no longer be regarded as good leaders if they had mistresses or fucked young men (which would exclude Ceasar, Alexander and most monarchs and popes). Now, they are going after jerks. Soon our civilization's halls of fame will be populated by the likes of Ellen. Yuck.

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 25, 2011, 04:49:51 PM

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-jerk-2011-10

You don't get to be in a position like Jobs unless you're an asshole. It's just the way things are.

Quote from: Valmy on October 25, 2011, 04:35:05 PM
Yeah I do not get what Jobs being a jerk has to do with whether or not he was a great individual.  I guess people want to correlate greatness with being a great role model or something.

I don't see why anyone would argue he was a "great individual" in any case.  He was a one-trick pony; he knew how to design great interfaces for consumer products.  Nothing in that says anything about his "greatness."

The wailing over his death says everything about the wailers, and nothing about him.  The only thing that makes me sad about his death is that he now has no chance to design a product that I would actually buy.  But those odds weren't that great anyway.

Being a jerk should detract from one's image as a "great individual," of course.  No one likes being around jerks, and they add nothing to the world by virtue of their jerkness.  One can still be a jerk and a "great person," of course.  It is just harder, like it is harder to be a "great person" and an anti-semite, or a great person and a spouse-beater.  Mohandas Gandhi was a "great individual" and treated his kids like shit, but he'd have been a greater one if he hadn't beaten his kids.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 25, 2011, 05:09:57 PM

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 25, 2011, 04:49:51 PM

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-jerk-2011-10

Got a cite that actually, you know, says what is claimed?  This one doesn't say anything about questioning Job's "greatness."  Admittedly, the last two slides are broken, but nothing in the first fifteen give any indication the last two will conclude differently.

And the one about "Steve Jobs fired the guy in charge of MobileMe in front of a crowd of Apple employees" doesn't seem to me to be an indictment at all; that's the way businesses work sometimes.

It's not my claim nor my responsibility to prove it. I merely had read that story earlier in the day and decided to put it here. Fight somebody else.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on October 25, 2011, 05:33:36 PM
It's not my claim nor my responsibility to prove it. I merely had read that story earlier in the day and decided to put it here. Fight somebody else.

Okay.  I would just point out that placing it where you did, after quoting someone asking for a cite, misleads the reader into thinking you are responding to a request for a citation.  Since you weren't responding to the post you were quoting, I agree that the fact that your non-response was non-responsive is moot, and you should fight someone else.

Quote from: grumbler on October 25, 2011, 05:30:02 PM
And the one about "Steve Jobs fired the guy in charge of MobileMe in front of a crowd of Apple employees" doesn't seem to me to be an indictment at all; that's the way businesses work sometimes.

You generally want to fire people in private, though.  Only utter dicks needlessly humiliate people in public, and public humiliation is right there at the top of the methods one would use to create a determined and motivated enemy for life.

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:35:00 PM
Noone sane, loved and accepted commits suicide because he or she is picked on at school.

Even if they are consistently picked on to the point where a good part of their waking day is hellish?

Quote from: DGuller on October 25, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
You generally want to fire people in private, though.  Only utter dicks needlessly humiliate people in public, and public humiliation is right there at the top of the methods one would use to create a determined and motivated enemy for life.

I agree that it is generally better to fire people in private.  Sometimes, though, it is not.  This could well have been one of those times.

I don't say it definitely was, which is why I worded my statement as "that's the way businesses work sometimes."  You could argue his tactic failed, because MobileMe was a failure, but I don't see the argument that his tactic was domed to failure and so just an unnecessary "jerk move."

If you want to make an argument about MobileMe, it would probably be better-centered as an argument against Jobs's "greatness" (because it was a flop) not against his "greatness" (because he fired the guy in charge in public).  Absolute accountability is supposed to be Apple's strength as a business.

I like this new, pissed off at everyone, Martinus.

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully". That's fucking retarded.

You should wait for the movie.

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully". That's fucking retarded.

I agree that reading any article about Jobs is retarded.

Quote from: The Brain on October 25, 2011, 07:58:03 PM
I agree that reading any article about Jobs is retarded.

Isn't he still dead?

Jobs is an interesting dude.  I think I have to pick up that biography.

I mean - he was successful like almost nobody else in business.  Some CEOs have had a good run - he had at least three.

But then again - he was a jerk.  He was a real asshole of a boss.  No doubts about that.

But that being said - he never really hid that much either.

And - it's not like he had any other vices.  He wasn't a womanizer.  He didn't gamble.  He didn't abuse people for the fun of it.  He was just an OCD perfectionist.

I admire the guy even though I don't think I like the guy.  But he sure was fascinating.

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 09:33:08 PM
But he sure was fascinating.

Agree on that.  I think his strongest ability was that he knew what not to do; what wasn't worth the time, effort, and diffusion of focus.  It takes a strong will to resist the temptation to hedge bets, and he had that in spades.  That will also probably accounts for a lot of his "jerk" moves (not all of which I think were that "jerkish."

But he also was petty.  That's a lot harder to forgive.

Quote from: grumbler on October 25, 2011, 09:51:25 PM

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 09:33:08 PM
But he sure was fascinating.

Agree on that.  I think his strongest ability was that he knew what not to do; what wasn't worth the time, effort, and diffusion of focus.  It takes a strong will to resist the temptation to hedge bets, and he had that in spades.  That will also probably accounts for a lot of his "jerk" moves (not all of which I think were that "jerkish."

But he also was petty.  That's a lot harder to forgive.

What is hard to forgive is how he treated his first daughter Lisa.  That was more than petty.

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 10:04:59 PM

Quote from: grumbler on October 25, 2011, 09:51:25 PM

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 09:33:08 PM
But he sure was fascinating.

Agree on that.  I think his strongest ability was that he knew what not to do; what wasn't worth the time, effort, and diffusion of focus.  It takes a strong will to resist the temptation to hedge bets, and he had that in spades.  That will also probably accounts for a lot of his "jerk" moves (not all of which I think were that "jerkish."

But he also was petty.  That's a lot harder to forgive.

What is hard to forgive is how he treated his first daughter Lisa.  That was more than petty.

Ripping off Wozniak was pretty bad too.

Quote from: ulmont on October 25, 2011, 10:42:47 PM

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 10:04:59 PM

Quote from: grumbler on October 25, 2011, 09:51:25 PM

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 09:33:08 PM
But he sure was fascinating.

Agree on that.  I think his strongest ability was that he knew what not to do; what wasn't worth the time, effort, and diffusion of focus.  It takes a strong will to resist the temptation to hedge bets, and he had that in spades.  That will also probably accounts for a lot of his "jerk" moves (not all of which I think were that "jerkish."

But he also was petty.  That's a lot harder to forgive.

What is hard to forgive is how he treated his first daughter Lisa.  That was more than petty.

Ripping off Wozniak was pretty bad too.

Meh.  Woz had a brain injury from an auto accident.  While that was a tragedy, it's completely understandable why he was shut out of Apple.

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 11:21:02 PM

Quote from: ulmont on October 25, 2011, 10:42:47 PM

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 10:04:59 PM

Quote from: grumbler on October 25, 2011, 09:51:25 PM

Quote from: Barrister on October 25, 2011, 09:33:08 PM
But he sure was fascinating.

Agree on that.  I think his strongest ability was that he knew what not to do; what wasn't worth the time, effort, and diffusion of focus.  It takes a strong will to resist the temptation to hedge bets, and he had that in spades.  That will also probably accounts for a lot of his "jerk" moves (not all of which I think were that "jerkish."

But he also was petty.  That's a lot harder to forgive.

What is hard to forgive is how he treated his first daughter Lisa.  That was more than petty.

Ripping off Wozniak was pretty bad too.

Meh.  Woz had a brain injury from an auto accident.  While that was a tragedy, it's completely understandable why he was shut out of Apple.

Not the one I mean.  Much earlier:

QuoteJobs returned to Atari [1974-ish] and was assigned to create a circuit board for the game Breakout. According to Atari co-founder Nolan Bushnell, Atari offered $100 for each chip that was eliminated in the machine. Jobs had little interest in or knowledge of circuit board design and made a deal with Wozniak to split the bonus evenly between them if Wozniak could minimize the number of chips. Much to the amazement of Atari, Wozniak reduced the number of chips by 50, a design so tight that it was impossible to reproduce on an assembly line. According to Wozniak, Jobs told Wozniak that Atari gave them only $700 (instead of the offered $5,000) and that Wozniak's share was thus $350.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#cite_ref-breakout_28-0
http://web.archive.org/web/20110612071502/http://www.woz.org/letters/general/91.html

 :lol:

What an asshole.

But again, my claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all. Noone cares if Leonardo da Vinci was a histrionic sugar daddy to urchins or that Isaak Newton was a petty asshole who feuded most of his life with Leibnitz.

Lamenting about the pussification of society might have more credibility if the source wasn't people's bitching about an Apple executive. Cause you know, Macs -> hipster -> wuss. This causation chain will be proven irrevocably when BB starts arguing for legalization of medical marijuana.  :cool:

Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 01:30:37 AM
:lol:

What an asshole.

But again, my claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all. Noone cares if Leonardo da Vinci was a histrionic sugar daddy to urchins or that Isaak Newton was a petty asshole who feuded most of his life with Leibnitz.

See, this is the problem right there. Da Vinci? Newton? Being compared to Jobs?

Jobs was an exceptionally successful BUSINESSMAN.  He knew how to package gadgets and monopolized the market of luxury tech devices on the virtue of arriving there first. I respect his succes, but if we raise him to godhood, what about Rockefeller, the old Murdoch, Gates, Hilton, Ford etc?

Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2011, 02:45:25 AM

Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 01:30:37 AM
:lol:

What an asshole.

But again, my claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all. Noone cares if Leonardo da Vinci was a histrionic sugar daddy to urchins or that Isaak Newton was a petty asshole who feuded most of his life with Leibnitz.

See, this is the problem right there. Da Vinci? Newton? Being compared to Jobs?

Jobs was an exceptionally successful BUSINESSMAN.  He knew how to package gadgets and monopolized the market of luxury tech devices on the virtue of arriving there first. I respect his succes, but if we raise him to godhood, what about Rockefeller, the old Murdoch, Gates, Hilton, Ford etc?

Can you read? I expressly put there a caveat "no matter what you think of Steve Jobs", so some idiot does not come up with a counter like that.

Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 02:54:53 AM

Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2011, 02:45:25 AM

Quote from: Martinus on October 26, 2011, 01:30:37 AM
:lol:

What an asshole.

But again, my claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all. Noone cares if Leonardo da Vinci was a histrionic sugar daddy to urchins or that Isaak Newton was a petty asshole who feuded most of his life with Leibnitz.

See, this is the problem right there. Da Vinci? Newton? Being compared to Jobs?

Jobs was an exceptionally successful BUSINESSMAN.  He knew how to package gadgets and monopolized the market of luxury tech devices on the virtue of arriving there first. I respect his succes, but if we raise him to godhood, what about Rockefeller, the old Murdoch, Gates, Hilton, Ford etc?

Can you read? I expressly put there a caveat "no matter what you think of Steve Jobs", so some idiot does not come up with a counter like that.

How does that make any sense then? "no matter what you think of Steve Jobs, he was great"? que?

Eh, Tamas, much as it pains me, I have to side with Mart here. He says clearly:

Quotemy claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all

So any discussion of his legacy (or anyone else's) should in his opinion focus on his achievements (or lack thereof), not his character. Whether that's how it should be is debatable, of course.

Personally, I'd liken Steve Jobs more to people like Henry Ford than Leonardo DaVinci. :P

Quote from: Syt on October 26, 2011, 03:36:26 AM
Eh, Tamas, much as it pains me, I have to side with Mart here. He says clearly:

Quotemy claim is that no matter what you think about Steve Jobs in terms of his greatness, his personality should not enter the picture at all

So any discussion of his legacy (or anyone else's) should in his opinion focus on his achievements (or lack thereof), not his character.

-when one is being stood on a pedestal as a Great Man his personality should not be ignored

-my original point was that Marty specifically said that if we don't care what kind of person Da Vinci or Newton was, we shouldnt care for Jobs either. Which is wrong on some levels, most notably on the fact of thinking that Jobs contributed to culture and science on the levels of those dudes.

Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2011, 03:45:44 AM
-when one is being stood on a pedestal as a Great Man his personality should not be ignored

-my original point was that Marty specifically said that if we don't care what kind of person Da Vinci or Newton was, we shouldnt care for Jobs either. Which is wrong on some levels, most notably on the fact of thinking that Jobs contributed to culture and science on the levels of those dudes.

And I would note that, when Marti says "Noone [sic] cares" he is really saying only that he doesn't care, and that he lacks the intellectual capability to imagine that there are people who don't think like hie does.

Some people do care about things like personal traits when considering "greatness."  That Marti cannot conceive of this says everything about Marti and nothing about the subject.

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 26, 2011, 01:41:35 AM
Lamenting about the pussification of society might have more credibility if the source wasn't people's bitching about an Apple executive. Cause you know, Macs -> hipster -> wuss. This causation chain will be proven irrevocably when BB starts arguing for legalization of medical marijuana.  :cool:

All fucking potheads should fucking hang.   :mad:

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:31:10 AM
All fucking potheads lawyers should fucking hang.   :mad:

FYPFY.  :showoff:

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:33:36 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:31:10 AM
All fucking potheads lawyerspotheads and grumbler should fucking hang.   :mad:

FYPFY.  :showoff:

:mad:

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:36:59 AM

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:33:36 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:31:10 AM
All fucking potheads lawyerspotheads and grumbler prosecutors and other government employees should fucking hang.   :mad:

FYPFY.  :showoff:

:mad:

:P

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:41:03 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:36:59 AM

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:33:36 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:31:10 AM
All fucking potheads lawyerspotheads and grumbler prosecutors and other government employees grumblersshould fucking hang.   :mad:

FYPFY.  :showoff:

:mad:

:P

:ultra:

Man is there anybody who shouldn't fucking hang?

Don't you get a government pension Grumbler?  I thought you were once a federal employee.

Quote from: Razgovory on October 26, 2011, 08:52:47 AM
Don't you get a government pension Grumbler?  I thought you were once a federal employee.

So you mean grumbler may not be totally serious about wanting all government employees to be executed via hanging?

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 25, 2011, 04:49:51 PM

Quote from: Martinus on October 25, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I read recently an article which claimed that Steve Jobs's "greatness" is questionable because he was a "bully".

Cite?

Still waiting for a reference on this . . .

Quote from: Valmy on October 26, 2011, 09:01:37 AM
So you mean grumbler may not be totally serious about wanting all government employees to be executed via hanging?

True.  I left out "Canadian" in the phrase, assuming that everyone would understand that that was implied.

All this talk about being hung from BB and grumbler must be because they are compensating for something.



:P

Quote from: dps on October 26, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
All this talk about being hung from BB and grumbler must be because they are compensating for something.



:P

For what?

Quote from: The Brain on October 26, 2011, 04:00:16 PM

Quote from: dps on October 26, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
All this talk about being hung from BB and grumbler must be because they are compensating for something.



:P

For what?

No more public hangings. :(

Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2011, 03:45:44 AM-my original point was that Marty specifically said that if we don't care what kind of person Da Vinci or Newton was, we shouldnt care for Jobs either. Which is wrong on some levels, most notably on the fact of thinking that Jobs contributed to culture and science on the levels of those dudes.

Also I think great art and science is kind of about transcending human-ness.  Great businessmen and politicians are normally great because or in spite of their very human flaws.

I don't know if that counts in Jobs's case because this feels a little Princess Diana to me, but maybe it does.

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:44:35 AM

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:41:03 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:36:59 AM

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:33:36 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:31:10 AM
All fucking potheads lawyerspotheads and grumbler prosecutors and other government employees grumblersshould fucking hang.   :mad:

FYPFY.  :showoff:

:mad:

:P

:ultra:

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110619194259%2Fmarvel_dc%2Fimages%2F4%2F4a%2FGrumbler_of_the_Perversiverse_01.png&hash=ad9c6b1c6579e8465d3b6fb045f47ed9d8e4a29e)

:huh:

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:41:03 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:36:59 AM

Quote from: grumbler on October 26, 2011, 08:33:36 AM

Quote from: Barrister on October 26, 2011, 08:31:10 AM
All fucking potheads lawyerspotheads and grumbler prosecutors and other government employees should fucking hang.   :mad:

FYPFY.  :showoff:

:mad:

:P

Concur.

The Perversiverse huh. Never woulda guessed.  :lol:

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 27, 2011, 12:07:18 AM
The Perversiverse huh. Never woulda guessed.  :lol:

I'm going to have to remember that.